ALH 17-22 hybrid hp

opie951

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what is the most hp and torque you can get out of a 1722. and what are the best nozles for that turbo. i have pp764 nozles. what would be the advantage to changing to r520 nozles. i am looking to reach 200 hp. what is the best way to reach that goal.
 

LNXGUY

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200hp at the crank shouldn't be an issue at all.

11mm pump, R520's, liftpump and a few other mods will get you there.
 

opie951

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how much power will my bottom end take befor i need to change the rods. also is there a way to get to 200hp with pp764 nozles.
 
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Ben Dur

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i think 200whp would be about the limit of the pp764's with an 11mm pump but im not really sure to be honest.

I think the general rule is at 200whp the rods, pistons and a few other bits are about at their limit. Although some dont get away with it.
 

LNXGUY

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i think 200whp would be about the limit of the pp764's with an 11mm pump but im not really sure to be honest.

I think the general rule is at 200whp the rods, pistons and a few other bits are about at their limit. Although some dont get away with it.
Yup, anything above 200whp and you'll seriously want to look into beefing up that bottom end.
 

opie951

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so if i reach 200 or just below, by bottom end should last. this is an every day driver. if i go through the effort and $$$ to replace pistons, rods, ect. i will go all out then. i guess what is the mose power i can get out of a 1722 and my pp764 nozles. is 200hp within means.
 

Bush Hopper

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depends on what oil you run, do you drive it hard all the time, or just sometimes. To many factors.

If your going 200 whp and have the opportunity to o upgrade rods, your better of taking the safe way. no one is going to sit here and say 100% your car will hold 200 whp with abusive driving.
 

Farfromovin

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I don't think you'll hit 200whp with PP764's. You should step up to R520's for that level. Even then, it's a stretch. Few cars with 17/22's hit 200whp.
 

mrvermin

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If you put together a 17/22, OMI, 3" full exhaust, 4BAR Map, Race520's Front Mount IC, 11mm pump, Lift Pump, Stage 2 Cam and the right tune, you should hit about 195/whp (ish) maybe the magic 200/whp if lucky... maybe...

Oh, and your stock clutch will be toast, so you need something better....

This is all theory and conjecture mind you, real world results will vary depending on the condition of your engine before you start these mods.

MrVermin
 

mrvermin

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I would probably stop worrying about that magical 200hp mark..

It is "Magical" anyway....:rolleyes: and we all know that Magic is just and illusion :p

Don't bother trying to reach for the 200/whp mark unless you are really planning on stripping and rebuilding and beefing up the bottom end. It is not worth it on a daily driver, really...;)

MrVermin
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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You'll get close with PP764s, 11mm pump, and lift pump, but as others have said you'll do better with Race 520s. And a ported head would help a lot at this fueling level.

I got 184 WHP in my wagon with PP502s, 11mm pump, RC6, no internal mods. I don't think the stock head configuration can take a lot more fuel without a lot of heat and smoke.
 

LNXGUY

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It is "Magical" anyway....:rolleyes: and we all know that Magic is just and illusion :p

Don't bother trying to reach for the 200/whp mark unless you are really planning on stripping and rebuilding and beefing up the bottom end. It is not worth it on a daily driver, really...;)

MrVermin

Yup, stick with a reliable 175-180whp and be done with it..
 

JFettig

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We should note that torque is the enemy of the bottom end, not necessarily power.

I see no reason to go with PP764 nozzles when R520's are available. They will make more power and cleaner power. I wish I would have gone with them instead of the nozzles I did, and I might upgrade at some point.
 

JFettig

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It goes without saying that 200whp usually brings a lot of torque along with it :)
Not necessarily. You could easily hit 200hp and not exceed 300ft-lbs. heck, you could hit 200hp and not exceed 200ft-lbs if you wanted to.

If I decide to upgrade turbos on my passat, I'm going to limit myself to 300ft-lbs and let power do what it wants.
 

Ben Dur

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Not necessarily. You could easily hit 200hp and not exceed 300ft-lbs. heck, you could hit 200hp and not exceed 200ft-lbs if you wanted to.

If I decide to upgrade turbos on my passat, I'm going to limit myself to 300ft-lbs and let power do what it wants.
that one would be tough with a vnt1722, around 5000rpm the exhaust side does start becoming restrictive. Only a handfull of 1722 dyno graphs are even still making usefull power around the 5250 crossover.

Could you? yeah im sure. if thats what your set out to do.

Also i think its worth noting that at some point torque is your enemy, but at what point is engine speed your enemy? We are talking about a stock bottom end and presumably a (at least fairly) stock head. 5000rpm maybe 5500rpm but even then your pushing it imho
 

JFettig

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Yeah, I understand, I'm just trying to make a point that torque numbers should be considered, not HP numbers.

I am also saying that the tune can limit torque and still give you high HP output. Look at one of the 200hp dyno curves, sure they hit 320-350ft-lbs, but chop it at 300ft-lbs and it can still make 200hp, potentially as safely as making 180hp.
 

Ben Dur

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Why do you say torque is the emeny?
there have been at least a handful of people bend rods, throw rods, score cranks, crack pistons.

most of these failures are diagnosed as being the product of too much torque.

The stock internals can only handle so much stress which, for lack of a more complicated explanation, stress is a direct product of torque (among other things)
 

Ben Dur

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Yeah, I understand, I'm just trying to make a point that torque numbers should be considered, not HP numbers.

I am also saying that the tune can limit torque and still give you high HP output. Look at one of the 200hp dyno curves, sure they hit 320-350ft-lbs, but chop it at 300ft-lbs and it can still make 200hp, potentially as safely as making 180hp.
It is a great point. Ive seen a lot of variance in torque output of cars producing "200hp."

im keen to agree, limiting torque would be key to longevity. But i must still point out (for the sake of our new/curious members) that you can only rev so high with the stock internals. There can be a safe balance, i agree.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Not huge power at the crossover, but not terrible. SMIC so heat soak is an issue on the dyno.
 

my1998tdi

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there have been at least a handful of people bend rods, throw rods, score cranks, crack pistons.

most of these failures are diagnosed as being the product of too much torque.

The stock internals can only handle so much stress which, for lack of a more complicated explanation, stress is a direct product of torque (among other things)
I understand that but isn't that the reason for the upgraded parts? Like rods and pistons? I know there are still limits.
 

JFettig

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there have been at least a handful of people bend rods, throw rods, score cranks, crack pistons.
I have not seen anywhere that this has been conclusively diagnosed as a torque problem, or any conclusive diagnosis. While it is likely what caused(or played a large part in) failure, there is no real way to know for sure with anything I have come across.

-edited above^
 
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JFettig

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Not huge power at the crossover, but not terrible. SMIC so heat soak is an issue on the dyno.
That is a nice looking curve, however is the x-axis correct? Peak torque at 2700rpm? The rest of it looks ok, but that thing has to be a little laggy down low. My dyno curve doesn't look much better - but that was because we cut fueling to limit off-boost smoke with a MAF delete, which has now been restored and smokeyness reduced.
 

Ben Dur

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Hey ill take that. But when i look at stock parts that have been damaged in a upper 190hp or 200+hp car i tend to conclude that it is either heat, PCP, or RPM.

Ive seen well over 5k rpm a number of times in my car, while i dont to it regularly it happens, and i dont see many tuners going out past 5500 aside from full race tunes. I dont think the reputable tuners have a bad rep for letting customers spin things unreasonably, although im sure there have been cases. This only really leaves a few culprits in many cases.
 

my1998tdi

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Doesn't that hurt the driveablity with the torque so low below 2700? From what I heard about the 17/22 is the torque comes on about the same time as a 15. Is it all to try and protect the critical components?
 

opie951

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well then what is the best i can do with what i have.
car has
1722
pp764
3 bar map sensor
eurojet fmic
3" omi
pd150 intake manifold
kerma tune
arp studs, (cheap insurance)
vr6 clutch and g60 flywheel

later this summer
peloquin diff
sbc endurance
colt stage 2 cam
 
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