flee
Veteran Member
This seems logical. Has anyone made an insulating gasket for the I/M?
Air to water cooler.... why don't i see a lot?
- Thread starter sardo_67
- Start date
So what he is saying is that the intake mifold that is bolted to the head heats up too much and in turn heats up the IC that is part of the I take now?
Were you able to cool the water down with a pump and heat exchanger?
Were you able to cool the water down with a pump and heat exchanger?
nkgagne
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Location
- Kitchener, Ontario Canada
- TDI
- 2015 Sportwagen 6M, 2006 Golf GLS TDI (sold)
Along these lines, I think one major improvement on an AWA setup would be running G12 mix instead of just water, if you expect to see sub-zero temps. Frozen intake air probably isn't the best for warm-up, but frozen AWA fluid could lead to burst intercooler cores (hydrolock risk!), burst tubing, destroyed circ. pump, etc.
Houpty GT
Veteran Member
I would think that radiant heat from the exhaust manifold/turbo would be heating your system more than the cylinder head. Shield you manifold and try a turbo wrap. More flow water flow through your chargecooler would also help.
You could also try a cooler thermostat for the engine.
You could also try a cooler thermostat for the engine.
Houpty GT
Veteran Member
So I had a crazy thought the other day. For drag racing with an ice reservoir, a second air to water intercooler could be placed before the turbocharger. This would provide additional cooling to the less dense, higher velocity air and would also remove moisture from the charge. Just sharing a thought that others may be able to build off of.
Pat Dolan
Veteran Member
How is it going to remove moisture? Yes, that's a trick question. BTW: do you own an impeller store?
Houpty GT
Veteran Member
Please, no impeller jokes. Why are you trying to knock a new idea with no real contribution.
Moisture is going to condense on the 32 degF surface, and then it simply needs to be separated from the airflow. A quick change intercooler could be used and swapped for each run. How did VW resolve the issue with engines that were hydrolocking from frosting in the intercoolers up north? I am not going to look into how beneficial the idea is since I am not building a drag car and only sharing a thought for other people to ponder.
Moisture is going to condense on the 32 degF surface, and then it simply needs to be separated from the airflow. A quick change intercooler could be used and swapped for each run. How did VW resolve the issue with engines that were hydrolocking from frosting in the intercoolers up north? I am not going to look into how beneficial the idea is since I am not building a drag car and only sharing a thought for other people to ponder.
TDIJetta99
Top Post Dawg
On a drag car, you would use an ice box to cool the intercooler coolant instead of a radiator.. If you want it REALLY cold, you dump dry ice into it, but you'll need coolant that won't freeze LOL..
Houpty GT
Veteran Member
Yeah, I was talking about using an ice reservoir. It was just an idea on taking an opportunity to cool the air to near freezing pre and post compressor.
Looking into cooling baths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooling_baths) is an option to get below freezing but I would think it would be higher maintenance with the chemicals.
Pat Dolan
Veteran Member
The issue is that there is a pretty healthy airflow going through the duct. When the moisture condenses, it will not likely just sit there waiting for you to change out the IC, it will end up impinging on the impeller - causing pretty serious erosion. It COULD be separated from the airflow with an inertial separator, but that requires you to turn the airflow abruptly, losing a lot of energy.
TDIJetta99
Top Post Dawg
Yep.. Ice box.. Spend a day or two at a dragstrip during the summer and you'll see a bunch..
dieseleux
Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
ocshaman
Veteran Member
Know it's been a while since you posted this, but the Grand Prix guys have m90 superchargers, and have started making ICs out of phenolic to keep the heat transfer down, and the weight as well.
JFettig
Vendor
phenolics are used as insulators, not intercoolers.
ocshaman
Veteran Member
JFettig
Vendor
so, intercooler inside a phenolic spacer, neat 
dieseleux
Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
Ouf... massive insulator!
Dieseleux
Dieseleux
Vekke
Veteran Member
I started to build my first air to water intercooler which is integrated to intakemanifold. I using the VW 1.2 TSI unit which code is OE-03F145749B. Its perfect size for 1.2 or 1.4TDI engines. This first one only fits to Lupo 1.2 TDI, but the 1.4TDI is tighter in at least on Audi A2 where I will build one also. On the A2 I have 130 hp at the moment and IAT goes to 65-70 celsius on long accelerations with stock intercooler.
Benefits of the water to air cooler is less pressure drop at the intake air cooling --> turbo is stressed less and can make more boost and better engine efficiency
Lower intake air temperatures --> more power
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...Automobile-Engine.pdf?origin=publication_list
Benefits of the water to air cooler is less pressure drop at the intake air cooling --> turbo is stressed less and can make more boost and better engine efficiency
Lower intake air temperatures --> more power
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...Automobile-Engine.pdf?origin=publication_list
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Macradiators.com
Veteran Member
Just put a good fmic, they work better
Votblindub
Veteran Member
I just finished going through this super old thread. Wow, guys! I was not expecting this much salt, it's like the dead sea over here.
BUT! It's very educational and I can keep up without having to look up most of the words or needing a triple PHD.
How is everyone's progress(those who were building)? Have you ran it at the track and in a daily situation? Any winter issues?
Or is this just in the "abandoned" shed?
BUT! It's very educational and I can keep up without having to look up most of the words or needing a triple PHD.
How is everyone's progress(those who were building)? Have you ran it at the track and in a daily situation? Any winter issues?
Or is this just in the "abandoned" shed?
UFO
Veteran Member
I think, bottom line, a/w/a can be done, but it's more difficult to implement for the same results as an air/air. The only advantages are intake air flow is simplified, and heat exchange to a lower temperature than ambient if one uses ice. But that again depends on faithful implementation.
Whatever works for your vehicle and purpose.
Whatever works for your vehicle and purpose.
you run a separate loop for the IC with a small radiator and pump. Mine are off the inverter cooling loop from a 1st gen prius that I found in the junkyard.
heavy trucks used to run their aftercoolers with engine coolant, but they're also moving 40k lbs around with a 200hp engine.
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
BMW runs A/W intercoolers on gas engines -- M3 and M4 series--possibly others too. They are reasonably compact and serviceable for the heat exchange capacity they bring, from what I can tell.
So, OEM's do it successfully, but it's shied away from by DIY'ers and engine builders/tuners/racers for the added complexity. I guess OEM-grade heat exchangers have gotten a lot more reliable in the last fifteen years or so; hell, my 335d has an A/A intercooler, but it still has FIVE heat exchangers in the engine bay.
For niche builds like rear-engined water cooled (vanagons, etc), you almost have to use A/W (well not really, but it avoids many other headaches from what I've read).
So, OEM's do it successfully, but it's shied away from by DIY'ers and engine builders/tuners/racers for the added complexity. I guess OEM-grade heat exchangers have gotten a lot more reliable in the last fifteen years or so; hell, my 335d has an A/A intercooler, but it still has FIVE heat exchangers in the engine bay.
For niche builds like rear-engined water cooled (vanagons, etc), you almost have to use A/W (well not really, but it avoids many other headaches from what I've read).
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what do they cool that water with? an add onto the radiator like they do a trans cooler or separate thing?
would a constant 190* intake air temp be good if it were cooled with engine coolant?
Ol'Rattler
Top Post Dawg
Pretty sure 190F IAT would be more like an air to water to air heater, way to hot.
Check out page 26. Charge Air Cooling Coolant Circuit (Low-Temperature Circuit)
http://pics3.tdiclub.com/data/517/820433_EA288.pdf
Check out page 26. Charge Air Cooling Coolant Circuit (Low-Temperature Circuit)
http://pics3.tdiclub.com/data/517/820433_EA288.pdf
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medium and heavy duty trucks used to do it that way long ago, but they're pushing 40k lbs with a 200hp engine
meaning they're always in boost and IATs would be in the 300s without any sort of aftercooling
anything modern uses a separate loop
ya that's what i was wondering but seeing as the IC radiator is attached to the engine radiator it doesn't heat up too much?