ALH Jetta Timing Belt Fiasco

['01Doozel]

Tale as old as time, someone with no VW TDI timing belt experience(myself), tries to replace their timing belt and has issues. Well here we are, and here are my issues.

2001 Jetta with 370,000mi, previous owner replaced timing belt at 316K, I bought at 353K. Water pump started leaking profusely because after a mess of thermostat replacement I ran out of G12 and substituted distilled water, long story short the lack of lubrication killed the pump. I replace the belt with help from my friends. I used the Cam lock and injection pump pin given to me by the previous owner. With a few speed bumps we get it put back together. Crosses fingers, cranks, and voila it runs! Albeit poorly. I thought a VW scanner that I also got from the previous owner would help me set the IP timing, it did not, attempted to do it by ear, no luck. Got it running ok, drove it home 30min with severe lack of power and rolling black smoke. Try messing with the IP again, test driving around the block, starts making terrible noise, get back, set IP timing back where it was before the noise, noise still there.

To me, the noise sounds like an injector with air, I replaced the fuel filter and did fill it with diesel but guess there still could be air in the system. Attached is a video of the noise, I haven’t run it since, it’s been sitting getting ignored for a couple weeks, but I need to get it going. Any help or advice would be appreciated. If it is piston to valve contact I know where a low mileage junkyard engine is for cheap that I may try to use.

 

[Metal Man]

Take it apart as much as you have to to verify the timing. If it's right, then that's a relief. Then reset your pump so it's at the baseline setting. If it's not in time prepare yourself to pull the head.

 

['01Doozel]

Take it apart as much as you have to to verify the timing. If it's right, then that's a relief. Then reset your pump so it's at the baseline setting. If it's not in time prepare yourself to pull the head.

You mean just check to see if the cam is at TDC at the same time as the crank? And how would I go about finding the baseline pump setting? Since I’ve adjusted it now.

 

[Metal Man]

Crank at TDC and both pins installed, the pump and the cam.

 

['01Doozel]

Crank at TDC and both pins installed, the pump and the cam.

If I cannot find the TDC mark on my flywheel what should I do? When I did the TB I couldn’t find the mark and looked for a while. I have a Luk clutch so I’m unsure if it even has the mark. I just made sure the crank never moved while working on it because I never touched it after removing the TB. I know it is improper procedure but I didn’t know what to do without the flywheel mark.

 

[03TDICommuter]

It's hard to find on the Luk clutch. I have a new one in the box, waiting to go in, and looked for the mark. it's a small dimple on the seam weld.

 

['01Doozel]

It's hard to find on the Luk clutch. I have a new one in the box, waiting to go in, and looked for the mark. it's a small dimple on the seam weld.

Thank you! Does that correspond with that ‘0’ stamped on the pressure plate or is that just coincidence?

 

[03TDICommuter]

Thank you! Does that correspond with that ‘0’ stamped on the pressure plate or is that just coincidence?

It does looks like it's right next to the '0', and there is clear space before and after it.

 

[Metal Man]

I always find and mark the flywheel before I remove the belt, that way I know I'm looking for my mark and it's correct. There is a mark on the balancer that lines up with a mark on the top of the lower timing belt cover for TDC.

 

['01Doozel]

I always find and mark the flywheel before I remove the belt, that way I know I'm looking for my mark and it's correct. There is a mark on the balancer that lines up with a mark on the top of the lower timing belt cover for TDC.

Is that the three dots on the balancer? I used those as reference.

 

[Metal Man]

A notch on the balancer lines up with a notch on the tin. It will be something like this.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1338620.jpg

 

[vandermic07]

Cant tell what noise you are referring to.
After verifying timing:
- Check all boost hoses to make sure the are connected. This causes poor power and black smoke.
- Make sure car is heated up before trying to set timing. VDCS will tell you if temp is not correct.
- sometimes IP timing is pretty far out. my golf was no starting after a guru did the belt. I noticed that it was all the way to one side of the slot. I moved it a little and it fired up but was very smoky and a turd. I took it down the road to heat it up, adjusted the timing and all was good after that. been running for 50k miles with no issues. I think the timing was way retarded but its been a few years.

 

[JohnTF]

" I thought a VW scanner that I also got from the previous owner would help me set the IP timing, it did not "

Need some detail with this statement ?

For air in the fuel system , crack the fuel lines , one at a time , to bleed the system , your can do this with engine running .

 

['01Doozel]

Cant tell what noise you are referring to.
After verifying timing:
- Check all boost hoses to make sure the are connected. This causes poor power and black smoke.
- Make sure car is heated up before trying to set timing. VDCS will tell you if temp is not correct.
- sometimes IP timing is pretty far out. my golf was no starting after a guru did the belt. I noticed that it was all the way to one side of the slot. I moved it a little and it fired up but was very smoky and a turd. I took it down the road to heat it up, adjusted the timing and all was good after that. been running for 50k miles with no issues. I think the timing was way retarded but its been a few years.

I don’t make boost currently so it’s that is not the issue haha, I’ve been chasing boost issues since I bought the car. And I let it warm up before messing with the IP timing but I didn’t have any way to see the timing so I was guessing.

 

['01Doozel]

" I thought a VW scanner that I also got from the previous owner would help me set the IP timing, it did not "

Need some detail with this statement ?

For air in the fuel system , crack the fuel lines , one at a time , to bleed the system , your can do this with engine running .

The ‘scanner’ I have just looks like a normal OBDII scanner but it’s ‘VW/Audi skoda’ I think it says.
And for air on the fuel system I’m going to make sure the injection pump has no air via filling from the low pressure hose on the left side of it and then crack lines. I just don’t know how much I wanna run it with that noise. Granted if it is something hitting something the damage is lol already done. I was getting a code on the scanner, 17656, ‘Start of Injection Timing Regulation, Control Deviation sporadic:’

 

[BobnOH]

......................but I didn’t have any way to see the timing so I was guessing

Danger Will Robinson!
Find the mark on the flywheel, mark it with paint or something. Align the 3 "points", should be close enough to run nice. Any OBDII device that can read MB 000, Field 2 can be used to fine tune.
Group 000 measuring blocks

From left to right

Engine idle speed: range 42 - 45 = 870-950
Start of injection: range 12 - 75 = 2 degrees ATDC - 3 degress BTDC
Throttle position: 0 = 0 %
Injection quantity: 11 - 45 = 2.2 - 9.0 mg/stroke
Manifold Absolute Pressure
Atmospheric pressure
Engine coolant temperature: 80 - 35 = 80 - 110 degrees C
Intake Manifold Temperature: 182 - 50 = 10 - 110 degrees C
Fuel Temperature: 91 - 201 = 20 - 80 degrees C
Air mass: 69 - 111 = 230 - 370 mg/H

These are valid ranges only when the EGR is switched on, engine at idle and at least 80C (176F) coolant temp.

 

['01Doozel]

Danger Will Robinson!
Find the mark on the flywheel, mark it with paint or something. Align the 3 "points", should be close enough to run nice. Any OBDII device that can read MB 000, Field 2 can be used to fine tune.
Group 000 measuring blocks

From left to right

Engine idle speed: range 42 - 45 = 870-950
Start of injection: range 12 - 75 = 2 degrees ATDC - 3 degress BTDC
Throttle position: 0 = 0 %
Injection quantity: 11 - 45 = 2.2 - 9.0 mg/stroke
Manifold Absolute Pressure
Atmospheric pressure
Engine coolant temperature: 80 - 35 = 80 - 110 degrees C
Intake Manifold Temperature: 182 - 50 = 10 - 110 degrees C
Fuel Temperature: 91 - 201 = 20 - 80 degrees C
Air mass: 69 - 111 = 230 - 370 mg/H

These are valid ranges only when the EGR is switched on, engine at idle and at least 80C (176F) coolant temp.

I was attempting to use measurements off my scanner to locate the timing but I’ll be honest I was confused as to what I was looking it. The interface on that thing is not the best. I know I can access measuring blocks and I’ve even run diagnostic tests with it before so it is surprisingly capable. But I guess I need to make sure the flywheel and cam are all lined up before I mess with it anymore. Everything seemed to be lined up when I finished the belt, I followed the timing belt procedure to the T except for verifying the flywheel position which might have gotten me. But from the get go it ran not great. I adjust based off of ‘Start of Injection’ correct?

 

[BobnOH]

But I guess I need to make sure the flywheel and cam are all lined up before I mess with it anymore.

Flywheel (crank), cam and IP. And yes, if you can connect with the OBDII device, use MB00, field 2 which is start of injection.
Here is a link on how to 'get to' the fancy timing chart.

 

[JohnTF]

It's been maybe 15yrs since I was doing this as a business , some stuff is dated and haven't kept up much , but I do have one of the other types of computer communications devices - I use this term for the dated / keeping up ,
The ODBII stuff generally only had a ONEWAY data capabilities / readonly .
The types read / write - twoway like VCDS , mine stope around 2003 ? 1st one of these I've had , work with many others , of both in the past .

I do not remember looking at timing with OBDII , but you also could not change anything with those - oneway .
While others VDDS , VAC-COM , these are systems
Ross-Tech KEY-USB is what I have . Ross-Tech is brand of manufacture that make these https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/index.php
You need these 2-way devices to check & adjust .

As for the bleeding , not like it use be , just crank & crack the injector end of the line [ filling filter was a good idea for keeping the system for going dry and less battery capacity consumed ] , on these injection systems , require from the return line on the pump .

 

['01Doozel]

It's been maybe 15yrs since I was doing this as a business , some stuff is dated and haven't kept up much , but I do have one of the other types of computer communications devices - I use this term for the dated / keeping up ,
The ODBII stuff generally only had a ONEWAY data capabilities / readonly .
The types read / write - twoway like VCDS , mine stope around 2003 ? 1st one of these I've had , work with many others , of both in the past .

I do not remember looking at timing with OBDII , but you also could not change anything with those - oneway .
While others VDDS , VAC-COM , these are systems
Ross-Tech KEY-USB is what I have . Ross-Tech is brand of manufacture that make these https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/index.php
You need these 2-way devices to check & adjust .

As for the bleeding , not like it use be , just crank & crack the injector end of the line [ filling filter was a good idea for keeping the system for going dry and less battery capacity consumed ] , on these injection systems , require from the return line on the pump .

I have looked into getting a setup from ross-tech, but being in college living off savings, I try to not buy expensive things that I can get by without. That being said I might have no other choice but to at the very least purchase the VCDS lite software and a China cable.

 

[UhOh]

Just did the 2nd TB on my car (#4 in my "career") and the timing came out as close to perfect as you can get. IF you get everything lined up then you really don't need to touch the timing at all: for the second time, with my car, that's been the case- I even drove it after the first TB job for quite a while and when I got VCDS I then checked- found it to be perfect so I left it alone!

Public service announcement: Don't do fuel filter changes until after you have started and ran the engine post TB work. Getting air in the fuel system and trying to start the engine following a TB job can make for a lot of confusion.

Is this an automatic or a manual?

A bit concerned with the statement that you don't have boost, that this has been an issue. I'd be wanting to do a compression check in order to have piece of mind...

 

[JohnTF]

Check with the forum outline , there is a help section and one of the things members do is post to see if anyone in your area has a VCDS that can help .
The older units that go to 03 or close , like mine are unlimited VIN numbers , still not cheap but I remember paying $150 , out of production but they do come up here & elsewhere .

 

['01Doozel]

Just did the 2nd TB on my car (#4 in my "career") and the timing came out as close to perfect as you can get. IF you get everything lined up then you really don't need to touch the timing at all: for the second time, with my car, that's been the case- I even drove it after the first TB job for quite a while and when I got VCDS I then checked- found it to be perfect so I left it alone!

Public service announcement: Don't do fuel filter changes until after you have started and ran the engine post TB work. Getting air in the fuel system and trying to start the engine following a TB job can make for a lot of confusion.

Is this an automatic or a manual?

A bit concerned with the statement that you don't have boost, that this has been an issue. I'd be wanting to do a compression check in order to have piece of mind...

I contemplated not loosening the IP bolts and leaving the timing set where it was but from what I read I was under the impression I had to for proper TB tension.

I also agree that replacing the fuel filter after it was running properly would have been advisable, that being said I feel as if just as much air enters the fuel system when you disconnect the fuel filter as does when you change it if you fill the new filter.

It is a manual.

And the boost issue is completely unrelated to the timing belt scenario. I had no boost when I bought the car, over the past 17Kmi I have messed with it here and there, briefly had it working, but I need to replace my N75 valve or mess with my turbo actuator now, was planning to work on that right before the water pump started leaking.

 

['01Doozel]

Check with the forum outline , there is a help section and one of the things members do is post to see if anyone in your area has a VCDS that can help .
The older units that go to 03 or close , like mine are unlimited VIN numbers , still not cheap but I remember paying $150 , out of production but they do come up here & elsewhere .

I found somewhere a map of people with VCDS set ups they would loan and I found a relatively local guy but I reached out last week and have not heard back. I certainly would rather buy an old used ross-tech unit than rely on a cheap Chinese cable.

 

[UhOh]

"I also agree that replacing the fuel filter after it was running properly would have been advisable, that being said I feel as if just as much air enters the fuel system when you disconnect the fuel filter as does when you change it if you fill the new filter."

Hose clamp pliers. Filters will inevitably have some air in the head space. Again, my comment was meant for the general public: it's just good practice to reduce the number of potential issues when dealing with a fairly complex procedure.

 

[Zak99b5]

Yes, you need to loosen the three sprocket bolts on the IP when doing the TB job for tensioning (along with the cam sprocket).

But the IP and cam are both locked at their TDC point, so the small amount of sprocket movement is irrelevant.

If the crank, cam, and IP are all at TDC (verified by the flywheel mark, lock plate, and lock pin respectively) when you complete the timing belt job, the car should run fine.

I did my first ALH TB job this past June (have done many gassers before), and when I went to check in VCDS for injection timing, the point was between the blue and red lines. I did adjust it to between the green and blue lines, but that was just because I wanted to.

You need to pull the plug on the tranny and turn the motor until you see the TDC mark line up with the pointer, then see if you can fit the cam and pump locks. They should slide right in. If not, you'll have to relieve tension on the belt and do that part all over again.

 

['01Doozel]

Yes, you need to loosen the three sprocket bolts on the IP when doing the TB job for tensioning (along with the cam sprocket).

But the IP and cam are both locked at their TDC point, so the small amount of sprocket movement is irrelevant.

If the crank, cam, and IP are all at TDC (verified by the flywheel mark, lock plate, and lock pin respectively) when you complete the timing belt job, the car should run fine.

I did my first ALH TB job this past June (have done many gassers before), and when I went to check in VCDS for injection timing, the point was between the blue and red lines. I did adjust it to between the green and blue lines, but that was just because I wanted to.

You need to pull the plug on the tranny and turn the motor until you see the TDC mark line up with the pointer, then see if you can fit the cam and pump locks. They should slide right in. If not, you'll have to relieve tension on the belt and do that part all over again.

Based off of what I’m hearing, it sounds to me like I either got the IP lock pin next to the hole instead of the hole(it felt extremely snug though, and I’ve heard it is easier to get it in the false hole) or I got the crank off TDC slightly. I’m very busy this week and next week with school, but hopefully next weekend or this Sunday I will have time to pull some stuff apart and see what’s going on. Because it did run but I certainly can’t classify it as fine, I couldn’t go more than 40MPH.

 

[gmenounos]

I have looked into getting a setup from ross-tech, but being in college living off savings, I try to not buy expensive things that I can get by without. That being said I might have no other choice but to at the very least purchase the VCDS lite software and a China cable.

If you buy a cheap USB->KKL cable, you should be able to use kw1281test to set your start-of-injection. Here's an example of reading the basic setting values:

PS C:\Share\KW1281Test> .\kw1281test.exe com4 9600 1 basicsetting 0
KW1281Test: Yesterday's diagnostics...Today.

Version 0.67-beta (https://github.com/gmenounos/kw1281test/releases)
Args: com4 9600 1 basicsetting 0
OSVersion: Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.19043.0
.NET Version: 6.0.0
Culture: en-US
Opening serial port com4
Sending wakeup message
Reading sync byte
Keyword Lsb $01
Keyword Msb $8A
Protocol is KW 1281 (8N1)
ECU: 038906012GN 1,9l R4 EDC G000SG  4308
Software Coding 00002, Workshop Code: 00066
Sending Basic Setting Raw Data Read block
[Press a key to quit]
Raw Data: 000 038 000 000 098 203 204 000 044 255

The raw values will continuously refresh until you hit a key.

See the 2nd link in my signature for more info. You'd have to plot the 2nd and 9th values out on graph paper, but it's do-able and the price is right.

 

['01Doozel]

If you buy a cheap USB->KKL cable, you should be able to use kw1281test to set your start-of-injection. Here's an example of reading the basic setting values:

PS C:\Share\KW1281Test> .\kw1281test.exe com4 9600 1 basicsetting 0
KW1281Test: Yesterday's diagnostics...Today.

Version 0.67-beta (https://github.com/gmenounos/kw1281test/releases)
Args: com4 9600 1 basicsetting 0
OSVersion: Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.19043.0
.NET Version: 6.0.0
Culture: en-US
Opening serial port com4
Sending wakeup message
Reading sync byte
Keyword Lsb $01
Keyword Msb $8A
Protocol is KW 1281 (8N1)
ECU: 038906012GN 1,9l R4 EDC G000SG  4308
Software Coding 00002, Workshop Code: 00066
Sending Basic Setting Raw Data Read block
[Press a key to quit]
Raw Data: 000 038 000 000 098 203 204 000 044 255

The raw values will continuously refresh until you hit a key.

See the 2nd link in my signature for more info. You'd have to plot the 2nd and 9th values out on graph paper, but it's do-able and the price is right.

This is what we like to hear! I might even plot it on excel and be fancy.

 

['01Doozel]

Finally got a chance to look at the Jetta yesterday, rain cut it short so I didn’t accomplish much. Spent probably an hour turning it over by hand using the crank bolt trying to find TDC on the flywheel. Couldn’t find a mark like 03TDICommuter had on his new LUK clutch. I found a possible mark but I need to get a mirror and better flashlight to verify. That being said I turned it probably 8-10 full revolutions and there for sure isn’t any interference going on right now so that leaves me hopeful.