Adblue delete vs full eco kit by Rawtec

[Flybuzz]

Hi everyone,

I was looking into rawtech kits and want your help understanding what each variation of the kit does.
Malone has an option for just Adblue delete when ordering Stage 2 and a separate option of Adblue+DPF+EGR delete with the same Stage 2 tune.
When I bought my tune, I built my tune for each option as well as just Stage 2.
Right now I'm on just Stage 2 with no deletes.
So, I'm wondering, what will I be missing by doing ""Adblue delete only" and how much less work (and how much fewer parts) will I have to do?

Correct me if I'm wrong, it looks to me that the work for Adblue delete starts and ends under the hood, the original exhaust equipment remains the same and there is negligible gain in power for this mod.
If I go further, there is more gain in power output, due to less restrictive exhaust and more oxygen/higher temp in the cylinders, ability to inject more fuel to utilize the above two.

For the full eco kit, what would be the utility of the resonator and high-flow cat options in the exhaust assembly? I don't want to have a loud or raspy sound from my exhaust. Is it where I want to go with the most expensive set if options listed at rawtek?

And the very last question. What happens with the hypothetical car that has a full eco kit on it when it pulls in to an emissions check station?

Thank you

 

[adjat84th]

If you're in NOVA, you won't pass inspection. You'd need to find a tuner that can force readiness on emissions monitors, which is very illegal and why Malone doesn't offer that option. That's not including any visual check which some state inspectors do and some don't (take a guess how I know).
For the adblue-only delete, ask Malone what's entailed? They offer it, so should know what it means.

I have a resonator on my setup and it's not loud or raspy or droney on the highway, that's with no muffler too. A cat would just keep smell down some.

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

I can answer the adblue delete, it just as the name says. It's a software delete that turns off the DEF system.

You don't need to unplug anything.

 

[Flybuzz]

I can answer the adblue delete, it just as the name says. It's a software delete that turns off the DEF system.

You don't need to unplug anything.

Thank you. How does that affect performance?

 

[Flybuzz]

...

Thank you, you got all my concerns covered.
I spoke to one car mechanic, he was recommended here on the board and he sounded optimistic about everything, pointing at his several tdi's as an example. But I know that I will be on my own when stuff happens.
Is it doable to put stuff back together if I decide to use the car for offroad and then in the future change my mind and want to bring it back to compliance?

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

Thank you. How does that affect performance?

DEF is just an exhaust treatment system, does nothing for the engine except lower NOx.

 

[adjat84th]

@Flybuzz IMO putting the stock equipment back on for inspection would be a nightmare. The DEF-off tune sounds interesting especially if it's able to stay in place, could be a nice reliability upgrade. In the Mk7 forum, there appear to be some people waiting for entire new DEF tanks to repair an issue, not to mention all of the DEF injector line failures.

 

[Flybuzz]

@Flybuzz IMO putting the stock equipment back on for inspection would be a nightmare. The DEF-off tune sounds interesting especially if it's able to stay in place, could be a nice reliability upgrade. In the Mk7 forum, there appear to be some people waiting for entire new DEF tanks to repair an issue, not to mention all of the DEF injector line failures.

I thought the DPF-off would be a nice backup option in case of DEF system malfunction so I can actually make it to a carshop. As of a "nightmare". Will that be a nightmare of a size of exhaust system upgrade, just followed the directions backwards and untuning to bare Stage 2 or original? Or that emissions equipment goes bad quickly when not used?
Let's say a person wants to be compliant and uses the car for offroad for a year. Then installs the equipment back and uses it on the street as long as the car can pass the emissions. From rawtek PDF I can see that the work is 5-6 hrs... ok, for the first time it may take me full weekend. It's ok. The second time it should be same or shorter. Or pay $1500 and have the mechanic install it back if this is same 5-6 hrs. Right?

 

[adjat84th]

I mean, it's obviously able to be done if you have the time and patience. If going that route, there are a couple options that get rid of the DPF/EGR only, and hook up right to the stock pipe where the main catalytic converter is. That would be easier IMO, plus those options are a fraction of the cost...like several hundred dollars. TRW in Portugal and Darkside offer those, and have spots on them to reconnect all the sensors back so they're not just hanging around or taken off (even though they'd be tuned out).

 

[Flybuzz]

That is awesome, I did not know that there are kits that allow you to keep the original exhaust pipe assembly with just a downpipe swap. Sounds like what I wanted to do. Thanks for pointing me out in that direction.
Too bad I can't use Rawtek for that, in case I wanted to replace the pipe later entirely.
Oh, one more question. I saw most manufacturers offer 2.5" pipes, while (I believe) Buzzken has an option of 3" pipe. (I saw tge option to choose between 2.5 and 3 on some vendor's site, but can't find which one now). Would the benefit of the wider diameter pipe be worth it?

 

[adjat84th]

2.5" is more than enough for what these motors can produce. You won't see any difference with 3" other than possibly different sound, though likely minimal with a cat and muffler still in place.

 

[Flybuzz]

@adjat84th it's been awhile. Thanks for your answer. May I ask you to extend your favor by answering my additional questions below?
What would be the advantage of replacing the exhaust past the downpipe? In other words, will the vehicle be gaining any significant performance with full exhaust replacement?
Would the original exhaust components kept (past downpipe) help with reducing noise and smell?
Thanks in advance.

 

[adjat84th]

Something like this would keep the cat and muffler, there would be a little turbo whistle likely but still be stock-like quiet.
I haven't personally heard of anyone in the states running this specific piece, but I got a great quality "cat-back" from them for a great price even with shipping from Portugal.
State inspectors are for sure looking for cats these days, whether or not they would notice the missing DPF is obviously a gamble.
I'm rocking no state inspection stickers on both my TDIs now, apparently you won't get pulled over for that specifically anymore..weird.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

TRW pipes have those extra 2 mounting legs near the top. Is that a euro thing?

 

[adjat84th]

TRW pipes have those extra 2 mounting legs near the top. Is that a euro thing?

That is to attach the DPF pressure differential sensor hoses, if one was so inclined to keep them.

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

I have my downpipe all the way to the stock muffler pipe. I went with Profidiesel to delete the DPF and the SCR/DEF system.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

That is to attach the DPF pressure differential sensor hoses, if one was so inclined to keep them.

wow, i never would've thought of that. They do seem to have 1 or 2 more bungs than the profi pipe, which should be expected.

 

[Flybuzz]

Something like this would keep the cat and muffler, there would be a little turbo whistle likely but still be stock-like quiet.

Sorry for the stupid question, this TRW downpipe must be welded on, correct? The similar piece from the rawtek has bolt holes.

And back to my original question, what am I missing by keeping the original components past this one? That would be cat and resonator. How big of the improvement a high flow cat could be?

My goal is to get max fuel economy and reliability.

 

[adjat84th]

The TRW is designed to connect to the turbo and cat piping with the OE v-band clamps, the easiest solution IMO. That's what the flared ends are for.
A high flow cat wouldn't hurt things obviously, I can't say what improvement there would be but surely there is something to gain there.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

what am I missing by keeping the original components past this one? That would be cat and resonator.

you risk clogging up your cat with soot, or worse, depending on your neighborhood, having a cat thief cut it off & damage your downpipe

 

[Flybuzz]

If catalytic gets sooted, then I will have to replace it. Still better than to throw away a working one. The only drawback is that I will have to stick to the same manufacturer and be limited by their options availableat that time. But worse comes to worst, I can throw away that $300 TWR downpipe and replace the whole rig?!
What about keeping adblue? Do people keep it to reduce nitrogen oxide in the deleted exhaust? If there were a possibility to keep it, I think someone would implemented it some way?

 

[turbobrick240]

The SCR cat won't work with the DPF and DOC deleted. The welds on that TRW pipe are fairly ugly. I'd look elsewhere personally.

 

[adjat84th]

The SCR cat won't work with the DPF and DOC deleted. The welds on that TRW pipe are fairly ugly. I'd look elsewhere personally.

Ugly welds don't mean bad, but that pic certainly isn't the best. My exhaust I received from them looks far better. I wouldn't recommend them otherwise, but I have only the one good experience.

 

[turbobrick240]

Ugly welds don't mean bad, but that pic certainly isn't the best. My exhaust I received from them looks far better. I wouldn't recommend them otherwise, but I have only the one good experience.

True. At that price point I wouldn't expect jewelry. Maybe they just picked a poor example for the photo. The welds on the profidiesel pipe look better, but the flange of the TRW looks smoother and it's a few bucks cheaper.

 

[Flybuzz]

Thanks guys.
I went back and forth with trw on whatsapp and got confused by their answers even more about catalytic/soot issue. They say that the downpipe replaces the catalytic as well. I don't think it's correct. Or is it?
Should I be worried about having to redo the exhaust in a short period of time because of my original catalytic failed from soot? And in case if I decide to reinstall the egr and dpf for whatever reasons, and this catalytic is dead - then it's another quest to address while being time pressured for let's say passing the inspection, plus $$$...
Am I overthinking it?
I have never done an exhaust work, so my questions probably silly, please just bear with me...

 

[adjat84th]

It replaces the NOx cat/DPF, but the main cat (under the shifter) would stay in place. I don't know if the main cat would hold up long term without the DPF in place, but plenty of pre-DPF cars have cats. As long as an accompanying tune does not alter the stock pre-DPF smoke limiters, it will not be very noticeable in smoke output.

 

[Flybuzz]

@adjat84th My thought about pre-dpf cars exactly. Decades of cars in production with catalytics before DPF was invented. Somehow their cats held up somehow or maybe I'm just unaware.
Thanks about the tune comment. I will double check with Malone.
Reading about cats on diesel cars from 1970-2000 tells me that the technology was immature and often offered to gas cars only. I came across some presumptions of carbon buildup in cats going away under extended highway driving. Also, came across some products and even services for cleaning the catalytic convertors.
So, I guess, I'm going to try to the TRW downpipe then.
Just a thought. DPF regen initiates in those components that are being removed during delete? Would it make sense to command a regen cycle on a deleted exhaust to increase the temperature downstream and "bake" the cat time to time?

 

[adjat84th]

I doubt that is necessary, but your tuner should be able to confirm.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Early TDIs had what VW called a catalytic converter, but it's really just a particulate trap. They usually don't plug up, the particulate just gets burned off (or dumped out the tail pipe) when you drive the car hard or fast. I did have one plugged up on a '97 Jetta I bought years ago, but the elderly original owner never got it above 1500 RPM, I don't think.

I wonder about how good an idea it is to delete the Adblue but leave the emissions system intact. Adblue, in my understanding, injects into the exhaust to assist cleaning it up. It replaces, to some extent, the post combustion injection that earlier DPF equipped cars use. If you leave the DPF in place but take away the adblue, I would think that regens will become less effective and you'd experience earlier DPF failure.

Also, I don't think a tuned TDI's output is that much different with or without the delete. The turbos on common rail VWs are close to maxed out when stock, so there's not the same kind of headroom for power increase as there was in earlier TDIs. My tuned '15 makes about 165/300 with all emissions intact, and I've not seen deleted cars with stock hardware go much higher than that.

I have three cars in my household that have DPFs: Two VWs and a BMW. I debate whether or not I'd delete any of them. The BMW and the JSW are coming up on 15 years old, which means safety inspection only in MA. But honestly they run well and I don't mind them being legal.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

A sensible DEF "delete" would keep the system intact, but NOT leave you stranded if it runs empty or clogs.