ALH from 98 bug into 96 Audi S6

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
*SWAP COMPLETED on PAGE 10*



Well, I've decided that it's been long enough going without Quattro and an adult-sized rear seat, not to mention the limited room in the engine bay. Throughout high school and to this day my parents owned four URS cars as well as a TDI bug (at various times). I now own my own bug, and my dad has two S6s, one a 1996 and one a 1997. The 1996 has been off the road for over a year after my little sister crashed it. My dad has all the replacement parts, but we're both tied up building a stroker motor for his 1997.

Anyway, I'm taking the 96 shell and putting my 400+km ALH in it and then going on a road trip. The bug will be parted afterwards. Below are the details I've covered so far - I know there is a lot involved with swap projects, but I am too attached to diesel and Quattro to be daunted by how much work it is :)

Details covered:

1) transmission - the 01E bolts right up the to ALH, no adapters needed
1a) a 6 speed conversion from advancedautomotion.com with a .56 6th gear will be used. 5 speed 02J ratios/speeds vs 6 speed 01E ratios/speeds

2) the cluster will work, there is no immobilizer as the bug is a 98 and the S6 is a 1996 - this is a relatively simple swap.

3) the exhaust will need to be custom made, as the stock UR exhaust won't fit the TDI, and the TDI exhaust won't fit the C4 chassis. My plan is for a full stainless 2.5" straight exhaust using the AR25 resonator I already own. I think $500 would do it, am I off in this?

4) the donor car needs some (body and other) work, yes, which will be completed before the engine swap.

5) the TDI will be fully serviced while out - TB kit, all seals, gaskets etc..

My timeline is to be done sometime in May. This might be optimistic, but that's just my nature :). I am in my last year of school at YorkU in Toronto, and I finish in mid April.

That's it for now, I'll have to update again when I have more details about the swap. Pix coming soon of the two cars involved!

To Do List: Completed


- remove AAN from S6
- put 6th gear in 01E
- remove ALH from bug, test placement in S6
- do all belts/seals/gaskets etc.
- determine if I'm going to do a power steering pump swap (for brakes) OR perform vacuum assist mod in the S6
- mount engine/tranny in car
- figure out mounting for ALH as best as I can
- complete mounting
- install fuel pressure regulator going with H fuel line system
- figure out fuel lines
- swap go-pedal from the bug
- figure out intake tract
- coolant lines
- swap engine harness/wiring/cluster/ECU/MAF
- exhaust
 
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jjordan11

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Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
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1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Nice, should be a good car when finished with it. Let me know if you run into any snags once you get further along. I know you already have the 98's ECM and harness, but I personally would go with the later ECM for tuning ease in the future. I'm thinking about converting my ahu's ECM/harness to the later alh in my vanagon.
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
That is a good bit of advice. Thankfully it's already been socketed by Rocketchip, so I am good to go in that regard. Every time I drive the bug now I just think, "imagine what that S is going to be like :)"
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
In keeping with the planning, I've been talking with Scott@advancedautomotion a lot (thanks again!) and have been consulting ETKA - it looks like the engine mounting will have to be completely custom because the TDI that the A6 used was the AHU, which has entirely different mounting bosses vs. the ALH. I may be able to use the hydro mounts in the S6 and fab some brackets myself, or it may be better to use some of the mounts from the bug. It's hard to say right now because I don't have both engines out. This is one element that will have to be tackled when I get there.
 

G60ING

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 5, 2001
Location
Alexandria, VA
TDI
No TDIs Currently, I have an R36 Corrado. I've had an ALH Corrado swap, AHU Corrado swap and 2003 TDI Jetta
look into a B6 A4 for mounting brackets that might work. Otherwise it might be a b5.5 tdi's brackets
 

fastscirocco

Member
Joined
May 6, 2008
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
TDI
none yet
Just when I was getting ready to post a link of this conversion on Quattroworld
I noticed the poster's name!

Now get to work and post pics!
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
I'm pretty sure the MORE planning I do, the smoother it will go :)

I think the most challenging thing for this build is going to be mounting the engine. I'm not sure what exists on the "sides" of the block in terms of places for me to either tap or just bolt into. Time to look for pics of bare blocks I guess...

There's also another guy on here who started a swap and then ended up just buying an A6 TDI. I've talked with him a bit and it's good to have his input.
 

Tdi Kick

Veteran Member
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Mar 9, 2009
Location
GTA
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91 Sidekick AHU, '13 A3 CBEA, '05 Passat Variant BHW
Hey there!

Met you and your "LDL BGR" at Brandon's Rocketchip GTG... At least I'm pretty sure thats you...:p

Now THIS is a hot swap. I'd drive that car in a HEARTBEAT...always liked the looks of it. Go For it man!:D:D

My input: THis car did come with the AHU-style engine,as stated, therefore stock engine mounts exsist, perhaps even just the ones already in the car. If its allowable, depending on your plans/goals, perhaps consider selling/trading/dealing the Bug or its parts for an AHU. I really think you'd come out on top in terms of money and time; ALH's tend to go for more than AHU's, at least where I look.:p

I do realize that the ALH has some advantages, yet consider:

1. VNT swap onto an AHU has been accomplished many times successfully
2. An AHU with ALH wiring IS possible as well.

I do beleive that either of these may save you a LOT of headache in terms of fabbing, mounting and NVH.

I hope this is helpful

Cheers!
 

Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
Another option is to use just the AHU block and load it with ALH head, etc. to facilitate bolt-in. Check with Issam (INA Engineering...he will be in the vendors section) up in Ottawa, he often has blocks (less crank) and has a pretty good idea of what is interchangeable.
 

G60ING

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 5, 2001
Location
Alexandria, VA
TDI
No TDIs Currently, I have an R36 Corrado. I've had an ALH Corrado swap, AHU Corrado swap and 2003 TDI Jetta
THE alh head won't bolt onto the AHU block. Go to Germanautoparts.com and compare the head gaskets to see how different they are.
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
I am not too worried about mounting the engine. While I do think it'll be the biggest headache, I'm able to weld onto the block if need be (thanks to modern tech welding cast is not as scary as it used to be). I think that I will end up drilling and tapping some bosses and making a custom bracket for the //S mounts to bolt up to.

The nice thing is that I get to take the engine out, do all of the maintenance it needs, clean it up, and then sell off the rest of the car, recouping my costs. The ONLY things in this swap that should cost money (aside from full TB kit, gaskets, seals) are the custom 2.5" exhaust and the $1200 6 speed conversion. I think the swap SHOULD be able to be done for around $2k - but maybe I am just terribly optimistic/naive :)

A couple of other things on my mind are:

oil pan - not sure how this is going to work exactly (in terms of the transmission), I'll have a better idea when I get in there.

intake paths should be interesting but not too difficult really. I may end up picking up a $100 intercooler piping kit off fleabay and cutting it up to make it work. Once again, we'll see.

ripping the wiring out is going to be fun (as in terrible).

fuel pump - in the S6 it's in the tank. Have to do some research about what to do with it - keep it, make/get a cap, or what.
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
So I've been thinking... if I am going to do this, I may as well do it "right" :p

I'll have a 2.5" exhaust, custom made. So, I thought, why not go v-band for another $100? Well, that'd be one funky adapter to go from the VNT-15 outlet to v-band. So then I thought, well why don't I just get a new turbo? Well... that's a pain, because the VNT-15 is attached to the manfiold.

So I have two options then: separate them and weld a new flange on, or buy a $100-200 manifold from various places online. Either way, I'll be using an internally wastegated turbo with a T3 inlet and v-band hotside outlet. Oh... how beautiful that would be! The only extra thing would be tuning it, which could be done with a custom Malone tune for $450, not bad really.

I really don't want to lose any response, and I figure by going with a billet compressor wheel, ball bearing turbo, that might be possible, and I may even gain a few ponies.

Looking at this turbo so far... Comp Turbo CT2-46.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The BHW's engine support brackets:

8D0-199-305-A
8D0-199-306-AA

The BHW's engine mounts:

8D0-199-379-AR
8D0-199-382-AR

The AWM's oil pan (the late B5's 1.8t engine):

06B-103-601-P

That should take care of getting the engine mounted in the car and bolted to the transmission, as I do not think any of the B or C segment cars with longitudinal-mounted engines ever changed the mounting tabs of the engine mounts in the subframe, whether they used the EA827 family of engines (AHU, ABA, etc) or EA113 family of engines (ALH, AEG, AWM, etc.). In any case, even if they did, it would probably be far easier to mod your existing subframe, OR find a later B5 subframe to mod into the car. The actual subframe mounts may bolt right up to your Audi's body, not sure.

If you can get some subframe measurements I can compare them to a Passat if you like.

Hope that helps.
 
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chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
Well, the project just got real - order to Scott @ Advanced Automotion went in today. 6 speed conversion will be shipped Monday!
 

turbo81roc

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Dec 4, 2009
Location
Bridgeport CT
TDI
96 b4 2006 smart CDI 65mpg:)
Hey I have a freshly rebuilt Garrett t3 with a 2.5" v-band flange on it. I am just looking to get back what I paid for it ($240)? Have pics if you are interested.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Your quattroworld friends would savagely smack you over the head for putting in anything in place of the AAN. ;) But, if you want to do a hop-up project on either the AAN or a TDI swap, you've got my proverbial number. :)
 

chaloux

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Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
Okay, so what does the drive by wire system entail? Hadn't thought of this until now... I wonder if I can just swap the pedal/system over. Hmmmm.
 

clacker

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Mar 29, 2000
Location
Oxford Mills, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2015 Golf Wagon TDI DSG Trendline, 2000 Jetta TDI auto, 2008 Mercedes R320, 2006 smart fortwo cdi
You can either install the throttle pedal from the bug complete in your car OR run the stock pedal and cable and attach the potentiometer at the end of the cable. It is not a hard thing to deal with, but does involve wiring.
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
I'll probably just swap the entire system. That's what's nice about having a whole donor car. The pedal in the bug is good anyway, unlike the pedal in the S, which always have the plastic cover break off.
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
Did a compression test this morning. I was a little concerned because it was having a hard time starting a couple weeks back in the colder weather. This was before I realized I had ONE working glow plug. She started right up in -23 after I put a new set in, which eased my mind on the compression issue a bit. Nevertheless, I figured a test wouldn't hurt.

Results are: 460, 500, 475, 460.

Pretty good for a 410000km car! At the "new engine" specs or better. So I am just going to stick with replacing all the seals/gaskets etc.. and not bother taking the head off, especially if the cams look good (and last time I checked they looked great).

I also received my 6spd conversion from Scott, so next week I'll be sandblasting and tearing apart the 01E tranny to put the extra gear in. That should be fun! Glad I have a Bentley manual at my disposal :)
 

chaloux

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
Just a small update: finally put my big order in with Roseland.

Deluxe timing belt, oil mount seals and gaskets, big vacuum line to brake booster, adapter to use the new style N75, oil filter, and front and rear crank seals.

I should be good to go to do some maintenance when the engine comes out! Then it's just a matter of hooking stuff up :)
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
look into a B6 A4 for mounting brackets that might work. Otherwise it might be a b5.5 tdi's brackets
Neither of those will work. I don't think there is a bolt in solution, something will have to be made.

The pass side engine mount from a euro A6 with a 4 banger may work but the body mounts will have to be welded to the frame as the S6 uses bolt on brackets, and the A6 used weld on brackets.

I supplied a "Kit" to someone in the north east who was doing a swap 'cept with an AHU from a Passat. It wasn't terribly expensive but is not applicable with your setup.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
The 4-cylinder TDI was installed into the C4-generation chassis. What's the issue with using the brackets from this?

Edit:
The pass side engine mount from a euro A6 with a 4 banger may work but the body mounts will have to be welded to the frame as the S6 uses bolt on brackets, and the A6 used weld on brackets.
So this is the problem? The A6 terminology threw me off. The C4 chassis when from 100 to A6 and from S4 to S6 in late `94.
 
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Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
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Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
The 4-cylinder TDI was installed into the C4-generation chassis. What's the issue with using the brackets from this?
.
Yes you can use the bolt on aluminium engine brackets from a euro 1.9 and use the weld on frame brackets from same car. However only if you have an AHU or 1Z. The weld on brackets are coincidentally the same as the 5000/100/200 of earlier years.

The ALH uses a different mounting configuration on the drivers side as the oil filter flange gets in the way of the euro mounting brackets.
 

chaloux

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Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
Yup, gotta use what I've got. Jason's 80Q TDI swap gave me some confidence with custom made brackets using the //S mounts. Someone else posted some custom brackets as well but I can't remember who now... maybe the thread was on Motorgeek. Anyway, things are looking good :)
 

chaloux

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Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Location
Gravenhurst, Ontario
TDI
96 A6 Avant TDI Quattro, 04 Jetta Wagon
Good day today... got my box from Brian@Roseland with tb kit, crank seals, oil filter mount seals, and some other stuff including a new style N75 connector. I've been running without the VNT for the last two weeks because my N75 died. I left it plugged in but it did nothing. So I took 10 minutes and spliced the new connector in and hooked up the N75 I got from KCB (Ken)... oh goodness, the BOOST IS BACK! The transformation is wonderful.

So now I'm just waiting until I'm done school... patience is a virtue I'm told (well, and also waiting for my dad's car to be done so the hoist is vacant, plus I need his spare car to drive).
 
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