A question for our Chemists and PetroChemical experts

[JSWTDI09]

I asked this question in another thread, but there have been no replies. I assume that it was never seen by those who might know the answer.

I have found a perfectly sized and shaped single does bottle for diesel fuel additives, but I do not know if it would be safe to use. It is a small (8oz) aluminum Diet Coke bottle. I know that acids and aluminum don't get along well, so I know that these coke cans have a polymer/epoxy/BPA lining so that the coke does not react with the aluminum. What I do not know is how well would this lining stand up to a diesel fuel additive. I plan to do a little testing before using these, but chemical engineering is not my area of expertise. I would appreciate and knowledge or recommendations that other members might have. I am currently using old Stanadyne bottles, but these aluminum bottles might stand up better to repeated usage. These are the bottles I am talking about.

Thanks in advance for any input or recommendations.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[dieseldorf]

Don, would you ever consider a thick glass bottle? For me it's a complete no-brainer, no compatibility issues and they're very durable

 

[nicklockard]

The BPA coatings are applied to prevent the Coke from aquiring a metallic taste, not to prevent the acid from eating away at the bottle. That would take decades or centuries. Aluminum forms a natural oxide barrier.

The BPA is the monomer starting material (one component) which is epoxidized to form the epoxyphenolic coating. A search of the engineering forums confirmed what I thought. Quoting Bill Choate here from the Engineering Tips Forums:

"The exact nature of the coatings isn't available since most are proprietary to manufacturers who continuously look for better coatings. Most are epichorohydrin - bisphenol A epoxy's cross-linked with urea-formaldhyde or vinyl resins or other materials."

They'll be quite robust to petroleum based solvents, but as usual, watch out for halogenated solvents.

IMO, repeated heat cycling, jostling, and agitation could cause the material to flake off. What I'd do is fill a bottle with your additive of choice, place it in a window sill where it will get repeatedly heat-cycled for a month, then pour the contents out and look for flakes or color change/other degradation. I think the coating will be fine if protected from repeated heat cycling, but it's best to test such a 'worst case' first.

 

[JSWTDI09]

Don, would you ever consider a thick glass bottle? For me it's a complete no-brainer, no compatibility issues and they're very durable

I have considered glass bottles, but I would have to pay for and then throw away whatever originally comes in them. Diet Coke has the advantage that my wife drinks it all the time, so the bottles are almost free. My plan is to cut open one of these aluminum cans and try to separate the liner material and test it with some additive and see how it stands up (or doesn't stand up) over time. It would just be nice if someone actually understood the chemistry of the can lining.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[JSWTDI09]

The BPA coatings are applied to prevent the Coke from aquiring a metallic taste, not to prevent the acid from eating away at the bottle. That would take decades or centuries. Aluminum forms a natural oxide barrier.

The reason I commented about acids is that when I was young (many years ago) a friend tried to put orange juice into an Aluminum Boy Scout canteen. The OJ and the inside of the canteen turned black. Not a pleasant experience for him.

The BPA is the monomer starting material (one component) which is epoxidized to form the epoxyphenolic coating. A search of the engineering forums confirmed what I thought. Quoting Bill Choate here from the Engineering Tips Forums:

"The exact nature of the coatings isn't available since most are proprietary to manufacturers who continuously look for better coatings. Most are epichorohydrin - bisphenol A epoxy's cross-linked with urea-formaldhyde or vinyl resins or other materials."

They'll be quite robust to petroleum based solvents, but as usual, watch out for halogenated solvents.

IMO, repeated heat cycling, jostling, and agitation could cause the material to flake off. What I'd do is fill a bottle with your additive of choice, place it in a window sill where it will get repeatedly heat-cycled for a month, then pour the contents out and look for flakes or color change/other degradation. I think the coating will be fine if protected from repeated heat cycling, but it's best to test such a 'worst case' first.

Now that is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks!!

Have Fun!

Don

 

[dieseldorf]

I have considered glass bottles, but I would have to pay for and then throw away whatever originally comes in them.

Don, I'm just using/saving these glass bottles once emptied. I'm not dumping out full bottles. That would not be fun Take a peek in your refrigerator. I'll bet you've got many candidates.

 

[Lug_Nut]

I have safety issues with re-using containers, particularly opaque drink containers, for fluids that will cause grave harm if ingested.

 

[62Lincoln]

I have considered glass bottles, but I would have to pay for and then throw away whatever originally comes in them.

Don

Take a stroll down the tobasco sauce isle at your grocer, the cost is minimal. Also look at bottles for olives and such. You might also find something you would like to consume!

 

[JSWTDI09]

I have safety issues with re-using containers, particularly opaque drink containers, for fluids that will cause grave harm if ingested.

I did think about this. I do not have children and my wife would know better than to try to drink anything in the garage. Plus, she never drinks out of a bottle, she always pours it into a glass over ice. The smell of most additives would prevent her from getting it anywhere near her mouth.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[tdiatlast]

I have safety issues with re-using containers, particularly opaque drink containers, for fluids that will cause grave harm if ingested.

I don't. It's called "natural selection", a normal process that is sadly missing in our human society.

If there are people out there going around drinking obnoxious-smelling liquid out of ANY container, even a coffee cup...well...see paragraph above.

 

[naturist]

I have safety issues with re-using containers, particularly opaque drink containers, for fluids that will cause grave harm if ingested.

I have safety issues with any container of "stuff" that is mislabeled. Doesn't matter if the label claims drinkable or not, as poisoning someone is but one way you can hurt yourself. Consider someone putting gasoline in a kerosene can; all it takes is someone (even the person who did that) using the "kerosene" in a lamp or heater, or attempting to start a fire. If you think about the problem for a bit, you will be able to think of hundreds of ways to hurt yourself or someone you love.

But the problem ISN'T reusing the container, it is not making sure it is properly relabeled!

 

[tdiatlast]

^^^good point. I stand corrected.
I haven't had to consider any of this, as I don't store the XPD, I only use the bottle to transport the liquid to the fuel station, unless I'm on a road trip...

 

[tdiatlast]

^^^good point. I stand corrected.
I haven't had to consider any of this, as I don't store the XPD, I only use the bottle to transport the liquid to the fuel station, unless I'm on a road trip...

 

[Powder Hound]

That's an interesting coke can. My only concern with such a can would be whether the screw top's gasket will withstand the fuel additive.

Good luck with this.

For the safety conscious, it would be quite easy to affix athletic tape and write a warning. Something like a black marker would work, while black marker directly on the aluminum would wipe off much too easily.

Cheers!

PH

 

[Softrockrenegade]

Lucas upper cylinder lube bottle .... Best one available.

 

[tdi90hp]

Lucas upper cylinder lube bottle .... Best one available.

good idea....

 

[JSWTDI09]

Testing Update

OK, time for an update about these aluminum Coke bottles.

I followed nicklockard's advice and filled one of these bottles with additive. I then left the bottle laying on its side (so the plastic cap seal was also exposed to the additive) in a variety of temperatures. It sat in the window exposed to the desert sun and it sat in the garage exposed to below freezing temperatures. I ran this test for several weeks. Today, I poured the additive out and cut the bottle in half to access the condition of the cap seal and the can lining.

What I learned:
1) The plastic cap seal is undamaged and looks (and feels) like new.
2) The lining on the aluminum is also undamaged and looks like new.
3) The aluminum this bottle is made from is a lot thicker than the aluminum used in cans. It was not easy to cut open, I had to use tin snips to cut it. Heavy duty shears would not easily cut it.

Conclusion:
I am going to start using these bottles to transport single tank doses of fuel additive. Also, based on Lug_Nut's warning post, I took some white electrical tape and covered up the "Diet Coke" label and made some "Opti-Lube XPD" labels to go over the white tape. Then I took some clear PVC shrink tubing and sealed the tape and label to the bottle. I will have 23 of these bottles when my wife finishes drinking all of the Diet Coke. That is more than a gallon of additive at 6oz per bottle. I think that I can now safely recommend these Coke bottles as a container for fuel additive. Thanks for all of the helpful input.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[nicklockard]

And that's how it's done. Nice!

 

[tdiatlast]

...I would expect nothing less from Don!

 

[naturist]

And that's how it's done. Nice!

Gets my vote for a "job well done."

 

[arne487]

The BPA coatings are applied to prevent the Coke from aquiring a metallic taste, not to prevent the acid from eating away at the bottle. That would take decades or centuries.

Not exactly true. It's for both. I know from personal experience in the industry that soft drinks will eat right through a non-coated aluminum container. Obviously this takes longer for a bottle than a can (since formed containers are thicker), but I've seen poorly coated cans eaten through within a week of filling.

 

[ottomatic]

Lucas upper cylinder lube bottle .... Best one available.

Here is the Best,http://www.parker.com/portal/site/P...71dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&Keyword=ADDITIVES
The bottle has a built in measure. besides being the best additive. I buy it by the case

 

[nicklockard]

Not exactly true. It's for both. I know from personal experience in the industry that soft drinks will eat right through a non-coated aluminum container. Obviously this takes longer for a bottle than a can (since formed containers are thicker), but I've seen poorly coated cans eaten through within a week of filling.

Arne, I'll take your word for it since you're in the industry. My father in law worked for Pepsi for 30+ years and backed me up. But I can concede that it is probably highly dependent on the exact alloy and metallurgical properties of the Aluminum you are specifying. The real answer is probably "it depends"; I'm glad Don was able to find the right bottle for this need.

 

[arne487]

I'm the guy that makes the cans that go to Pepsi, which means I'm the guy that hears about the issues. I've had to sort thousands of cases by hand to find the cans that went though a malfunctioning spray machine, many of which were leaking. The worst thing about a leaking can is that the contents get on the outside of other cans (which are partly uncoated) and quickly corrode them all to the point of leaking.

Anyway, the coating seems to work fine for fuel additive!

 

[JSWTDI09]

And that's how it's done. Nice!

...I would expect nothing less from Don!

Gets my vote for a "job well done."

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Enjoy!

Have Fun!

Don