ALH injecion pump to AHU

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
So i bought an 11mm ALH pump because the one on my car is leaking like a sieve... but it didnt come with a sprocket. :(

Now do i:
A) Find a sprocket and get the bracket and sprocket machined to fit the ALH pump with supposedly new-ish seals

B) Take the guts out of one of my many spare AHU pumps and put the ALH guts into it with a reseal kit.

Im leaning toward B, especially if someone has a good walkthrough on how to do it. No machining, no plug swapping, not sprocket to buy, no weirdo hub timing thing...
 

vanbcguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
The weirdo hub timing thing is much much much easier to deal with than the AHU setup. Is the hub still on the 11mm you bought? If so the sprocket itself is pretty easy to find. Setting static timing with that rig is a piece of cake unlike the "adjust, check with vag-com, adjust again, repeat" cycle the AHU uses.

Having the bracket machined isn't the worst thing to have done. I had mine done so I could run a Rover pump on my AHU. Gave the bracket and the pump to the machinist and got a finished perfect product back the next day.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
The hub is still on the pump, otherwise i'd be really boned...
rough guess on what the machining of the bracket cost you? did you also have the hump shaved off so the sprocket fits under the cover or are you running it without the plastic t-belt cover?
i also need my spare flywheel surfaced for the new clutch. i wanna get all my machining done before hand so i can pull the whole engine/trans/k-frame all out the front and do:
clutch, just a VR6 - I hope it holds for at least a few oil changes.
head swap with a franko6 head,
timing belt,
injection pump swap, 11mm ALH
injector swap R520s
turbo swap TD04-15t...
all at once... and hopefully all in about 4 days time.
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
I am about to do the same thing on my AHU for power reasons. I personally would never consider swapping the guts over. Potential to mess it up, or introduce contamination would be one reason. Another reason is the timing adjustment is so much better (in my opinion) on the ALH pump.

As for machining, it is very easy. I am having help from a friend who will likely do it for beer, but I can't imagine it costing more than $100. I bought a spare bracket and inner timing cover so I can do all the machining first and swap the pump in a single day.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I paid $60 to have a bracket machined. I did not mess with the sprocket; I don't run the upper covers.

I haven't swapped the pump yet, but I don't get how adjusting the timing is easier. On the AHU pump, I'm adjusting as the car is running.

With the ALH pump I'll be checking, stop engine, adjust, start and check, etc. seems like it's more trial and error.

-Todd
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
I paid $60 to have a bracket machined. I did not mess with the sprocket; I don't run the upper covers.
I haven't swapped the pump yet, but I don't get how adjusting the timing is easier. On the AHU pump, I'm adjusting as the car is running.
With the ALH pump I'll be checking, stop engine, adjust, start and check, etc. seems like it's more trial and error.
-Todd
I find the adjuster to be more exact since there is no spring effect from the injection lines. Also, I think the timing is more steady at idle because the ALH pulley is heavier. That's just a theory though.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
i feel you run the risk of stressing/cracking those metal injector lines to adjust timing without loosening them first, especially after doing it repeatedly. i much prefer the alh method of timing adjustment. don't forget to have the hole in inner metal timing cover machined out if you don't want to just rough cut it. if you're already having machine work done, it would be a no brainer to machine the pulley down too.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I guess the lines do come into play, but you're supposed to relieve the stress on them, by loosening, then retightening the unions. With this procedure, the sealing flares loose shape, and don't seal.... I'm experiencing this on a #4.

Maybe long term, the ALH sprocket is better...

I figured if I decide to run the inner cover, I'll attack it with a hole saw. I don't run the upper cover or like hiding the timing belt. I'd rather have it exposed, so I can eyeball it when the hood is open.

-Todd
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
well, the Passat is upset with my timeline again and started acting up.

more diesel leakage from the IP and the hose below it is not looking good.... More clutch slipping. Now slips in 3rd-5th if above 1/2 throttle is applied. i can drive it to school/work but I must accelerate very very gently

so now the timeline has moved up and some items removed from the to do list.

All the parts from IDparts should be here monday except the IP sprocket (ebay) will arrive on tuesday. because i wont have the sprocket till later, i will likely leave it unmachined and run it without the covers.


IP bracket is at the machine shop and he said he will try to have it Monday so i can start working on it that afternoon.

Spare flywheel is at a different machine shop (cheaper and faster, but said they couldn't do the IP bracket) and i will have that back this afternoon.

so the new plan is do the 11mm ALH IP swap, timing belt and clutch this coming week...
Hold off on the turbo, nozzles, 3bar MAP and tune until January...
And push the head swap (with upgraded cam and studs) back until at least summer but possibly all the way until the next timing belt change.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
The weirdo hub timing thing is much much much easier to deal with than the AHU setup. Is the hub still on the 11mm you bought? If so the sprocket itself is pretty easy to find. Setting static timing with that rig is a piece of cake unlike the "adjust, check with vag-com, adjust again, repeat" cycle the AHU uses.
I have no idea who does that. I don't even think it's prescribed in the Bentley to do it this way. Loosen all but one pump bolts, fire up vcds, start car, adjust pump based on vcds timing graph, shut down car and tighten everything back down, release tension on inj lines. There's no repeating anything this way.

Am I missing something here?

Steve
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
thats how I adjust my AHU pump, tweak it while its running and then release the tension on the lines. Works alright, but I personally still prefer the ALH setup, it always seems more precise and less likely to be different when things are all snugged up.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
thats how I adjust my AHU pump, tweak it while its running and then release the tension on the lines. Works alright, but I personally still prefer the ALH setup, it always seems more precise and less likely to be different when things are all snugged up.
What you're saying is what I do, you only have to do it once and I've never had a variation in the timing post setup. I would be worried if there was a change.

What was suggested though was to slacken move tighten and then check in vcds repeatedly and I don't think that's the case. A person shouldn't need to do that, I've never done it that way.

Steve
 

twentyeight

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2009
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
1Z & ALH
Just as a tip, machining for the bracket was way, way cheaper when I bolted two brackets together to make the whole thing easy to clamp into a CNC mill (or whatever they use).

Before I did that everyone in Phoenix looked at the oddly shaped bracket and either quoted me high enough to leave them alone or flat out said they didn't have time.

I kind of miss the live-adjustment method but the ALH method is easier to set properly the first time anyway.
 

twentyeight

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2009
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
1Z & ALH
Just one at the time, I still have some 1Z pumps and didn't know if I'd use them in the future. In hindsight, it would have been so cheap to just have both done it would have been worth it. Setup fees are the most expensive part.
 

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado TDI, 2000 Golf, 1996 B4 Variant
Just as a tip, machining for the bracket was way, way cheaper when I bolted two brackets together to make the whole thing easy to clamp into a CNC mill (or whatever they use).

Before I did that everyone in Phoenix looked at the oddly shaped bracket and either quoted me high enough to leave them alone or flat out said they didn't have time.

I kind of miss the live-adjustment method but the ALH method is easier to set properly the first time anyway.
Good idea. That would be the easiest way with a CNC mill. I had to build a fixture and it sucked. A four jaw chuck lathe is the other easy way I have heard of but I have never used one.

The ALH tuning method is annoying if you want to fine tune. The pulley likes to slip when you loosen the bolts. The AHU method while running is super accurate but to loosen all those bolts is a nuisance. The weighted ALH pulley is a benefit. The 11mm pump is nice for power but unnecessary to achieve high levels of power. I also feel and suspect that the 1Z pump would rev to higher RPM and still be making power. 6,000+ RPM to shift and not lose power in the next gear :eek:
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
The 11mm pump is nice for power but unnecessary to achieve high levels of power. I also feel and suspect that the 1Z pump would rev to higher RPM and still be making power. 6,000+ RPM to shift and not lose power in the next gear :eek:

Curious how you come to these assumptions. I'm no way going to fully exploit the 11mm pump, but still curious.

I thought the 1Z/AHU pump stopped making power just under 4K.

-Todd
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
That 4K drop off is more of a tuning thing I think. running out of air to burn the fuel so the smoke maps limit fuel.

There are ppl making plenty of power on a 10mm pump but when you get to r520 and larger nozzles, you might want the bigger plungers like 11 and 12 to maintain good atomization. That's just how I think of it though, I dunno if I'm right but it makes sense to me... Lol.
 

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado TDI, 2000 Golf, 1996 B4 Variant
Curious how you come to these assumptions. I'm no way going to fully exploit the 11mm pump, but still curious.

I thought the 1Z/AHU pump stopped making power just under 4K.

-Todd
Each pump has a different camplate in it. I figure that is what makes the revving difference.

The Europeans blow us away when it comes to their knowledge of Diesel. We talk about what can't be done and they are over there doing it. My Favorite Thread::cool: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=443716 :eek:
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Hey, how sensitive is the adjustment on these pumps? Having a hard time with mine.

-Todd
 

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado TDI, 2000 Golf, 1996 B4 Variant
Hey, how sensitive is the adjustment on these pumps? Having a hard time with mine.

-Todd
Which adjustment are you talking about? Either of the 2 main adjustments just take light hits with a hammer when the bolts are snug.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Hey, how sensitive is the adjustment on these pumps? Having a hard time with mine.

-Todd
I found QA to be very sensitive. It can even be manipulated based on tightening sequence and amount. I had to fiddle with mine a lot to get it where I wanted so I could fine tune in VCDS. I didn't mess with the case pressure adjustment at all, I reinstalled it with new o-rings exactly as it came out.

Europe has a better handle on diesel because that's what the majority of their people drive, it's what they've had available for decades and so they're grown up driving diesel and it would follow that they learn to tune what they drive. Gasoline power is for the US the same as diesel is to Europe. Their fuel costs are much higher and diesel has been necessary to make transport affordable for people.

It also makes a lot of diesel vehicles accessible at all price ranges up and down the spectrum. People will work with and tune what they drive and are familiar with. Also, that 'favorite thread' is in the tuning forum and that's not really what this forum is about.

Steve
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I was actually referring to the sprocket/pulley adjustment, but thanks.

QA and case pressure regulator was something I've been thinking about. I may as well pull the pressure regulator and verify it's still together.

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I was actually referring to the sprocket/pulley adjustment, but thanks.

QA and case pressure regulator was something I've been thinking about. I may as well pull the pressure regulator and verify it's still together.

-Todd
Ah, sorry, not sure about how finicky the sprocket would be but I doubt any more so than what we're used to encountering in the original VE pumps on AHU.

If you haven't opened the pump yet and are just trying to get it running I'd replace the main shaft seal and try again. Unless it was opened after removal it really should run as it sits now. BTW, did the seller declare the leaks when you purchased it?

Steve
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I got as far as pulling it from the car and checking the pressure regulator. It was coming apart, but it was still together.

I supposedly bought a running, leak free pump.... the seller is supposed to call me tomorrow. Curious where this is going to go.

I have another 11mm pump on the shelf, bit it's been sitting since 2013. I opened it about a month ago and the diesel was starting to varnish, but i didn't see any corrosion starting.

Not sure if I want to bolt that one on, or just go back to the 10mm.... I love taking apart perfectly running cars....

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I got as far as pulling it from the car and checking the pressure regulator. It was coming apart, but it was still together.

I supposedly bought a running, leak free pump.... the seller is supposed to call me tomorrow. Curious where this is going to go.

I have another 11mm pump on the shelf, bit it's been sitting since 2013. I opened it about a month ago and the diesel was starting to varnish, but i didn't see any corrosion starting.

Not sure if I want to bolt that one on, or just go back to the 10mm.... I love taking apart perfectly running cars....

-Todd
Pump main shaft seals do not typically fail by sending through the postal system so it would seem that if the pump was running and leak free that perhaps he sent you the wrong one?

I've known (and helped) guys who bought "good working" IP's from various people and ended up with marginal products that really were nothing but a pump the seller replaced with another that didn't leak. There seems to be a problem with honesty when it comes to this stuff.

Not sure the answers from the seller match what you're running into with this. If it was unopened I would say do not disturb the IQ but if that's not true then it might be an IQ issue. It certainly sounds like what I ran into with my IP post-reseal. Even though I marked the case for correct reinstall it was no where near close enough to start the car. It would run briefly then die.

If you're like me you're out of seal kits now. I will need to reorder to do anything more than a driveshaft seal. I remembered I have an 11 mm pump I should reseal too.

I also have some IDI pumps that I should really get round to resealing too. Oh and I've been known to take a running car down that was working fine to do something and ended up creating a huge mess. It happens.

Steve
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
He claims there was nothing wrong with it, and it was running 6 months prior to me buying it.... I'm on the same logic with you, but I'm buying used parts on the internet. Sucks that I had to take my car apart, but I had no other way to test the pump.

We came to a resolution that works for us both, but obviously I'm the one out the labor and time. I mentioned some people don't feel comfortable with reseals, and if I were one of those people, I'd have been out time, labor and money and possibly a car.

If this were my only car, I'd be a bit more miffed.

I think I bought 4 of everything (seal-wise) to keep me stocked. Just not the stuff I was expecting to do, so soon....

-Todd
 
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