AC High side & Low Side Pressures

JimInPB

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Location
Florida
TDI
1999.5 ALH Jetta
..., I guarantee you, on 85f day, it will have "about" 45 PSI on the suction side and "something" over 200 PSI and will be cooling just fine..
45 psi shows to be about +10C on the face of my low pressure gauge, which I think is equal to about 50F. Freezing is around 27PSI. 200psi shows as 55C on the face of my high pressure gauge, which translates to about 131F.
 
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AndyBees

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Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
That's what I expected too. I just double checked. Mine states 750g & in a smaller font +50. There is no minus. Other cars may be different.
Yeah, I checked my 03 Jetta .... sticker says +50 with no minus.
 

KLXD

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Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
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'98, '2 Jettas
I've never heard a complete, cogent explanation of why you can't charge by pressures.

I suspect the charge by weight method originated on the assembly line so they could charge the system without running the engine plus eliminate the sight glass.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
I've never heard a complete, cogent explanation of why you can't charge by pressures.
Becuase anyone that argues that it cant be done by pressure is ignorant to refrigerant systems.
You would be asking to prove a negative here.
 

turbocharged798

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May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Really? So the fact you can have anywhere from 5 oz to 30 oz of r134a in the system and it will show the same pressure must just be I'm ignorant.

Even the pro HVAC guys don't just charge by pressures. You have a TXV and an RCV that you are battling with, both are compensating for charge amounts.

Just weigh the charge in. Two 12 oz cans puts you pretty close to where you need to be.
 

Genesis

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Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
I've never heard a complete, cogent explanation of why you can't charge by pressures.

I suspect the charge by weight method originated on the assembly line so they could charge the system without running the engine plus eliminate the sight glass.
I'll answer it.

The RCV, which is non-reportable (you don't know how much its bypassing) means the tables of subcool and pressure do not relate as you'd expect to charge level. This is why these systems work pretty well even with only half a charge in them; the RCV is basically closed at that lower boundary and bypasses nothing -- and the subcool and pressures will look pretty much normal. However, the charge level is wrong. If you had the bypass percentage from the RCV on a dynamic basis you could calculate it out but there's no way to determine it. The pressure/subcool, if you look at it while charging (I have), looks kinda wonky on these systems making accurate interpretation impossible and that's why.
 

AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I removed the RCV in the Compressor on the ALH in my Vanagon due to the style of expansion valve in the evaporator. I stumbled onto an article about R134a not working properly in retrofitted older model vehicle due to the RCV. So, when I was putting the ALH in my Vanagon I saw right off that charging the system was going to be a challenge. How much R134a should I put in was the big question. The viewing glass was totally useless!

So, I used the basic (and I mean basic) process of pulling a vacuum for like two hours. Keep in mind, there are two very long hoses (to the front and back). After the long vacuum, I slowly allowed the system to pull in the Refrigerant with the engine RPM up around 1500 and a box fan blowing on the front of the Van. When the system began expelling about 40f cool air, I continued to add about another 6 ounces of Refrigerant. I continued to observe the manifold gauges allowing the Compressor to cycle numerous times. Then, out on the road, to avoid cycling of the Compressor, I just crank down the temp sitting and let it do its thing.
 

JimInPB

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Location
Florida
TDI
1999.5 ALH Jetta
I've never heard a complete, cogent explanation of why you can't charge by pressures. ...
You can. I've done it many times with good results. When I converted an old Pathfinder from R-12 to 134a, I had no choice but to charge it by pressure & that worked out great. I was living in AZ when I did that project. Out there, AC can be considered life support equipment, so you want it to work as well as it can. On a day when it was 120F outside, I opened the windows, set the source air to outside, set the fan to high, then charged the system up to about 200psi on the high side, then continued to charge very slowly until I saw the low side rise by a couple of degrees. Then I stopped. that worked well for years, until my wife got into a front end crash & trashed the system. If the high side safety valve had kicked out before the low side pressure rose, I would have stopped there & backed off a bit.

Once you know what the normal pressures are (at a given ambient temperature) for a particular system, then in the future you can charge to the same pressures & call it good. I find that much faster, easier and more reliable than trying to weigh a small can within half an oz, while it's connected to an AC hose. Unfortunately, if the ambient temperature is different, the pressures will be different.

Also, I sometimes go a little off the books with the charge weight, if the system will be used in unusual environments. As an example, in AZ, where 110F is normal in June & I've seen 126F on a hot day, I find that if I run my charge slightly less than recommended, I get better cooling. That's because on really hot days, the over pressure safety valve kicks in on the hot side & doesn't let the system run again until the pressure drains down a bit. running a little less juice in the system lets the system cool constantly without shutting down. The down side to this, is that the system works less efficiently when it's 80F outside.
 
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JimInPB

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Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Location
Florida
TDI
1999.5 ALH Jetta
...I'll drive it around for a few days & see how it is.
So far, so good. Starting with the cabin around 105F on a 90 degree day, I loose about 20 degrees per minute at the dash for the first 3 minutes of driving with the fan set to 2. I then set it up to 3 & see the temp stabilize at 35F after about 5 minutes. A fan setting of 4 (max) makes no difference in indicated temperature at that point. I'm back to being a member of the foggy glasses club & I'm pretty happy about that.

Thanks to everybody for all the fast responses.

Jim
 
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Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Really? So the fact you can have anywhere from 5 oz to 30 oz of r134a in the system and it will show the same pressure must just be I'm ignorant.

Even the pro HVAC guys don't just charge by pressures. You have a TXV and an RCV that you are battling with, both are compensating for charge amounts.

Just weigh the charge in. Two 12 oz cans puts you pretty close to where you need to be.
Lol no.
Every ounce of refrigerant will show more pressure. That's how it works.
Unless the system is vaced down... forget a weight in.
Sheesh so much bad advice everywhere for ac systems.
2 12oz cans doses not even come close to close.
It's almost 3 you need. You can always push it back into the can if yiu go over the pressure vs temp you need.
 

JimInPB

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Location
Florida
TDI
1999.5 ALH Jetta
I removed the RCV in the Compressor on the ALH in my Vanagon due to the style of expansion valve in the evaporator. I stumbled onto an article about R134a not working properly in retrofitted older model vehicle due to the RCV. So, when I was putting the ALH in my Vanagon I saw right off that charging the system was going to be a challenge. How much R134a should I put in was the big question. The viewing glass was totally useless!

So, I used the basic (and I mean basic) process of pulling a vacuum for like two hours. Keep in mind, there are two very long hoses (to the front and back). After the long vacuum, I slowly allowed the system to pull in the Refrigerant with the engine RPM up around 1500 and a box fan blowing on the front of the Van. When the system began expelling about 40f cool air, I continued to add about another 6 ounces of Refrigerant. I continued to observe the manifold gauges allowing the Compressor to cycle numerous times. Then, out on the road, to avoid cycling of the Compressor, I just crank down the temp sitting and let it do its thing.
If you convert from R-12 to 134a, one thing to keep in mind is the oil in the system. Two different types are used & I've read that they do not play well with each other if they mix. I went to great lengths to clean out the old oil when I did my retrofit. I had good results. I'd be interested to hear if you had any issues if you did not clean out the old stuff. I always wondered if I had wasted my time with the big clean out. I pulled both the evap & the condenser, as well as all hoses, so that I could clean them well. It was a lot of work.
 

Genesis

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Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
The R134a system in my Suburban (or Mazda for that matter) can be reasonably assessed with gauges and subcool because both are clutched, fixed-displacement compressors. No RCV. You can get plenty close enough.

On the VWs the compressor is variable-displacement; that's the problem with getting a correct assessment based on pressures, not the refrigerant. And yes, the oils between R12 and R134a are NOT compatible.
 

JimInPB

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Location
Florida
TDI
1999.5 ALH Jetta
As a general rule, the American cars tend to run lower high side pressures than most imports. This is because most of the American stuff runs larger condensers on the high side so they have more capacity to remove heat without going to higher pressures to get a bigger delta T.

On my Jetta, when I first got it, the AC performance was poor. I got a huge improvement when I fixed the blend door. Things got even better when I put some pipe insulation around the metal piping in the system. I ran happily after that until the original compressor died of old age. At that point, I put in a full new aftermarket kit & have had very cold air until my issues a few days ago, which now seem to have been overcome.

The biggest lesson I learned on this car is how much insulation matters.
 

JimInPB

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Location
Florida
TDI
1999.5 ALH Jetta
I'll answer it.

The RCV, which is non-reportable (you don't know how much its bypassing) means the tables of subcool and pressure do not relate as you'd expect to charge level. This is why these systems work pretty well even with only half a charge in them; the RCV is basically closed at that lower boundary and bypasses nothing -- and the subcool and pressures will look pretty much normal. However, the charge level is wrong. If you had the bypass percentage from the RCV on a dynamic basis you could calculate it out but there's no way to determine it. The pressure/subcool, if you look at it while charging (I have), looks kinda wonky on these systems making accurate interpretation impossible and that's why.
Thanks, you filled in a hole in my knowledge base. I had expected that the fixed orifice valve would have caused greatly variable performance depending on RPM. I now see how that can be accounted for in this system.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
If you convert from R-12 to 134a, one thing to keep in mind is the oil in the system. Two different types are used & I've read that they do not play well with each other if they mix. I went to great lengths to clean out the old oil when I did my retrofit. I had good results. I'd be interested to hear if you had any issues if you did not clean out the old stuff. I always wondered if I had wasted my time with the big clean out. I pulled both the evap & the condenser, as well as all hoses, so that I could clean them well. It was a lot of work.
I did the conversion back in 2012 ......... I did all the flushing! Then, due to old hoses, leaks, breaks, etc., in 2017, I replaced the hoses and flushed the condenser and evaporator as well as installed a new Compressor and Expansion Valve. The issue I have with the Vanagon is knowing how much weight to use. So, I have to "play with it" until I find the sweet spot of preferred cooling as I discussed previously.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Lots of white noise and cross-posting in this thread. A retrofit is going to change things, and different systems work differently under different conditions.

It is difficult (not impossible) to really assess any system's ability to remove heat based solely on pressures. This is why systems are [properly] charged by weight. Retrofits and custom stuff (like an ALH in a Vanagon) do not apply here.

The manufacturer has already done all the math to determine the charge amount, and where it works best for heat removal and compressor function. Second guessing this is silly. I am speaking to a factory, unmodified, system. You can have a too low (or, marginally, too high) of a charge, and still get (to the operator) satisfactory heat removal. But it doesn't mean the system as a whole is working as well as it should, as it will still lose efficiency.

Think of it like this: a 6 cyl car can maintain 60 MPH with only 4 cylinders functioning. But those 4 cylinders are working harder than they normally would be, and the overall efficiency of the engine is going to be way down. Just because the operator only wants to cruise at 60 MPH steady and says "oh, the engine runs fine" does not actually mean the engine is in good health.

Once you throw in these modern systems that have all kinds of variables, and a VERY thin margin of proper charge amount, you can really screw things up quite easily.

Our shop garners lots of business from DIYrs and those stupid cans. Especially on the [Toyota] hybrids. Boy, you try and force a can in those and $$BIGNUM$$ stuff happens. :D
 
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