A thought about VW Keys and the immobilizer

[BudsBug]

I keep seeing the immobilizer key issue come up. I have 2 thoughts:

1st Kill the immobilizer!! I wonder if the VAG-COM can disable this monster with some code. I would ask if any of the chippers may have seen a way to do this.
Can we fake it out using a wire that could be tied high, low or switched. If we knew the expected response we should be able to beat it as long as it isn't a code that is generated as a response I would expect a high true or low false of at most a state change IE. low high for a time 1/2 second than low.

2nd Has anyone attempted the remote starter trick whereas you wrap a thin (20-30 gage) wire around the key cylinder 3 times and around a good key 3x to send the code from the known key. This may require drilling out the transponder in the new key or using one of the steel keys with no transponder that people have gotten off of Ebay that wont work on their car and can't be programed.

We need to get a way from the 3 digit $$$.$$ key the cars. At some point will cars will be worth less than a new key for them

 

[penclnck]

The immobilzer itself is in the instrument cluster, so chip tuning the ECM isn't going to solve anything. The immobilzer does check out the ECM to make sure it hasn't changed... swap out an ECM and the immobilizer will kick in until you recode it.

VAG COM can't disable it, there isn't any code you can input to make it bypass.

The problem with hard wiring a key into the dash then becomes any fool with a screw driver can start your car and drive away since the immobilizer wouldn't know the differance.

There are other ways that don't involve GeKo for getting the PIN numbers for immobilizer. People who are selling used FIS clusters are able to reset the odometer back to 0 and pull the PIN number up, so there is a way to do it. If I felt like forking over $550-ish I could purchase software/hardware that would let me pull PIN numbers though the data port on most VW and Audi cars.

IMHO, the current system in place, GeKo, will go down in a flaming class action lawsuit. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

 

[BudsBug]

Thanks for the info I can't believe in ten to fifteen years a VW gasser more so than a TDI. A set of lost key replace 3 of them will cost more then the book value on the car. So if you have a fire take your keys, I guess

 

[jnecr]

If you have a fire, insurance will pay. If your car gets stolen, insurane will pay. If you have a wreck and somehow your keys get mangled, insurance will pay.

If you lose your keys and never find them, you deserve to have to buy new ones.

Don't be so paranoid, what's your real reason for wanting to get rid of IMMO?

 

[BudsBug]

It seems to be a huge revenue stream for VWOA and stealerships at our expense. I killed 1 fob and will replace the fob only that's around $50 I can understand that but the number of folks saying the Stealership want 10 x that for a new key is obscene. I can understand a fair profit but I need to get a product that I can make 1000% profit on thats a good investment!!!
I just want to give the folks needing keys an option. As I see it the alarm will still work so who would know that you could start the car with a lock pick? Btw I don't think most picks would work worth a darn because these keys are really odd ducks.

 

[skippytdi]

It was mentioned to me that burying a transponder in the right vecinity behind the ignition may fool the immobilizer enough so as to allow a "normal" key to start the car.
It may be easier to bury just the actual chip if it were removed from the transponder key.
Maybe if someone has an nonfunctioning flip key they would be willing to take it apart and photograph it so as to be able to locate the chip.
Its nice to have the remote but IMO plain key startups would be nice.
Who steals VWs anyways?
Mike P.

 

[tdireader]

It was mentioned to me that burying a transponder in the right vecinity behind the ignition may fool the immobilizer enough so as to allow a "normal" key to start the car.
It may be easier to bury just the actual chip if it were removed from the transponder key.
Maybe if someone has an nonfunctioning flip key they would be willing to take it apart and photograph it so as to be able to locate the chip.
Its nice to have the remote but IMO plain key startups would be nice.
Who steals VWs anyways?
Mike P.

I seem to remember the immo chip being under the blue and white vw decal.

 

[LNXGUY]

Buy a 99.5, no Imb

 

[penclnck]

Sure one could dig out the immobilizer chip from a key and place it behind the steering colum trim next to the ignition switch and "fool the immoblizer" into thinking a good key has been used... but I see 2 problems with this... a screw driver become as correct key to allow the engine to run and if you use a different (but correct key) and the immoblizedr gets 2 different signals, it will shut the engine down.

Exxon "Speed Pass" and other type devices can confuse the immobilzer system. Having 2 of the car's keys on the same key ring can cause the immobilizer to shut down.

This is the cost of progress.

 

[Mike_n_NC]

penclnck, the lock and tumblers of the ignition switch and key are still required the turn the ign switch. Just like in granpas old 68 pick up. The chip is the electronic part of the immobilizer. I can vouch for it working, read on........

I just bought my 03 in Nov 05. I got 1 key with the the car. No Owners manual, no Valet key or 2nd key fob and remote. If you separate the remote from the key like your changing the battery in the remote, the chip and key are in the same half. For fear of losing my only key or locking it inside the car, it was necessary to get at least 1 backup.

I bought a used key fob & cut key, off of ebay for $28 + shipping, a key blank off ebay for $9 + shipping, and blank Valet key with chip off ebay for $24 + shipping. Shipping in each case was less than $5. (about $72 so far) the key fob from the dealer is about $185, Valet key $65 and you still have to pay the cutting & coding fee. Dealers can't get a key blank to put in the fob should you break or bend the key portion. I removed the cut key and installed the key blank(you'll need a very small punch). My key I got with the car was a Huf, this blank was a Valeo. Both are oem makers. For $43 dollars the dealer cut and attempted to code both keys. the used switchblade key for some reason would not accept recoding. The remote portion worked great though. I just bought the half I needed from the dealer right then since I would have been charged another $43 dollars again for cut & coding had I left and came back later. Total leaving with a cut & coded Valet key, switchblade key/fob and a cut key that works all the locks but won't start the car was $106 and some change. add the earlier $72= $178. less than the dealer key fob price.

A locksmith could do this with the right equipment however there are none in my area so equipped.

I'll take aprt my extra key half to diasect the chip and take pics!

 

[ele28]

I bought a used key fob & cut key, off of ebay for $28 + shipping, a key blank off ebay for $9 + shipping,

FYI the Immo 3 transpondent is locked after 1st adaptation and cannot be used again in other car, its safe for Immo2 users to get used keys off eBay because they are not locked and can be adapted again. You can get Immo3 transpondent in EU for about 23€ plus shipping. The Immobilizer in TDI can be easy disabled without problems, most tuners can do it but its expensive (few hundreds), the Immo light will be ON all the time, but this can be solved as well using Immo emulator which will illuminate light for few seconds and it will look as the Immobilizer is working .

 

[Mike_n_NC]

FYI the Immo 3 transpondent is locked after 1st adaptation and cannot be used again in other car, its safe for Immo2 users to get used keys off eBay because they are not locked and can be adapted again. .

ele28, How do you know if you have Immo 3 transpondent or Immo 2 transpondent chipped key? Mike n NC

 

[ele28]

ele28, How do you know if you have Immo 3 transpondent or Immo 2 transpondent chipped key? Mike n NC

Its simple, look at the suffix on remote part #, all remotes with AM at the end (1J0 959 753 AM) are Immo3, remotes with F or T (its Immo3 style remote for Immo 2 cars) are Immo 2. Its another solution to fix Immo3 transpondent, done in the past

 

[ele28]

There are other ways that don't involve GeKo for getting the PIN numbers for immobilizer. People who are selling used FIS clusters are able to reset the odometer back to 0 and pull the PIN number up, so there is a way to do it. If I felt like forking over $550-ish I could purchase software/hardware that would let me pull PIN numbers though the data port on most VW and Audi cars.

IMHO, the current system in place, GeKo, will go down in a flaming class action lawsuit. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Its not totally true, if you are thinking about Marcus software, then it works fine with A4 generation and Audi A6, but it wont work on Audi A4, nobody has yet a software to read SKC from crypto data through OBD on Audi A4 from 2002-2005, the same with Jetta 5, the SKC is encrypted in the cluster not like in the A4 Jetta. But everything can be done

 

[BudsBug]

I have a paper from when I bought my car to my credit union .This has a 5 digit key number on it the first 2 digits are 00 could this be my SKC my CU required a key number for the paperwork. I hope thats what the number is . If you put in the wrong number to the Vagcom will it kill your key from working as the first thing in the instructions after you log in seems to wipe out all keys from your car if that were to happen would I need to go to the dealer

 

[BudsBug]

Its not totally true, if you are thinking about Marcus software, then it works fine with A4 generation and Audi A6, but it wont work on Audi A4, nobody has yet a software to read SKC from crypto data through OBD on Audi A4 from 2002-2005, the same with Jetta 5, the SKC is encrypted in the cluster not like in the A4 Jetta. But everything can be done

If this is the case if you have only 1 key this could cost less than having 3 new ones made at the dealer

 

[KevinR]

I have to ask: how does one kill a key for these cars?

I dropped the key for my 2000 Jetta more times than I could count and it never gave me a problem.

I screwed up, left the key to my 2003 New Beetle in my pants pocket and ran them through the washer and dryer three times and the key still works.

So, what kills them?

 

[BudsBug]

A lot of folks only got 1 key when they bought there car used others have misplaced them I dropped on in a lake while fishing never found it about 20' deep man made silty as all get out. What I started here was a list of possible ways to get more cars on without paying hundreds to the Stealerships. I can't imagine only having 1 key

 

[thatvan]

On the key thing there is a way to get Ebay keys for Immo 3 cars cheap. I bought an Ebay key for like 30 bucks shipped then ordered a new transponder key from AmericanAutoLock for around 20 shipped. Plus a key blank again off Ebay for 9 shipped thats a 59 dollar Key. All you have to do is move the new transponder chip from the new key to the Fob key. Theres a good write up on the TEX for changing the chip.

 

[pgoes]

When I got my car I had 2 remotes and no valet key. My wife promptly lost one of the keys, so I just bought another- $50 + $20 to cut the blank. Now I have to bend over and submit to the dealer for programming the immobilizer.

-My new remote is an IMMO 3, but looks brand new- am I screwed like elo28 says, that the chip is locked?
- How is the valet key different from the standard switchblade? where is the immobilizer transponder stored?
- My new key & remote works fine, but of course won't start the car, even if I hold the original key right next to it. What's up with that?

 

[BudsBug]

Sure one could dig out the immobilizer chip from a key and place it behind the steering colum trim next to the ignition switch and "fool the immobilizer" into thinking a good key has been used... but I see 2 problems with this... a screw driver become as correct key to allow the engine to run and if you use a different (but correct key) and the immobilized gets 2 different signals, it will shut the engine down.

Exxon "Speed Pass" and other type devices can confuse the immobilzer system. Having 2 of the car's keys on the same key ring can cause the immobilizer to shut down.

This is the cost of progress.

Looks like you need to take the chip out of the new one as they seem to interfere with one and other. You can remove the blade from the fob with a small punch or pick on the part that turns just above the button to open the switchblade with the key half way between locked and open. This is a test so don't kill the chip just get it away from the ignition area put it on the passenger seat.

 

[dieselgus]

And, in other interesting news.

As someone who basically gets paid to hotwire cars for a living (I am a 12V electronics installer by trade.... remote starters), I can tell you a few things:

1) Main issue is breakage on the actual antenna wires leading from the reader to the cluster. They are very small...... 28ga or so. In the cold, moving the column a lot will do this.

2) The RFID pellet on the VW keys lives along the outer edge of the key.... for those of you with valet keys, the two halves of the head pop apart. You will see a torpedo shaped glass pellet. This is the RFID pellet. It is in roughly the same location on the switchblade key. It is not accessable without doing major damage to the key (irreparable) on the switchblade key. The antenna around the chamber in the column reads using it's outer edge, like 1/16" or so, and towards the interior of the car. Simply gluing the pellet to the back of the ignition switch, or even the antenna itself will not read. It is an extremely low power, narrow window for the reader (micro watts)....... and the pellet pretty much needs to be within 1/8" of the antennas fronte (visible) side.

3) On immobilizer 3 cars, a key that is not seen by the cluster in around 4 months of daily start cycles, will be dropped by the system. It assumes lost or stolen, and will remove that key from the memory for system integrety's sake.

4) The car only reads the key until the end of the crank cycle. It then could care less if a valid key is in the ignition.

5) It doesen't really care about seeing 2 keys at once... as long as both are valid keys for the car. Due to the transmission power of the system.... you would need to have both keys within 1/4" of the antenna.... not an easy feat with the size of these keys.

Dropping your key a lot will eventually crack the glass pellet... this will let moisture accumulate inside the tube, and will eventually render the circutry inside the tube inoperable (ues... there is a weee little board in that tube.....)

VW does use one of the more secure systems...... GM on the other hand uses the least secure system (PK3). PK3 can be gotten around without any programmed keys for the vehicle...... all you need is a PK3 key that is cut for the ignition. I know the procedure, but I am not sharing it.... for obvious reasons

Ford, Dodge, Mits, all need 2 valid keys to program additional keys (Fords will hold up to 10 valid keys, BTW.... then it will bump #1 when #11 is leasnrd, and so forth) Dodge, and Mits are both using a Phillips system that also "marries" the programmed key to the vehicle. Once a key is programmed to a Dodge product, it can not be programmed to any other car, no matter what (unique to the Phillips system) VW, BMW, and Mercedes all require the use of an SKC for additional key programming.... Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, and Kia require the scan tool be used to get into programming mode (well... Toyotas you can do with a combination of gas pedal and brake presses... the scan tool is just easier). Mazda uses Ford keys. (and there are now 7 different Ford key based Immobilizer types, BTW. And 5 of them look pretty much the same key wise..... an interesting challenge to say the least)

I'll be more than happy to field anyone's additional questions on these things.....


Gus

 

[Frank M]

And, in other interesting news.
As someone who basically gets paid to hotwire cars for a living (I am a 12V electronics installer by trade.... remote starters), I can tell you a few things:
I'll be more than happy to field anyone's additional questions on these things..... Gus

nice post Gus
What system does the 05 Jaguar use?

 

[oilhammer]

The newer Toyota and Lexus vehicles don't have the song and dance with the gas pedal and locks available anymore, and some don't even have "keys" in the traditional sense.

FWIW I think the governments are pushing for immobilisers...some had them manditory years ago (South Africa). Insurance companies like them, too. It makes it much tougher to steal the car, although if you have enough of the right equipment and know the right people in the right places you can still get around them.

Rather than fight the system, if you just excercise a few bits of common sense you'll likely not have any problems:

don't abuse the keys physically. They are not dog toys, baby toys, toothpicks, paperweights, or wheelchocks. Don't throw them, either!

Always be sure and have more than one key for the car, and rotate thier use so that the imobiliser won't render them useless (on some newer systems).

Don't disconnect the battery for any reason unless you are SURE you ABSOLUTELY need to. And be prepared to need something reset if you do. Best thing on a Volkswagen is to take advantage of the fact that the lighter/power outlet remain powered after the key is off. You can easily plug a "memory saver" in there and keep all the car's systems' keep-alive memory powered up with a 9v battery.

While the price is expensive for a new key, think about what you are getting: a piece of advanced electronics and a mechanical part that goes a long way to insure the safety and security of YOUR car. Some dealerships actually order a key and include the programming cost in with it...so if you do that through the parts department, ask them about it! I know all our brands at our dealership (Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes Benz, Rover, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Cadillac) include .5 hr labor in the price of the key to cover this for our customers, however the parts guys rarely will tell them unless asked. Parts guys rarely care about anyone anyways. They do get a morbid kick out of telling someone after they just paid $340 for a key for their Lexus that it won't even start their car!

Every car will have the same type setup sooner or later, and they are all pretty expensive. Volkswagen actually is one of the cheaper ones. Nissan really sticks Infiniti owners! Some keys are over $500!!!! But they are for the Q that is over $65,000 so it is all relative I guess.

 

[penclnck]

3) On immobilizer 3 cars, a key that is not seen by the cluster in around 4 months of daily start cycles, will be dropped by the system. It assumes lost or stolen, and will remove that key from the memory for system integrety's sake.

After 5 minutes of digging though the junk drawer in the kitchen, I found my plain jane key that I never use. Last time it was in the car was for when I put in the FIS cluster and adapted all 3 of my keys due to the new instrument cluster install. So this key hasn't been used in like 18 months I guess. It worked just fine and the car is driven daily. The immob system doesn't kick keys out of it's system for lack of use.

5) It doesen't really care about seeing 2 keys at once... as long as both are valid keys for the car. Due to the transmission power of the system.... you would need to have both keys within 1/4" of the antenna.... not an easy feat with the size of these keys.

It doesn't see it as 2 seperate but correct keys, it sees it as a jumbled mess that doesn't fit the profile it is looking for. I've had this happen to me a few times over the years, immob kicks in, seperate the keys and then fire the car right up. VW clearly states to have the keys [X] distance apart when adapting them, otherwise you can end up with a failed adaption.

nobody has yet a software to read SKC from crypto data through OBD on Audi A4 from 2002-2005, the same with Jetta 5, the SKC is encrypted in the cluster not like in the A4 Jetta. But everything can be done

The SKC has nothing to do with the car itself. The SKC is part of a formula that when worked yields an answer that is the 4 digit pin number. The SKC number is genrated based on the date issued and the dealer it is issued to, so same dealer on different dates will get a different SKC number for my car. Different dealers on the same day will get different SKC numbers for my car. The 5051/5052 used at dealers knows the date and what the dealer's code is, thus can work the SKC formual to get the 4 digit pin number but hide it. VAG COM does the same thing as well.

There is a program called ??pincode?? that can generate the PIN number from the SKC/dealer code/date. I had this little util a while back and was able to get the PIN number for my car before GeKo hit the scene.

I have to ask: how does one kill a key for these cars?

Leaving them out in the snow seems to be a killer. Running them though the washer and dyer is another way as well (count yourself lucky). Dropping them hasn't killed mine yet. I'm sure tossing them into the microwave would be a good way to destroy one.

 

[KevinR]

Running them though the washer and dyer is another way as well (count yourself lucky).

I do.

My Beetle didn't come with a valet key, anyone have an idea of what that key costs? I'm thinking that since I haven't needed it in 2 years, it's probably not worth the expense to me. But, it's probably good to know what it would cost.

 

[thatvan]

It is in roughly the same location on the switchblade key. It is not accessable without doing major damage to the key (irreparable) on the switchblade key.

Gus,

It is real easy to take apart the SwitchBlade key without harming it.
First remove the remote portion- Pry off the VW Logo- Remove the screw- We all fall down!

Ian

 

[BudsBug]

Do not take off the logo just pop the little roll pin above the cut part of the key and blelow the main FOB. The valet will cost almost $100 to get programmed this is what I find as scary

 

[dieselgus]

Last switchblade I took apart was rather unwilling in it's disassembly..... it was filled partially with epoxy . It eventually came apart... in several pieces. And yes, I do know there is a screw in behind the VW logo.

See, that's wierd Pencilneck..... my car dropped the key I never use at all within 6 months of getting the car. Same goes for a customer's 2004 Audi A4. Didn't use the remote start for close to 6 months, and the car dropped the valet key like a hot rock. Have also had other owners mentioning the same thing (never used the service key..... and it completely forgot it's existence) . Tres wierd.

As to the Jag immobilizer, I would imagine it is based on the Ford Securilock system. That is the one brand of car I can honestly say I haven't ever had anything to do with.... I vaguely remember doing a CD player in one years ago, but that is about it.

I still like the latest generation of GM immobilizer..... RFID pellet combined with a keychamber resistance. Good luck to any thief that wants to hotwire those things. Latest Dodge platforms are kinda neat as well. 12V, an ignition, and then a multiplexed wire that needs to see 2 different resistances at the right timing to ground in order to start the vehicle. Pretty much hot wire proof....

Gus

 

[skippytdi]

2) The RFID pellet on the VW keys lives along the outer edge of the key.... for those of you with valet keys, the two halves of the head pop apart. You will see a torpedo shaped glass pellet. This is the RFID pellet. It is in roughly the same location on the switchblade key. It is not accessable without doing major damage to the key (irreparable) on the switchblade key. The antenna around the chamber in the column reads using it's outer edge, like 1/16" or so, and towards the interior of the car. Simply gluing the pellet to the back of the ignition switch, or even the antenna itself will not read. It is an extremely low power, narrow window for the reader (micro watts)....... and the pellet pretty much needs to be within 1/8" of the antennas fronte (visible) side.

Hi Gus,
Assuming one could get the pellet in the right location for plain key starting and service, is there any reason someone could or could not wire a small switch inline with one of the antennae wires in order to temporarily enable the immobilizer when one wanted to?
Also have you ever seen the glued pellet work on a 3rd gen. VW?
Mike P.