A Challenge: VWAG Oil Spec Requirement

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AndyH

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San Antonio, TX
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'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
I challenge anyone to provide any documentation that shows that either VWAG or VWoA REQUIRES that an owner select their oil from an approved products list.

This will have the slightly less than lofty goal of settling a difference of opinion between another member and myself. The other member refuses to contact VWoA directly, yet doesn't believe the answer I received when I DID contact VWoA directly. :confused:

I also hope it will become a datapoint used in the club's FAQ update process...

Time starts... NOW! :D
 

dieseldorf

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AndyH said:
I challenge anyone to provide any documentation that shows that either VWAG or VWoA REQUIRES that an owner select their oil from an approved products list.
Andy, i don't think they say that. They say the oil needs to meet the VAG quality spec applicable to your specific engine.

Current oil pamphlet found at dealership:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3005/engoil_gas.pdf
 

Sooch

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2005 Golf
Some folks still clearly have a problem understanding the transitive property. If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

See the next to last paragraph on the second page of DD's pdf file, under "Need More Information" for reference to a "list".

Engine oil = VW 50X.XX, Oils/manufacturers that meet VW 50X.XX = On the list, Engine oil = On the list.
---------A=B----------,----------------------------------------B=C----------,therefore A=C.
 

SuburbanTDI

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I'll just point you to the FAQ found at Fred's TDI Club for starters.

PART TWO: "Pumpe-duse" engines.

You must use an engine oil that explicitly states that it conforms to VW 505.01, 506.01, or 507.00. NOTHING ELSE. ... ALL such oils prominently state 505.01 in large letters on the bottle. If it doesn't have that, it is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Due to the limited number of VW diesels in North America, these oils are typically available only at VW dealers and parts vendors that specialize in VW cars. ...

Beware the "meets or exceeds" game. The oil has to be certified to these standards by VW themselves in order for VW to provide warranty coverage if there is a problem. Amsoil is one notable oil brand which does not pay for such certification. It is not on VW's list of certified oils. ...

The VW part number for the oil most commonly used is G-052-167-A2 = Castrol TXT 505.01 (VW 505.01 rated, suitable for PD TDI engines; also VW 505.00 rated and suitable for non-PD TDI engines).
I know if it were me I'd find it difficult to discuss the subject with a man who makes reference to one letter - that he himself has recieved but cannot make public -- A letter which is said to allow anyone to use absolutely any oil from anywhere if someone has simply printed 505.01 on the label.

And then looks at 506.01 and 507, which is certified and widely used by VW in the PD engine and says that it's use is only authorized if an individual is in personal possession of a specific letter from VWOA that permits the holder exclusively to posess that oil in the PD engine.

The only thing I see in that reasoning is that it allows someone to buy your product because you say it's OK (based on this supersecret letter, that was sent only to you. and that you cannot publish) - while at the same time it permits you to say that using the superior standard of 506+, which is not printed on your product labels, is only allowed at great difficulty and by personal dispensation of Wolfsburg through the individual largess and at the whim of VWOA.

The TSB published by VW that lists oils certified by VW as well as the VW505.01 standard itself will only be superceded or withdrawn by a TSB issued officially by VW itself. ~ Not by secret letters sent privately to an agent of an oil company seeking to increase sales.
 
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GoFaster

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2006 Jetta TDI
jombl, please do not quote ME on the 505.01 issue, I am only regurgitating stuff that I've read here and in the owner's manual and I am not a lubrication engineer (although in my real job, I deal with this whole "certification" issue in areas NOT involving lubricants, so I have some ideas how this whole "conformance to standards" process works or doesn't work, as the case may be).

Regarding the "certified" versus "meets or exceeds" versus "printed on the label", I've seen the letter that AndyH got, and in my mind it is STILL not clear. True enough, "printed on the bottle" seems to be good enough on the surface. The understanding that I have is that in order to claim that an oil conforms to 505.01, the oil had to be submitted to VW themselves for a "black box" in-house test whose test specifications have never been publicly released. If all the tests are met then it ended up on VW's official list of certified oils. I do not understand how oils that claim they "meet or exceed" but are not on VW's certified list, can legitimately say they meet the standard without having been submitted for that "black box" test and thus print the number of the standard on the bottle. Maybe things are not as I understand them - and DO understand that I am NOT questioning the quality of certain brands of lubricants, only pointing out the potential for some legal conflict between you, VW, and the lubricant manufacturer should anything bad happen under warranty while you were using one of those lubricants that says 505.01 on the bottle but isn't on VW's official "approved" list.
 

karlaudi

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I am, it is true, the stubborn one. I hope god in her supreme wisdom takes mercy on my heretic soul.

For the record, the above member that Andy refers to is me. We have been exchanging emails all week.

His most recent being at 12:07 a.m. today and our correspondence would appear to be a result of my comments here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1537411&postcount=21

In short, as a result of our email exchange, I am expected to call a particular person at VWoA, so they may confirm if I understand the challenge put forward to me via email, that VWoA /Audi of A copy written VW Oil Quality Standard TSBs beginning with:

17-03-01, Dated: Sept. 17, 2003

17-04-02, Dated: August, 05, 2004

17-05-05, Dated: Aug., 26, 2005

And all subsequent VW Oil Quality Standard TSBs and the letters about VW Oil Quality Standards, such as those sent to Audi 1.8T owners, like myself, are, well, irrelevant according to this contact at VWoA.

In addition, I take disagreement with the following statement, based on publicly provided VWoA/Audi of A/ VW AG documentation available since at least, 09/17/03:

“My only point with you is that I know from talking with VWoA that the approved products lists are NOT regulatory in the US and thus are not mandatory. That's all." "…… …….." "That's why the US produced oils generally aren't on a list - because they don't have to be. The Euro oils are on the list, because of the different environment there.”

While I could post copy every VW /Audi TSB that I could get my hands on I will offer the following from TSB 17-03-01:

“No other oil maybe used in this engine unless it conforms to the Volkswagen Oil Standard – 505-01.”

Who determines what meets or does not meet any VW Oil Quality Standard? Volkswagen AG.
 

mparker326

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Golf 2002 Gray
OM says must have 505.01 printed on the label. Not must look at our approved list and select an oil off of it. Look at the approved list and VW says not all approved oils may be listed. How is the user of an oil supposed to know? Where is the Castrol TXT 505.01 on the latest approved list? Am I not supposed to use it because it isn't on the list? Maybe Castrol TXT 505.01's certification expired?

We had a thread here where someone brought 506.01 to the dealer to change the oil and the dealer voided their warranty. Why? When asked they said the oil used didn't have 505.01 printed on the label.
 

40X40

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Location
Kansas City area, MO
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I'm with mparker,

All that matters is that the OIL CONTAINER states that it
meets (or exceeds) 505.01 specs.
Once you have seen that on the lable, you have done all you
are required to do in order to choose the right oil for warranty
purposes.
If you can't (legally) trust the lable on the container, how else can you
buy the right oil??

Just my opinion.

Bill
 

wjdell

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  • Direct from VW http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/buster/buster.asp?i=_content/praxis_1650.asp
  • Use of a high-grade engine oil is especially important when a vehicle is subject to a lengthy oil change interval and taking into consideration the conditions under which it is run (urban traffic, short trips, driving at full throttle). It is also advisable to change the oil earlier than stipulated when the vehicle is run under extreme conditions, such as after long trips on dusty roads or if you run a number of short trips during the cold season, when the engine seldom or never reaches its operating temperature.
  • The oil filter must also be replaced at every oil change.
  • The oil change should best be carried out by a dealership workshop. They will use an oil conforming to the manufacturers' specification and replace the dirtied oil filter. They will also be able to drain and store the used oil in the correct manner and arrange for it to be collected by an authorized disposal company.
 

SuburbanTDI

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“My only point with you is that I know from talking with VWoA that the approved products lists are NOT regulatory in the US and thus are not mandatory. That's all." "…… …….." "That's why the US produced oils generally aren't on a list - because they don't have to be. The Euro oils are on the list, because of the different environment there.”
This is not correct. VW may for warranty purposes require a product to be on a list. What is prohibited is restraint of trade through exploitation of control over the product(oil) being sold.



The Sherman Act and the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act are key here. Principally it's provisions regarding what are known as "tie-in sales". (section 102(c) of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 (15 United States Code section 2302(c)) and sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act (15 United States Code sections 1 and 2).)

Here, and this is important. It's very clear, and it's the law:

Originally "Posted" by US Supreme Court:
The essential characteristic of an invalid tying arrangement lies in the seller's exploitation of its control over the tying product to force the buyer into the purchase of a tied product that the buyer either did not want at all, or might have preferred to purchase elsewhere on different terms. When such "forcing" is present, competition on the merits in the market is restrained and the Act is violated.


You'll find the rest of the opinion in the following US Supreme Court case: Jefferson Parish Hospital District No. 2 v. Hyde, 466 U.S. 2 (1984).


Requiring component products and fluids to meet suitability standards by specifying products is NOT a violation.
 
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GoFaster

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... and one should add that oil retailers in North America are PERFECTLY FREE to market oils that conform to VW's standards. The fact that not many have chosen to do so is not VW's fault. There are enough such oils available from independent sources for this NOT to be a restraint-of-trade situation.
 

karlaudi

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mparker326 said:
OM says must have 505.01 printed on the label. Not must look at our approved list and select an oil off of it. Look at the approved list and VW says not all approved oils may be listed. How is the user of an oil supposed to know? Where is the Castrol TXT 505.01 on the latest approved list? Am I not supposed to use it because it isn't on the list? Maybe Castrol TXT 505.01's certification expired?

We had a thread here where someone brought 506.01 to the dealer to change the oil and the dealer voided their warranty. Why? When asked they said the oil used didn't have 505.01 printed on the label.

mparker326,

I think, since AndyH has provided us with at least one document outlining the VW Oil Quality Standard approval process that he would agree with this statement; that VW AG, as part of the VW Oil Quality Standard process requires the makers of oil(s) that have passed one or more VW AG Oil Quality Standards so state what VW AG Oil Quality Standard(s) their oil has met on the containers to be sold and distributed to end users.

This not the same as, say, the Yukon, Valdez & Acme Oil Refining Company listing one or more of the VW AG Oil Quality Standard numbers on their oil bottles and containers and stating they "meet or exceed” them, while at the same time they are not recognized by VW AG for meeting those standards.

Please re-review this TSB for the Castrol TXT 505.01 oil you refer too. Also note the fine print and compare it to any previous TSB and your, or any other's, VW /Audi Owner's Manual's fine print, especially when VW oA /Audi o A/ VW AG / Audi AG all speak of "…..at the time of printing …..".


http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/529/Audi_Approved_Oil_Chart.pdf
 

mparker326

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Location
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karlaudi said:
Please re-review this TSB for the Castrol TXT 505.01 oil you refer too. Also note the fine print and compare it to any previous TSB and your, or any other's, VW /Audi Owner's Manual's fine print, especially when VW oA /Audi o A/ VW AG / Audi AG all speak of "…..at the time of printing …..".


http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/529/Audi_Approved_Oil_Chart.pdf
That's the problem with lists. In this list you provided, Castrol TXT 505.01 is a 502.00 approved oil not a 505.01 approved oil. Which differs from the bottle I have from the dealer which lists 500/505/505.01 on it. So per this list, if I have a vehicle requiring 502, I can use it, but for my PD I can't?
 

karlaudi

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mparker326 said:
That's the problem with lists. In this list you provided, Castrol TXT 505.01 is a 502.00 approved oil not a 505.01 approved oil. Which differs from the bottle I have from the dealer which lists 500/505/505.01 on it. So per this list, if I have a vehicle requiring 502, I can use it, but for my PD I can't?

Castrol TXT 505.01 is also known by its VW/Audi part number on TSBs (See jombl's comments in this thread) plus is twice listed directly on this TSB and the previous one. Castrol TXT 505.01 is an obsolescent term in most Castrol markets, having been superseded by the Castrol "Edge" brand of oils.

It follows Syntec in that it is both a VW 502.00 / VW 505.00 oil as well.

Note the use of "fine print" by Castrol. Look familiar?





TXT 505 01
Synthetic lubricant for Advanced Diesel engines
________________________________________________________________________________

Applications

Castrol TXT 505 01 5W-40 is a synthetic lubricant that is specialty formulated for use in VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda and Ford vehicles fitted with VW Unit-Injector diesel engines. Castrol TXT 505 01 is also suitable for Ford Galaxy models equiped with "Init Injector" diesel engines.
This product is not suitable for vehicles operating with the VW extended service intervals system..


________________________________________________________________________________

Features / Benefits

Castrol TXT 505 01 5W-40 used proven Castrol technology to provide the following benefits:

· Suitable for VW "Unit Injector" diesel engines requiring 505 01 approved lubricants.
· Synthetic technology assures low oil consumption and protection against oxidation.
· Protects your engine from wear and deposit.
· Suitable for use in high and low operating temperatures.


________________________________________________________________________________

Specifications / Performance

VW 505 01
VW 505 00
VW 502 00
Ford WSS M2C917-A

ACEA A3/B3/B4
API SL/CF

________________________________________________________________________________

Storage

All packages should be stored under cover. Where outside storage is unavoidable drums should be laid horizontally to avoid the possible ingress of water and the obliteration of drum markings. Products should not be stored above 60°C, exposed to hot sun or freezing conditions.



________________________________________________________________________________

Health, Safety and Environment

Health, safety and environmental information is provided for this product in the Materials Safety Data Sheet. This gives details of potential hazards, precautions and First Aid measures, together with environmental effects and disposal of used products.
Castrol (UK) Ltd. or its subsidiaries will not accept liability if the product is used other than in the manner or with the precautions or for the purpose/s specified. Before the product is used other than as directed, advice should be obtained from the local Castrol office.
________________________________________________________________________________

Typical Characteristics
________________________________________________________________________________

Test MethodsUnitsValue: ________________________________________________________________________________

Relative Density at 15ºCISO 3675 / ASTM D1298g/cm30.85Viscosity at 40ºCISO 3104 / ASTM D445mm2/s85.3Viscosity at 100ºCISO 3104 / ASTM D445mm2/s14.2Viscosity IndexISO 2909 / ASTM D2270-169CCS -30ºC ASTM D5293mPa.s6110Total Base NumberASTM D2896mgKOH/g7.4Flash Point (COC)ISO 2592 / ASTM D920C252Pour Point ISO 3016 / ASTM D970C-39Sulphated AshISO 3687 / ASTM D874%m0.79
________________________________________________________________________________
The above figures are typical of those obtained with normal production tolerance and do not constitute a specification.


This Data sheet and information it contains is considered to be accurate at the date of printing. No warranty or representation, expressed or implied, is made as to the accuracy or completeness of the data and information contained in this publication.
It is the User's obligation to evaluate and use products safely and within the scope advised in the data sheet and to comply with all applicable laws and regulations. No statement made in this publication shall be construed as a permission, recommendation or authorisation given or implied to practice any patented invention without a valid licence.

The Seller shall not be responsible for any loss or damage resulting from any hazards or risks identified in the data sheet and which are associated with petroleum products concerned (provided that this disclaimer shall not affect any statutory rights of the Buyer of the petroleum products concerned).

Castrol (UK) Ltd
Wakefield House Lubricants Helpline: 01793 452222
Pipers Way Orders/Enquiries: 08459 123011
Swindon
Wiltshire
SN3 1RE

________________________________________________________________________________

Date Created: 05/04/2006 10:41:41Last Modified:17/11/2006
 
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mparker326

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karlaudi said:
Castrol TXT 505.01 is also known by its VW/Audi part number on TSBs (See jombl's comments in this thread) plus is twice listed directly on this TSB and the previous one. Castrol TXT 505.01 is an obsolescent term in most Castrol markets, having been superseded by the Castrol "Edge" brand of oils.
So you don't think it is confusing to see Castrol TXT 505.01 listed as an approved 502.00 oil and then not see it listed as an approved 505.01 oil, but then you are supposed to ignore this and know that you can also find it under its part number? Oh, but wait I'm supposed to know that it has been superseded in Europe by "Edge" brands?

Why do you think that VW puts it must have 505.01 printed on the bottle in the OM?


karlaudi said:
It follows Syntec in that it is both a VW 502.00 / VW 505.00 oil as well.
That must be the new formulation of this superseded brand of oil. So if I have a vehicle that requires 502.00 can I run the oil shown in my picture? It is on the 502.00 approved list. Would the exact oil in this bottle meet the 502.00 standard or was it reformulated? Again, why do you think VW puts <oil standard> printed on label in the owner's manual?



karlaudi said:
Note the use of "fine print" by Castrol. Look familiar?
...
This Data sheet and information it contains is considered to be accurate at the date of printing. No warranty or representation, expressed or implied, is made as to the accuracy or completeness of the data and information contained in this publication.
It is the User's obligation to evaluate and use products safely and within the scope advised in the data sheet and to comply with all applicable laws and regulations. ..
So how is a user supposed to know based on these "fine prints" that the bottle of oil they just found that has 505.01 printed on the label hasn't been accidentally left off in a typo?

Again, I prefer to rely on my Owner's Manual rather than some poorly worded list with "fine print".
 

SUNRG

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None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
FWIW - this is what the latest TXT bottles from my dealership have on the label. my guess is that it's been reformulated to meet the updated July05 50501/50200 specification. it also went from A3/B3 to A3/B4-04:



 
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TwoSlick

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Brian P.,

Since we are both experienced engineers, perhaps you can tell me how ANY oil company is supposed to formulate a VW 505.01 or VW 502.00 oil if the specific engine test requirements aren't clearly defined in writing by the engine manufacturer??? This idea of a hit or miss approach to oil formulation makes NO technical sense at all to me.

It may be that the VW Engine Sequence tests aren't available on a public forum like the 'Net, but certainly major additive companies like Lubrizol and Infineum are aware of what they are, or they could never formulate an additive chemistry to meet them.

From what I've seen, the ONLY reason why VW requires that you sent them some oil is to run duplicate bench tests and perhaps a chemical profile using spectrographic analysis. They document this info and keep it on file in case any questions come up about using a specific oil in one of their engines. This way they can tell if the formulation has been changed by the blender without submitting it for further testing and re-certification. However the dollar amounts I've seen kicked around on this forum are way too low to involve any sort in full up engine sequence testing by VW over in Germany. I'd bet a complete VW/TDI engine test is probably on the order of $30,000.00-$50,000.00. That documented testing is done before the oil is ever submitted to VW/Audi to get on the approved list.

TS
 

AndyH

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Sooch said:
Some folks still clearly have a problem understanding the transitive property. If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

See the next to last paragraph on the second page of DD's pdf file, under "Need More Information" for reference to a "list".

Engine oil = VW 50X.XX, Oils/manufacturers that meet VW 50X.XX = On the list, Engine oil = On the list.
---------A=B----------,----------------------------------------B=C----------,therefore A=C.
With respect, Sooch, shall we assume that you're also suggesting that because some soup comes in cans, that if you want soup, and see a can of spaghetti sauce, that it must actually contain soup?

While the 'if a' structure is correct, it creates a bad result if one starts with a bad initial assumption.

My point, derived initially from analyzing the documents, and confirmed in multiple conversations with the guy in charge of fluid selection for US warranty, is that the list of approved oils is absolutely a list of approved oils, but is not the entire list of oils suitable for use for US warranty. The approved products list is a SUBSET of available products.

The point of this thread is to see if anyone can disprove that point - not get into another endless and circular discussion of their personal view of 'reality'.
 

AndyH

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jombl said:
I'll just point you to the FAQ found at Fred's TDI Club for starters.
The FAQ 1. needs to be updated and 2. was not created by or edited by anyone from VWoA.

jombl said:
I know if it were me I'd find it difficult to discuss the subject with a man who makes reference to one letter - that he himself has recieved but cannot make public -- A letter which is said to allow anyone to use absolutely any oil from anywhere if someone has simply printed 505.01 on the label.
Fair enough.

You'll gladly accept the letters posted by people that don't respect the wishes of the author, but nuke those that do?

I'm quite convinced that you'd not agree regardless of what I post, regardless of the source. The phone number and name of the person at VWoA is available to anyone that would rather get off their tuckus and contribute, instead of being a professional naysayer. Of course, I mean this is the nicest sort of way.

But this is another departure from the point of the thread.
 

AndyH

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karlaudi said:
While I could post copy every VW /Audi TSB that I could get my hands on I will offer the following from TSB 17-03-01:

“No other oil maybe used in this engine unless it conforms to the Volkswagen Oil Standard – 505-01.”

Who determines what meets or does not meet any VW Oil Quality Standard? Volkswagen AG.
Excellent as far as it goes. From any VWoA source - what does 'conform' mean, in the context of a VWAG oil specification?
 

AndyH

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jombl said:
Quote [AndyH]:
“My only point with you is that I know from talking with VWoA that the approved products lists are NOT regulatory in the US and thus are not mandatory. That's all." "…… …….." "That's why the US produced oils generally aren't on a list - because they don't have to be. The Euro oils are on the list, because of the different environment there.”

This is not correct. VW may for warranty purposes require a product to be on a list. What is prohibited is restraint of trade through exploitation of control over the product(oil) being sold.
Mag-Moss isn't relevant here. It gives guidelines for written warranties should a written warranty be provided. It doesn't tell VWoA how it must run its warranty program.

You say my point isn't correct - but where's your proof? The first post requests documentation.

My statement is derived from both reading legal VW documentation (manuals, warranty statements) and via voice and email discussions with VWoA. I will provide this info to anyone that asks.
 
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AndyH

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nortones2 said:
See http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/ Paragraph dealing with oil quality. The key phrase is "approved for use in your vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer."
No trouble here at all. I'd like to know, from the source, exactly what VWoA considers 'approved for use'. I limit it to VWoA for the US market because the warranty booklet for my '97 says on page 5: "This warranty is issued by Volkswagen of America, Inc., (VWoA). This warranty does not apply to Volkswagen vehicles or parts and accessories not imported or distributed by VWoA."

Some might suggest this is proof that Castrol TXT or the VW oil imported and provided by the dealer network is the only approved product for warranty, but oil is clearly not covered by warranty.

Page 6: "The Limited Powertrain Warranty covers any repair to correct a defect in material or workmanship for the following parts and components:

Engine: cylinder block and all internal parts, cylinder head and all internal parts, valve train, spur belt, flywheel, oil pump, water pump, manifolds, all related seals and gaskets.
Transmission: case and all internal parts, torque converter, all related seals and gaskets.
Drivetrain: differential and all internal parts, driveshafts and constand velocity (CV) joints.
 
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AndyH

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GoFaster said:
... and one should add that oil retailers in North America are PERFECTLY FREE to market oils that conform to VW's standards. The fact that not many have chosen to do so is not VW's fault. There are enough such oils available from independent sources for this NOT to be a restraint-of-trade situation.
The real question is exactly what does a manufacturer have to do to 'conform' to standards? Some say it has to be on the list. And I agree that the list is a list of approved oils. But the list isn't necessarily a list of ALL approved oils, and isn't necessarily a list of all 'conforming' products.

VWoA says the oil used is not limited to the list.
 
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nortones2

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Its what the OEM says is approved, which is listed and communicated to dealers. VAG and VWoA are the same entity: therefore what VAG says, goes.
 

AndyH

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nortones2 said:
Its what the OEM says is approved, which is listed and communicated to dealers. VAG and VWoA are the same entity: therefore what VAG says, goes.
Nothing personal my friend. VWoA seems to think otherwise. Please understand that the guy I spoke with came to VWoA from VWAG - he knows both sides.
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
I doubt this will ever be settled as that would take a offical document from VW which will never happen, unless we could force their hand. I have read everything I can find and in most cases its clear and states, "must conform to", "strictly conforms" , "meets specifacation". These statements support the one camp that says it must be on the container. There are however some docs that use the word "APPROVED". This gives the impression that it must appear on certain documentation. But I do not believe that is so as when the word, "APPROVED" is used its usually the illustrator addresssing a cutomer who is in question. "IF IN DOUBT CONTACT YOUR LOCAL VW AUTHORIZED DEALER", or look at the approved list. No place in my manual does it say I should seek out a list. Must conform to, and the manual is specific that the oil must conform to 505.01. If there is a change in this manual its VW's responsibility to send a addendum. This in the case were manuals say 505.00. My manual does not call for DSG changes. Many dealers are still unclear on this.

By force their hand I mean draft a letter that addresses the question in a way which its not possible to answer, and dodge, black or white yes or no. I usually when confornted in this situation has been prior to legation and to save money I usually draft the letter and then have a firm correct and use their heading, they sign it and I can usually keep it under a 100. We may get a good response, and a better response if someone was to petition them for a clarifaction, lots of VW owners.
 

Sooch

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Location
Des Moines, IA
TDI
2005 Golf
AndyH said:
With respect, Sooch, shall we assume that you're also suggesting that because some soup comes in cans, that if you want soup, and see a can of spaghetti sauce, that it must actually contain soup?

While the 'if a' structure is correct, it creates a bad result if one starts with a bad initial assumption.

My point, derived initially from analyzing the documents, and confirmed in multiple conversations with the guy in charge of fluid selection for US warranty, is that the list of approved oils is absolutely a list of approved oils, but is not the entire list of oils suitable for use for US warranty. The approved products list is a SUBSET of available products.

The point of this thread is to see if anyone can disprove that point - not get into another endless and circular discussion of their personal view of 'reality'.
With no due respect Andy,

Another circular discussion is EXACTLY what you asked for and wanted here, just as you always do. You wish to turn this into an Amsoil house, and it upsets you that you are failing to increase your market share by an appreciable margin. Your mostly useless, verbose blather of Amsoil vs. all others pollutes this forum on an all too regular basis. Amsoil is what it is. Great oil, not certified. Get over it.

Unless you are also a lawyer, please stop giving legal advice on what is or is not suitable for US warranty. If you are not an attorney, you should watch your ass, because plenty of your misinformation on what is or is not legal in the US could be used against you.

The only poor assumption was yours, way back when you surmised that the 505.01 spec was a myth and unnecessary. Your soup analogy is also a poor one. As with any property, one must use a bit of common sense. If common sense and reality escape you, i'm afraid that I can do nothing to assist you.

Your point in starting this thread, like 10's of others, is to try to convince folks that just because Amsoil won't step up with the big boys and get certified, that it doesn't matter anyway. You consistently post or reply in rediculously verbose fashion, to cloud the facts. That is the sign of a snake oil salesman.

Again, to promote YOUR personal view of reality to agitate yet ANOTHER circular discussion, is just what you as an Amsoil salesman wanted. Don't insult us by implying that you really wanted to "figure something out".

That is all I will say, because any time conversing with you is, in my opinion, wasted time. I've wasted too much time with this reply already.
 
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