507.00 Already Recognized by VWoA for TDIs

[AndyH]

There's been some traffic lately pushing for the right to use 506.01 in PD TDIs and still have warranty coverage. If you're on the fence about 505.01, 506.01, and possibly 507.00, you might enjoy this.

The driving environment in Europe is different from the US. Cars, fuel, drivers, weather, ECU programming, injectors, etc. are often quite different. This means that the lube needs of the cars are often different.

We know that 505.01 is the law of the land for the US market. We know that 506.01 and 507.00 are alive and well in Europe, but still not officially recognized for use in the US market...or are they? Camera photo exhibit A:

I took this crappy photo of the underhood sticker of a US spec. 2006 V10 TDI Touareg at the Rod East VW dealership in San Antonio this afternoon. It can be a challenge to read, so let me help: "Failure to use engine oil for your engine that expressly conforms to Volkswagen Oil Standard 505.01 or 507.00 can..." WAIT! 507.00?!

Why 507.00 and not 506.01? A couple of reasons. First of all, the US dealer network (which are not owned by VWoA - they're independent franchises) is having trouble getting on-line with 505.01. Why would VWoA want to bring on another limited-applicability product that will almost immediately be superseded? WHAT?! Yup. The 2007 emissions laws are requiring diesel particulate filters and advanced catalytic converters for new diesels. This means that low-ash oils that meet ACEA Cx and VW 507.00 are going to be required in the US. 507.00 replaces both 505.01 and 506.01. Therefore - there is no reason for VWoA to get on board with 506.01 when they're going to be forced to bring 507.00 into the dealerships when the 2008 TDIs land.

And from the looks of the sticker on the 2006 Touareg - which requires 506.01 in Europe - VWoA is already on-track with transitioning to 507.00.

Generation jumping is common for folks that get to learn from someone elses experience. In the US, we went from pony express (critters) to telegraph to telephones (copper) to wireless. Parts of the Far East that are just starting to modernize have been able to skip telegraph and copper wires and jump right to cell phone towers. They don't have to waste the same amount of time it took the US to move thru the intermediate steps.

Same thing for the US and TDI oil specs we don't have to take the intermediate 506.01 step - we can go directly to 507.00 and use the latest and greatest.

Sometimes stepping back helps us see...

 

[wjdell]

This is what I figured - that VW needed the 506.01 to meet a immediate spec of mileage and could not wait till 507 additive package was ready in Europe. As far as some thinking 507 is inferior to 506.01, I believe in fact its better. 11 USD per liter is not cheap oil. I used the term stop gap about 506.01 and maybe that was wrong maybe not. I am anxious to see what the other oil makers do concerning the 507 spec.

 

[tditom]

Andy, I hope you don't mind me bringing the discussion from the other thread over here.

Among the differences you list between N. America and Europe, I don't see how the drivers or weather would make any significant difference, as our climate over here is very similar to there, and the differences between driving across Europe is negligible. I doubt that ever affected the lube designs for the cars sold there or here. ECU programming and injectors may have been different with previous generation diesels, but with the arrival of 15ppm ULSD, vs. 40 ppm (?) used in Europe, what technological differences would exist between US and Euro vehicles that would necessitate different lubes? I can see if the nozzles have different orifices (orifi ?) with hight sulphur fuels in the past, but there is no evidence that lube specs were different for this reason. Are you certain of a design difference with the Euro and ex-Euro versions of the V10?

This document referes to both 507.00 and 506.01 oils, and vehicles with or without the DPF that will be installed on future VW's sold over here. So if 507 supercedes 506.01 in every case, it would sure seem that the document would make that clear. But on the contrary, it states that the V10 (and its sibling R5 motor) require the 506.01 with either 10K mile or Long-Life OCI.

With the points I made above, I do not think that the requirement can be explained away as you have attempted to do. I think the V10 & R5, with their different valve drive mechanism (gear drive vs. timing belt), require a more robust lubricant. That is why they need the 506.01 and can't use the 507.00.

 

[Logismoi]

it sure does

i just came in and read this post and then immediately went back out to pop the hood of my 2007 V10, and sure enough it says
505 01 or 507 00

This document referes to both 507.00 and 506.01 oils, and vehicles with or without the DPF that will be installed on future VW's sold over here. So if 507 supercedes 506.01 in every case, it would sure seem that the document would make that clear. But on the contrary, it states that the V10 (and its sibling R5 motor) require the 506.01 with either 10K mile or Long-Life OCI.

How old is this document ?

 

[tditom]

...
How old is this document ?

I don't know and I don't know why it matters. It is after the 507 spec came out, and even though the 507 is supposed to meet/supercede the 506.01 requirements, the vehicles with gear driven camshafts are directed to use 506.01. Unless the 507 spec has changed since that document was released, I would assume that your v10 needs 506.01. Hopefully SUNRG will have something to add to this.

 

[AndyH]

Andy, I hope you don't mind me bringing the discussion from the other thread over here.

Among the differences you list between N. America and Europe, I don't see how the drivers or weather would make any significant difference, as our climate over here is very similar to there, and the differences between driving across Europe is negligible. I doubt that ever affected the lube designs for the cars sold there or here. ECU programming and injectors may have been different with previous generation diesels, but with the arrival of 15ppm ULSD, vs. 40 ppm (?) used in Europe, what technological differences would exist between US and Euro vehicles that would necessitate different lubes? I can see if the nozzles have different orifices (orifi ?) with hight sulphur fuels in the past, but there is no evidence that lube specs were different for this reason. Are you certain of a design difference with the Euro and ex-Euro versions of the V10?

This document referes to both 507.00 and 506.01 oils, and vehicles with or without the DPF that will be installed on future VW's sold over here. So if 507 supercedes 506.01 in every case, it would sure seem that the document would make that clear. But on the contrary, it states that the V10 (and its sibling R5 motor) require the 506.01 with either 10K mile or Long-Life OCI.

With the points I made above, I do not think that the requirement can be explained away as you have attempted to do. I think the V10 & R5, with their different valve drive mechanism (gear drive vs. timing belt), require a more robust lubricant. That is why they need the 506.01 and can't use the 507.00.

Lube specs absolutely are affected by fuel, injection equipment, expected use of the equipment, cultural influences, and many other factors. People in Europe get together drinking different coffee and tea, brewed to different strengths than the US, munching on biscuits that are significantly different from cookies, to decide which of the ACEA and ASTM requirements should be selected to craft an oil spec for a specific type of engine in an specific environment. Hopefully it's no surprise that our needs and expectations - and our allowable tradeoffs - might be different.

What is the source of that document? To what drivers does it apply? Who's warranty hangs on what's printed there?

But that isn't the point of this thread or the recent threads about US warranty with regards to 505.01 506.01 and 507.00. These threads are about the policies of the branch of VW that is responsible for our corner of the world.

As far as I'm concerned, there can be NO technical discussion on the pros and cons of 505.01, 506.01, or 507.00 until we get a look at the specification documents and talk with the folks that designed the specs.

 

[AndyH]

I don't know and I don't know why it matters. It is after the 507 spec came out, and even though the 507 is supposed to meet/supercede the 506.01 requirements, the vehicles with gear driven camshafts are directed to use 506.01. Unless the 507 spec has changed since that document was released, I would assume that your v10 needs 506.01. Hopefully SUNRG will have something to add to this.

Tom - this is the selective followership that I referred to earlier. This oil selection requirement is on the cars in the country of their intended operation - and VWoA is legally bound by them. How is it that you or Rob or anyone else here can decide that the recommendation of 505.01 or 507.00 is not ok, but the letter from the same organization about 506.01 is ok? We are free to assume what we will - but we're not funding VWoA's warranty account, are we?

 

[tditom]

Lube specs absolutely are affected by fuel, injection equipment, expected use of the equipment, cultural influences, and many other factors...
If this is true, then why did the PD engines with power outputs that varied so drastically from the PD's over here have the exact same 505.01 spec (upgraded to 506.01)?
What is the source of that document?
VAG
To what drivers does it apply?
I think the question is to what vehicles does it apply.
Who's warranty hangs on what's printed there?
Well, given that we've gotten those enlightening letters from VWoA this week that MAKE SENSE when compared to said document, I would say all vehicles. Are you concerned that a V10 using 506.01 and adhering to the manufacturer's recommended OCI's will actually be faced with a lube related warranty, Andy? Like I said before, I would have as much confidence in using this spec oil as I would using an Amsoil product.

But that isn't the point of this thread or the recent threads about US warranty with regards to 505.01 506.01 and 507.00. These threads are about the policies of the branch of VW that is responsible for our corner of the world.
I only disagree so far as the V10 tdi motor goes. I agree that what Rob received certainly gives the VWoA greenlight to 506.01 and 507 to the 4 cyl PD's in N America.

As far as I'm concerned, there can be NO technical discussion on the pros and cons of 505.01, 506.01, or 507.00 until we get a look at the specification documents and talk with the folks that designed the specs.

OK, I'll wait on the spec documents to be revealed. Until then, I'll advise folks to take heed to VAG directives, since that is the entity that designed ALL these tdi's. If VWoA agrees, then that's gravy. If a warranty dispute arises from a V10 owner having a lube failure while using 506.01, I would advise that person to pursue the matter with VWoA, using the correspondance available on this forum, and the VWoA names provided here.

 

[DesertV10]

I have a V10 with that sticker under the hood specifying 505 01 or 507 00 and the owner's manual that speficies 505 01. We also have the letter that OKs 506 01, so I have to assume in the USA that all three are approved for our fixed oil change schedule.

 

[tditom]

Tom - this is the selective followership that I referred to earlier. This oil selection requirement is on the cars in the country of their intended operation - and VWoA is legally bound by them. How is it that you or Rob or anyone else here can decide that the recommendation of 505.01 or 507.00 is not ok, but the letter from the same organization about 506.01 is ok? We are free to assume what we will - but we're not funding VWoA's warranty account, are we?

Andy- please answer the questions I posed in post #8 regarding 505.01 being the sole spec for all PD's- no matter what the power output.

Please reply to my concerns that the V10 needs a special lube to protect the gears used to drive the camshaft.

That is my only concern- that some poor Touareg owner (now that is quite an oxymoron) will heed a mislabeling by VWoA (there is a precedent for this, right?) and their mega-tdi will suffer for it.

I think Rob can tell us the diff between 506.01 and 507.00 in regards to engine protection, if you don't want to...

 

[tditom]

a little technical info for the discussion....

here is an excerpt from the article that Logismoi dug up:

There are no belts or chains on this engine. All of the pumps, accessories and camshafts are driven through a gear train that's bolted as a complete assembly to the fly-wheel end of the block. Except for the crank and cam gears and the power steering pump gear, all the gears are sandwiched between two cast-iron carrier plates, and the plates have external pipes and internal oil passages to pressure-lube the gear shafts' bearings.
One of these gears drives one half of a coupling called a Gates Drive, which couples to the water-cooled alternator nestled in the V between the cylinder heads. The gear-driven power steering pump is mounted directly to the block, and the pump's own driveshaft extends out the back of the pump to another coupling that drives the air conditioning (A/C) compressor. Another gear just below the V drives a long shaft that extends all the way through the block and turns the water pump. Below the crankshaft gear is the drive gear for the balance shaft and oil pumps.
When using gears to drive camshafts, gear tooth contact depth must remain constant to avoid noise and wear and changes in valve timing. When all the gears are mounted on the same casting, this is a minor issue. But in an overhead cam engine, the camshafts move away from the crankshaft as the engine grows with temperature. It's only a few thousandths, but it's enough to influence cam timing.
Volkswagen has devised a cam drive system with four gears: the crankshaft gear, a reduction gear, an idler gear and finally, the camshaft gear. What's unique about this train is that the idler rides in a carrier called a shackle that is hinged in the center like a pocketknife. The shackle attaches to the head at one end and to the block at the other, and the idler gear rides with the hinge.
When cold, the shackle is compressed so the idler is offset to one side. When the engine warms up, the shackle is pulled apart and the idler moves closer to the centerline of the three gears, keeping gear contact depth constant. The movement is only a few thousandths of an inch, but it's enough to maintain exact cam timing. Because the camshafts also operate the injectors, even a half-degree of cam timing change would have a big effect.

Could this design require a little extra in terms of HT/HS? Is the difference in HT/HS between 506.01 & 507 the reason for the V10 requirement for 506.01 ONLY (at least in the VAG doc)?

 

[AndyH]

Clutching at Straws...

Sorry, Guys... From what I know of oil, the tiny difference in HTHS between 506.0x and 507 doesn't have much to do with much. Oil is too complex to simply take one piece and say something like gears=<hths belt=>hths

Besides... Gears are harder on oil shear. Look at the the Toyota gear driven DOHC engines that are absolute sludge monsters. They kill M1 after a few thousand miles and petroleum turns to gell out of absolute terror.

If the T'reg gears are the deciding factor, then the oil would need as high an HTHS rating as possible to stay alive. According to Rob, 506.01 has a HTHS limit...Afton Chemical says 506.00 has a limit but 506.01 has none. I don't have a chart for 507.00 so can't say one way or another which would be better from that aspect.

 

[tditom]

Thanks for the clarification on the HT/HS specs, Andy. I wasn't sure which way provided more protection. In the excerpt above I was trying to show some of the significant differences between the V10/R5 design and the other PD's.

Why do you think the VAG document calls for use of only 506.01 on these motors?

 

[wjdell]

maybe as simple as thats what they were tested with - Frankly

 

[AndyH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyH
Lube specs absolutely are affected by fuel, injection equipment, expected use of the equipment, cultural influences, and many other factors...
If this is true, then why did the PD engines with power outputs that varied so drastically from the PD's over here have the exact same 505.01 spec (upgraded to 506.01)?

Give us a timeline of when the Euro decisions were made and when they switched from 505.01 to 506.01 there? What changed in the Euro environment or warranty program that forced the change? Please include when in time 507.00 joined the fray.

What is the source of that document?
VAG

Are you sure?

VAG doesn't control the US warranty, do they? Stay with us here - this is warranty not tech. We don't have tech info!

To what drivers does it apply?
I think the question is to what vehicles does it apply.

Whatever. It doesn't apply to the US market.

Who's warranty hangs on what's printed there?
Well, given that we've gotten those enlightening letters from VWoA this week that MAKE SENSE when compared to said document, I would say all vehicles. Are you concerned that a V10 using 506.01 and adhering to the manufacturer's recommended OCI's will actually be faced with a lube related warranty, Andy? Like I said before, I would have as much confidence in using this spec oil as I would using an Amsoil product.

You're asking tech - I'm talking about politics/warranty/corporate decisions. We're not in the same discussion. Send your questions to VWoA -- they should have the reasons why the 505.01/507.00 stickers are on the US T'reg - I didn't design the stickers or apply them to the cars.

But that isn't the point of this thread or the recent threads about US warranty with regards to 505.01 506.01 and 507.00. These threads are about the policies of the branch of VW that is responsible for our corner of the world.
I only disagree so far as the V10 tdi motor goes. I agree that what Rob received certainly gives the VWoA greenlight to 506.01 and 507 to the 4 cyl PD's in N America.

I still recommend you get your own letter from VWoA.

As far as I'm concerned, there can be NO technical discussion on the pros and cons of 505.01, 506.01, or 507.00 until we get a look at the specification documents and talk with the folks that designed the specs.

OK, I'll wait on the spec documents to be revealed. Until then, I'll advise folks to take heed to VAG directives, since that is the entity that designed ALL these tdi's. If VWoA agrees, then that's gravy. If a warranty dispute arises from a V10 owner having a lube failure while using 506.01, I would advise that person to pursue the matter with VWoA, using the correspondance available on this forum, and the VWoA names provided here.

Your choice. With respect - which of us is in a position to advise anyone of anything concerning VWoA's warranty and requirements? VAG isn't in charge of the US warranty program. From a US warranty standpoint, I think that anyone that favors VWAG-sourced data over VWoA data has made a very poor choice.

 

[wjdell]

Thats interesting Andy - VAG vs VWoA - I never thought of that.

 

[AndyH]

That is my only concern- that some poor Touareg owner (now that is quite an oxymoron)

Ain't THAT the truth! The 2006 that I saw this afternoon had a sticker price of a sedate $69K and change...

 

[nortones2]

Has VWoA the resources to make a data-based decision? Judging by the standard of the letters re 506.01/Touareg, it seems they are mainly BS oriented....

 

[tditom]

Give us a timeline of when the Euro decisions were made and when they switched from 505.01 to 506.01 there? What changed in the Euro environment or warranty program that forced the change? Please include when in time 507.00 joined the fray.

They didn't "switch" to 506.01 from 505.01. As you already know, the 506.01 was developed to work with the flexible service sensor option and to increase OCI up to 31K mi. In order to meet this demand, the oil must make it thru a tortuous testing process. Dieseldorf and nortones2 have posted the Castrol document on the process a number of times, remember? So the both of those specs are current depending on the service program the vehicle is using.

I'm not sure exactly when 507 was brought in to the picture, but it was in response to the DPF.

Are you sure?

yes, I'm quite confident the doc is from VAG. I didn't know you doubted this. Do you think it is from a bogus source? DD has also posted a doc from Fuchs that shows the "unification" of the gasser and oil specs and also states that the V10/R5 are to use 506.01 only. I haven't looked for more docs.

VAG doesn't control the US warranty, do they? Stay with us here - this is warranty not tech. We don't have tech info!

Whatever. It doesn't apply to the US market.

Again, the point is that VWoA's mandate differs from the VAG guidance. With the track record of VWoA's manual printing fiasco on the 505.01 oil, and the slow response to rectify this error, I think folks would be well advised to proceed on the side of caution when VWoA differs from VAG documents.

Your choice. With respect - which of us is in a position to advise anyone of anything concerning VWoA's warranty and requirements? VAG isn't in charge of the US warranty program...

Well, since this is an internet forum, and we don't all need to be oil professionals to post advice/opinions, I thought we were open to use our common sense, and through the process of dialogue, we all learn. I'm still trying to learn here, Andy. What I don't understand right now is why we have 2 documents that dictate that the V10 needs 506.01. Are both these sources wrong and VWoA right? It could be possible, I guess...

...From a US warranty standpoint, I think that anyone that favors VWAG-sourced data over VWoA data has made a very poor choice.

Does VWoA collect data that is relevant to lube specs? Do they have engineering resources to analyze that data and make oil recommendations? I am highly doubtful that this is the case.

 

[nortones2]

VWoA is a wholly owned subsidiary of VWAG, IIRC, but it seems to be run on a different basis.

 

[dieseldorf]

Are underhood lables affixed at the port of entry (USA) or at the factory?

 

[DesertV10]

I wonder what the factory fill oil is? That first 5000 miles before the first change would probably be very demanding on the engine and oil.

 

[tditom]

Desert- I think the best guess from most folks here is that the factory fill on ALL tdi's is 506.01. It has been discussed before several times.

 

[DesertV10]

That sounds logical, except for that sticker under the hood. Maybe they have gone to 507 00. I was hoping that someone over there might know from a factory visit or supplier contact.

 

[dieseldorf]

it's not 506.01, but it is very similar spec-wise:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1462424&postcount=8

 

[Logismoi]

Are underhood lables affixed at the port of entry (USA) or at the factory?

THAT! is a VERY good question!

 

[dieseldorf]

....and if the answer is: Attached at VPC....well, then you know the rest of the story.



Either the label is attached in error and doesn't apply to V10s, or the spec has been changed/updated as it is contrary to this letter and other documentation from VAG.

 

[DesertV10]

The label is not totally inconsistent with the Fuchs memo, both call for 507 00. The labels' mention of 505 01, which is also specified in the owner's manual, maybe because that is what is available and being used by the dealers. I have never seen a 507 00 labeled oil but I'm sure we will eventually.

 

[tditom]

The label is not totally inconsistent with the Fuchs memo, both call for 507 00...

Per the "exception to the rule" section of the memo, the label certainly is in disagreement.

 

[dieseldorf]

...both call for 507 00.

No it doesn't -- please read the "Exceptions" comment.