A3 TDI Buyback Fail

[rfortson]

Speculating, but using the expected turn in date rather than the date scheduled would seem to be the most likely glitch. Since you could put in a date all the way out to 12/31/2018 early on, if that date continues to be used through the rest of the process, it would inflate numbers by miscomputing the number of months to give the 1042 credit for. Once getting to the offer stage, it would seem that they would have to generate a couple of offers depending on which of the 3 months you pick the turn in date in, and the miles each is valid for. This would likely create even more confusion, offer 1: month 1, miles x to next 5k, offer 2: month 1, miles from next 5k to next 10k, offer 3: month 2 miles x to next 5k+1042, and so on. Folks can't figure this out on their own, presenting them with 6 offers based on the month you return, and the miles at the time of turn in will not turn out well.

Yeah, I can see your point on schedule way out. However, in my case I never picked a date other than the default 1 Nov 16 that was on the website, and then I picked the earliest turn-in appointment I could.

In the OP's case, maybe it made a difference. I still think the notarized offer letter is the overriding document. I mean, I signed it in ink, using cursive letters!

 

[chadbag]

Speculating, but using the expected turn in date rather than the date scheduled would seem to be the most likely glitch. Since you could put in a date all the way out to 12/31/2018 early on, if that date continues to be used through the rest of the process, it would inflate numbers by miscomputing the number of months to give the 1042 credit for. Once getting to the offer stage, it would seem that they would have to generate a couple of offers depending on which of the 3 months you pick the turn in date in, and the miles each is valid for. This would likely create even more confusion, offer 1: month 1, miles x to next 5k, offer 2: month 1, miles from next 5k to next 10k, offer 3: month 2 miles x to next 5k+1042, and so on. Folks can't figure this out on their own, presenting them with 6 offers based on the month you return, and the miles at the time of turn in will not turn out well.

If the 1042 miles/month is approximately for correct, it does not matter which month the turn in is. Since VW gives and then takes away 1042 for each month and it comes out a wash. That would only affect people who have parked or are driving a significant number of miles more than 1042 a month in the mean time.

But they would not know that until the actual turn in when they double check the mileage and so any paper checks would have had to be printed against the actual offer number, which they seem to not be doing.

 

[DanB36]

To me (and to the buy back rep I dealt with), the offer letter is the official amount.

But it isn't. It says right in the letter, immediately below the payment breakdown, "please note that the total payment may change based on updated mileage at the time of your buyback appointment." That offer letter is based on assumptions (which themselves are at least partially based on data you entered) about both your mileage and your turn-in date. If those assumptions lead to an incorrect result, it will be adjusted to reflect reality.

 

[autdi]

Yeah, I can see your point on schedule way out. However, in my case I never picked a date other than the default 1 Nov 16 that was on the website, and then I picked the earliest turn-in appointment I could.

In the OP's case, maybe it made a difference. I still think the notarized offer letter is the overriding document. I mean, I signed it in ink, using cursive letters!

Since I don't have one, does the offer letter indicate the miles the car must have on it at turn in for the offer to be valid? I don't see how you can have an offer with an unlimited timespan in the future, and no miles shown and expect it to be binding. Really, the turn in date selected is a necessary input to the offer algorithm.

 

[chadbag]

But it isn't. It says right in the letter, immediately below the payment breakdown, "please note that the total payment may change based on updated mileage at the time of your buyback appointment." That offer letter is based on assumptions (which themselves are at least partially based on data you entered) about both your mileage and your turn-in date. If those assumptions lead to an incorrect result, it will be adjusted to reflect reality.

Yes, but only based on mileage. If a paper check the initial check should equal the offer amount (since they won't know mileage until turn in) and in the A3 case it wasn't.

In other cases, for example @rfortson, it seems there was no mileage issue per the turn-in specialist.

So the offer amount in the offer letter IS the amount unless, and only unless, mileage considerations found at time of turn-in warrant an adjustment. That does not seem to be the case. (@rfortson had parked his from what I understand).

 

[nattyboh2027]

Boy oh Boy, if my money was messed with at the time of the appointment, I wouldn't be leaving until its resolved....Like to the point I'm not leaving, if they refused to get it resolved called the cops to remove me.

 

[DanB36]

It would seem strange that they would not write the check against the offer letter amount since they don't know or any mileage issues really until you turn in, unless you were able to update them on mileage when you uploaded the notarized offer.

But you can (and do) update the mileage when you schedule the appointment, which is obviously going to be before the appointment itself. It seems most logical that that mileage reading is going to be used (or at least, should be used) in determining the amount of the check, since it's the closest-in-time information they have.

I think the bottom line is that VW needs to give a more detailed breakdown of the payment, both in the offer letter and the receipt. The offer letter should say something very similar to "this offer is based on your car being returned in December 2016 with xx,xxx miles. Changes to date or mileage may affect your total payment."

 

[nattyboh2027]

What does it take in order for them to get it right even at the buyback appointment???

Should have we have to take to the extreme and have a lawyer present!!???

VW/Audi needs to burn in hell!

 

[chadbag]

But you can (and do) update the mileage when you schedule the appointment, which is obviously going to be before the appointment itself. It seems most logical that that mileage reading is going to be used (or at least, should be used) in determining the amount of the check, since it's the closest-in-time information they have.

I think the bottom line is that VW needs to give a more detailed breakdown of the payment, both in the offer letter and the receipt. The offer letter should say something very similar to "this offer is based on your car being returned in December 2016 with xx,xxx miles. Changes to date or mileage may affect your total payment."

Agreed. But it does not appear to be happening that way based on scattered reports, but really not enough info to be sure. Need more info to be able to get more info.

With @rfortson there was no additional mileage (except maybe a few inconsequential to get to the dealership) if I understand it correctly as he had parked it.

Anyway, time will tell.

 

[rfortson]

But it isn't. It says right in the letter, immediately below the payment breakdown, "please note that the total payment may change based on updated mileage at the time of your buyback appointment." That offer letter is based on assumptions (which themselves are at least partially based on data you entered) about both your mileage and your turn-in date. If those assumptions lead to an incorrect result, it will be adjusted to reflect reality.

You mean right before it says "Continuing to drive your car an average of 12,500 miles per year or fewer will not reduce your compensation"?

My car wasn't driven. If the conditions of the offer changed, they would need to be documented somewhere. They weren't, therefore the offer letter is still the binding document. Nothing has superceded it.

 

[showdown 42]

I don't see how an amount can be arrived at until the car is at the dealer and inspected as condition and mileage. None of this process makes any sen without the car being inspected.

How did they arrive at either amounts being talked about? I'm waiting till the last month 2018 when things should be smoothed out.

 

[DanB36]

Condition is irrelevant as long as it can move under its own power. Mileage is, of course, very relevant.

 

[rfortson]

I don't see how an amount can be arrived at until the car is at the dealer and inspected as condition and mileage. None of this process makes any sen without the car being inspected.

How did they arrive at either amounts being talked about? I'm waiting till the last month 2018 when things should be smoothed out.

This is the key point I think people are overlooking here. The payment number is already decided by VW before the appointment occurs. There is no chance for an adjustment. The buy-back rep is literally turning a crank that "yep, the car arrived on it's own power". The amount of the EFT or check has been predetermined. In my case, and many others, predetermined incorrectly.

 

[Stewie]

Or our very own pics.tdiclub.com.

I uploaded my contract and my receipt yesterday to this site, but for some reason they don't appear yet. Will try again.

 

[bring]

I suspect that very few people will remember the date they put down for their turn-in. I just notarized and uploaded my documents and I don't think the turn-in date is printed on it, but I'm not going to bother checking. I don't remember the specific date I put in months ago and the person who started the thread said his claim on the portal was closed so he couldn't access it anymore. The ambassador apparently didn't have the original turn-in date and neither did anyone he called (or tweeted).

I'm guessing that most picked the earliest date

 

[Stewie]

Speculating, but using the expected turn in date rather than the date scheduled would seem to be the most likely glitch. Since you could put in a date all the way out to 12/31/2018 early on, if that date continues to be used through the rest of the process, it would inflate numbers by miscomputing the number of months to give the 1042 credit for. Once getting to the offer stage, it would seem that they would have to generate a couple of offers depending on which of the 3 months you pick the turn in date in, and the miles each is valid for. This would likely create even more confusion, offer 1: month 1, miles x to next 5k, offer 2: month 1, miles from next 5k to next 10k, offer 3: month 2 miles x to next 5k+1042, and so on. Folks can't figure this out on their own, presenting them with 6 offers based on the month you return, and the miles at the time of turn in will not turn out well.

Stewie here, I am going to try and reply to several posts here to confirm what happened.

Firstly, the majority of you folks on this forum have a far clearer idea of how the program works, than the majority of the Audi folks I have talked with on the phone for at least six hours over the last 24 hours.

I went through some printouts I made of what I saw on the site back on August 28th, 2016 when they first provided that worksheet that would come back with various offer numbers depending on what surrender date, and what projected mileage you put in.

I tried a variety of surrender dates using my very low (50 miles/week) mileage accumulation rate. I distinctly recall my offer amount did not change one dollar, even going all the way out to september 2018. I recall hitting sept 2018 as being the absolute last month you could put in.

In my mind, any time out to September 2018 I would be provided the $37,726.73 amount, provided I did not drive more than 12,500 miles per year.

Entirely possible I left that worksheet with the August 2017 date as my last, "let's try this combo and see what the offer is"

As the months passed, I recall getting various notifications that the portal had new pages, and new requests for information. I had to upload my title, upload my registration etc. I did all that.

Was delighted to be notified that all was well, and to download the offer letter. I do not recall being asked to reconfirm my surrender date at that time, or to reconfirm my projected mileage.

The offer letter was consistent with my last worksheet. Key point here; The offer letter in no manner repeats back what you selected for the surrender date and the projected mileage. Had there been a sentence like: "Amounts herein reflect your indication to surrender your vehicle August 2017 with an estimated mileage of 28,000 miles. Should you decide to surrender your vehicle earlier or later than date shown, or with accumulated miles different than what you estimated, your final settlement amount may be lower or higher than is what's shown in this letter" much pain could have been avoided.

When you input your mileage when you select your appointment time, it would have been nice to see a pop-up "The mileage and appointment time you have chosen do not match what's in your settlement agreement and may result in a settlement amount different than what's in your offer letter. Do you still want to proceed?"

Lesson learned: By the time you get to being able to download your offer letter, whatever surrender date/mileage has been baked in. Understand that if you go off of that, despite there being no specific reference to said mileage and timing in the offer letter, you will be presented with a value that is different. Despite all the official looking nature of the offer letter, they will pay you based on the charts.

As soon as I can get the TDI Pics working, I will come back and upload my offer letter.

 

[chadbag]

This is the key point I think people are overlooking here. The payment number is already decided by VW before the appointment occurs. There is no chance for an adjustment. The buy-back rep is literally turning a crank that "yep, the car arrived on it's own power". The amount of the EFT or check has been predetermined. In my case, and many others, predetermined incorrectly.

IANAL and all that.

Release not withstanding, I would think you could use small claims court to press for payment of any missing amounts if the payment does not match the offer letter's payment offer amount and there was no mileage adjustment necessary, since a condition of the release is receiving the settlement benefits and you did not receive your full settlement benefits, and the release was in conjunction with a signed offer contract that was not fulfilled on VWs part.

IANALAIDPOOTV.

 

[chadbag]

Despite all the official looking nature of the offer letter, they will pay you based on the charts.
As soon as I can get the TDI Pics working, I will come back and upload my offer letter.

What do the charts say for you?

What year and trim is your A3? Any extra options?

Mileage at turn in?

State?

We can run the calculations and see if Audi was correct according to the charts.

However, the offer is a legal offer of amount and as long as your mileage does not affect it should have legal standing as far as I would think. I am not a lawyer.

 

[bizzle]

No, you don't go to small claims for the remainder of any money from VW. This is the result of a settlement and concerns of it not being adhered to go to the judge overseeing the process.

Also, chadbag is wrong on how he is calculating the amounts but multiple people have explained it to him but since he's convinced himself that he's right and we're all wrong there isn't any point in continuing to argue with him.

Go to one of those unofficial calculators and you can test the theory yourself of whether putting in a later date than your actual turn-in while the mileage stays the same results in a larger payout. https://agrahamg.github.io/VWBuybackCalculator/

If you don't drive at all and you turn the car in earlier than you expected the final payout will be less. The mileage I'm at would require me to have the car parked until after February, which isn't worth the insurance and registration costs since it's only an three hundred dollars. The compensation break-down is in tiers so you have to add multiple months for the value to change, it doesn't recalculate every month.

Put the car's information in, set buyback date for this month, then add 12 months to it, and it will be obvious what happened in this situation.

 

[ericy]

However, the offer is a legal offer of amount and as long as your mileage does not affect it should have legal standing as far as I would think. I am not a lawyer.

It is, but the amount is contingent on the number of miles at turn-in. When you accept the offer letter, you *then* have an opportunity to tell them the current mileage on the car, and this of course might change the calculations.

If you got paid what the charts said you should have gotten paid, then I don't see what the fuss is all about.

 

[chadbag]

No, you don't go to small claims for the remainder of any money from VW. This is the result of a settlement and concerns of it not being adhered to go to the judge overseeing the process.

Also, chadbag is wrong on how he is calculating the amounts but multiple people have explained it to him but since he's convinced himself that he's right and we're all wrong there isn't any point in continuing to argue with him.

Go to one of those unofficial calculators and you can test the theory yourself of whether putting in a later date than your actual turn-in while the mileage stays the same results in a larger payout. https://agrahamg.github.io/VWBuybackCalculator/

If you don't drive at all and you turn the car in earlier than you expected the final payout will be less. The mileage I'm at would require me to have the car parked until after February, which isn't worth the insurance and registration costs since it's only an three hundred dollars. The compensation break-down is in tiers so you have to add multiple months for the value to change, it doesn't recalculate every month.

Put the car's information in, set buyback date for this month, then add 12 months to it, and it will be obvious what happened in this situation.

The small claims comment is a last resort if it is not sorted by the courts. I certainly would use small claims if I had a signed contract that was not adhered to by one party.

I am not wrong, as I never assumed the car was parked. YOU made that assumption. VW cannot know you will park the car or barely drive it and does not adjust for that case. They assume you will drive it. No one "explained it to me", they just made the claim without explanation. I fully explained that my calculation was based on VWs assumption about accumulating mileage.

We have new information from Stewie that he barely drives it, so I am more inclined to believe that the mileage is the difference. But that is new information.

 

[chadbag]

It is, but the amount is contingent on the number of miles at turn-in. When you accept the offer letter, you *then* have an opportunity to tell them the current mileage on the car, and this of course might change the calculations.

If you got paid what the charts said you should have gotten paid, then I don't see what the fuss is all about.

Agreed. I never said anything different.

if the payment does not match the offer letter's payment offer amount and there was no mileage adjustment necessary

Just one of the many times I mentioned that it was dependent on the final mileage check.

 

[bizzle]

We have new information from Stewie that he barely drives it, so I am more inclined to believe that the mileage is the difference. But that is new information.

The very first post of this entire thread states he only drove it 10 miles/day in the second paragraph. Airpizz6 first explained the mileage vs. turn-in date issue in post #9 of this thread, also on the first page. He provided more details for the explanation, as have I, multiple times since in this thread that you've either ignored or refused to listen to. None of what I wrote was "new" information unless you haven't actually been reading the posts you've been replying to

Post #34 is where you make the incorrect assertion that turn-in date does not matter so long as the mileage is not increased. I corrected you in post #35 and then you re-itereated your mistaken belief in post #36 and continued from there regardless of how many people tried telling you that your understanding of the calculation process was incorrect.

 

[chadbag]

The very first post of this entire thread states he only drove it 10 miles/day in the second paragraph. Airpizz6 first explained the mileage vs. turn-in date issue in post #9 of this thread, also on the first page. He provided more details for the explanation, as have I, multiple times since in this thread that you've either ignored or refused to listen to. None of what I wrote was "new" information unless you haven't actually been reading the posts you've been replying to

Post #34 is where you make the incorrect assertion that turn-in date does not matter so long as the mileage is not increased. I corrected you in post #35 and then you re-itereated your mistaken belief in post #36.

The mileage does not matter as long as mileage is not increased (past the allowed amount). It says that right in the offer, using other words. The math supports it as well. What I did not understand is the comment about a turn-in date of Aug 17 being from the original registration, and Audi calculating from that date for the actual offer, since my understanding of that date was it was just a convenience for customer understanding of the process, and my registration never asked for my monthly mileage that I can remember. So that was my bad. My assumption and statement was that Audi was applying the 1042 miles per month to their offer based on the mileage one gave to them for the car whenever they asked for it (registration, etc).

The problem here is, and I apologize for not realizing that his "10 miles/day" statement was a statement of miles driven since the registration. To me it was part of the overall statement of the condition of the car. My bad for that too.

 

[Stewie]

Stewie here. I provided a bunch of detail back on post #76.

I also added some updates and a great helpline number to call in my opening post.

 

[bizzle]

Fair enough.

If you go back through the thread, you'll notice on the 2nd page (with my display settings) that Stewie points out he uploaded the actual mileage in November and then put barely 50 more miles on it in the last month (post #18). He then posts in #24 that an Audi rep confirmed with him that he did submit an Aug 2017 turn-in date. Then Airpizz6 explains in post #26 how the calculation works since Stewie asked how the Audi response made sense.

 

[chadbag]

Fair enough.

If you go back through the thread, you'll notice on the 2nd page (with my display settings) that Stewie points out he uploaded the actual mileage in November and then put barely 50 more miles on it in the last month (post #18). He then posts in #24 that an Audi rep confirmed with him that he did submit an Aug 2017 turn-in date. Then Airpizz6 explains in post #26 how the calculation works since Stewie asked how the Audi response made sense.

Just goes to show that you can physically see something but only actually see what you think you should be seeing. (Say that fast 10 times fast).

(Translation, while I read all the words in the posts mentioned, my brain did not comprehend them since I was working on certain assumptions). My bad.

 

[DanB36]

This is the key point I think people are overlooking here. The payment number is already decided by VW before the appointment occurs.

No, I don't believe this is correct. I'm not "overlooking" this point; I disagree with it. If you show up with your car, and it has 100k more miles than you said it had, do you still think VW's bound to the number on the offer letter? What about if it's 10k more?

The correct answer, I believe, is that VW's obligated to pay you what the payment charts say, applied as of the date you turn in the car. The amount on the offer letter necessarily assumes some mileage (or mileage range) and month of turn-in. It has to, because mileage is necessarily a factor in the buyback value. Unfortunately, the offer letter doesn't tell us what those are, so we're left guessing. And the letter says as much, but then confuses the issue by saying that driving less than 12500 miles/year will not reduce the buyback amount.

Your position appears to be that VW is absolutely bound to the amount on the offer letter, irrespective of the mileage on the car at the time of turn-in. I don't believe this is correct; I believe the amount that VW's required to pay you is what's on the charts.

 

[chadbag]

No, I don't believe this is correct. I'm not "overlooking" this point; I disagree with it. If you show up with your car, and it has 100k more miles than you said it had, do you still think VW's bound to the number on the offer letter? What about if it's 10k more?

The correct answer, I believe, is that VW's obligated to pay you what the payment charts say, applied as of the date you turn in the car. The amount on the offer letter necessarily assumes some mileage (or mileage range) and month of turn-in. It has to, because mileage is necessarily a factor in the buyback value. Unfortunately, the offer letter doesn't tell us what those are, so we're left guessing. And the letter says as much, but then confuses the issue by saying that driving less than 12500 miles/year will not reduce the buyback amount.

Your position appears to be that VW is absolutely bound to the amount on the offer letter, irrespective of the mileage on the car at the time of turn-in. I don't believe this is correct; I believe the amount that VW's required to pay you is what's on the charts.

I don't think @rfortson disagrees with the final mileage check at turn-in possibly affecting it. I think he is saying that they are using the original estimate, and not the mileage uploaded at appointment scheduling to get the base amount.

 

[DanB36]

I think he is saying that they are using the original estimate, and not the mileage uploaded at appointment scheduling to get the base amount.

But neither estimate is particularly meaningful, ultimately. The original estimate is based one one set of assumptions with respect to turn-in date and mileage on that date. The offer letter, apparently, is based on different assumptions. But neither controls what a claimant will actually be paid--that's determined by the actual mileage, and the actual date.