$5 FIX mk5 EGR cooler diverter leak (hissing)

MPG MASTERS 1

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It doesn't regulate EGR flow, it regulates if the EGR goes through the cooler or bypasses it. The EGR valve itself is what regulates the actual flow.
=Okay, that makes sense, so when it is cool it bypasses to warm engine up quicker.

I have not traced the vacuum line back yet but I believe it must comes from the Turbo vane actuator, that is the only device I see that has a vacuum hose going to it from the N75 valve and the feed from the N75 comes from the valve cover and has no other vacuum hoses in sight. 05.5 Jetta BRM
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The BRM has a cluster of vacuum hoses all scrunched behind the valve cover, near the breather heater. The EGR cooler vacuum switching valve is down under all that.
 

V-Rod

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It doesn't regulate EGR flow, it regulates if the EGR goes through the cooler or bypasses it. The EGR valve itself is what regulates the actual flow.
So is that why sometimes the egr cooler Leaks and sometimes it doesn't ?? When egr gas bypasses, it hisses but when it goes threw the cooler it doesn't ?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
It is ALWAYS going through the cooler, so long as the EGR valve is open. It is just a question of if it is going through the internal bypass of the cooler, or the cooled passage. If you cut one open, you'll see what I mean. Lots of people over think this.

The "hiss" changes more based on EGR demand, not actual cooler demand, and is also linked to turbo position, since the EGR passage out of the exhaust manifold is, like all TDIs with this type of EGR, before the turbine wheel. So when high boost is demanded, there will be high(er) pressure in the exhaust manifold (rule of thumb is 150% of intake pressure, that's why EGRs work even on turbodiesels).

While I am quick to diagnose a leaky EGR cooler on a BRM because I've probably heard 1000 bad ones, the easy way to tell is by letting the engine idle for a minute. While the engine is at idle, the EGR is open, flowing, and there is low boost. ECU is toggling the throttle valve and EGR valve based on MAF values to keep the EGR under control. The hissing will be minimal at this point. After a couple minutes of idle time, the EGR shuts (ECU sees engine cooling down, low(er) NOx output, no need for EGR... this is a typical EGR strategy for diesels). When this happens, the exhaust pressure is now higher... because the "relief valve" pre turbine wheel in the exhaust has just shut. So the hiss will increase in noise. Keep in mind, the engine has been at a rock steady idle RPM the whole time. Blip the accelerator, EGR opens again, hiss dies back down.
 
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MPG MASTERS 1

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Breather Heater?

The BRM has a cluster of vacuum hoses all scrunched behind the valve cover, near the breather heater. The EGR cooler vacuum switching valve is down under all that.
=You mean their are more vacuum lines coming from the valve cover lower that the one in the rear? I will loof seeper. The engine does go through a deeper throughtier sound if I let the vacuum line suck free air but when I put my fingure over the open line it is deffinetly a louder sound. Never heard any hissing but I tried the zip tie mod and deffinetly getting better responce but think I snitched it up a little to much. Have 103,000 miles and some shops say I need a new turbo. How they make that claim is still unknown to me. Thanks for your great explinations.
 

oilhammer

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Well, if they know the BRM, they know the issue with the worn turbo stop/vanes that those BW units are famous for. Some are worse than others, and some get so bad that I don't see how people can drive them in any sort of traffic.

There is a vacuum diagram under the hood. There are only two items on the BRM that use vacuum besides the brake booster: the turbocharger and the cooler flap. They have no dual-path intake, and the EGR and throttle are both electric. So it is a pretty simple system. Volkswagen just made the placement of some of the items kind of awkward.
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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Well, if they know the BRM, they know the issue with the worn turbo stop/vanes that those BW units are famous for. Some are worse than others, and some get so bad that I don't see how people can drive them in any sort of traffic.
There is a vacuum diagram under the hood. There are only two items on the BRM that use vacuum besides the brake booster: the turbocharger and the cooler flap. They have no dual-path intake, and the EGR and throttle are both electric. So it is a pretty simple system. Volkswagen just made the placement of some of the items kind of awkward.
=I have heard alot about the cam issue but not the turbo / vane issue. I quess without taking it off and apart it is hard to confirm the damaged parts. I get good power but my mpg seems lower when I start from a stop. Meaning I use to see mpg in the high teens to mid 20's but now it shows in the single digits. Normal start not heavy foot. The tie wrap trick helps. N75 shows 28-29" vacuum entering and at idle 18-19" going to the turbo. Heavy acceleation it shows about 5" so it seems to be working okay.

Their is some exhaust gasses coming out of the turbo vane rod that enters the casting that moves the vane ring but I would think that would be normal since their is no seal for that shaft. The mechanic said because of that exhaust leak, he can not reset the turbo full open stop.
Again, thanks for your input and will now look for that other vacuum line. lol
 

oilhammer

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Your zip tie is proof that your turbo is worn. It's a band-aid fix, but it can work for a good long time, especially if you drive mostly highway and the opportunity for the nasty hesitations don't exist.
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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Your zip tie is proof that your turbo is worn. It's a band-aid fix, but it can work for a good long time, especially if you drive mostly highway and the opportunity for the nasty hesitations don't exist.
=I tried several zip ties, one adjusted 4 clicks, then 8 clicks and the last one at 12 clicks. I am sure the 12 clicks is keeping the vanes from going to a normal greated open position. The throttleis more sensitive and I have not gotten any codes for overboost even at high acceleation and high speeds.

If the BRM turbo only lasts 75-100,000 miles, I might as well order one and pull the intake manifold for cleaning and maybe extruded honing at the same time.

Strange, I bought the VW new and always took care of it for 9 years and at 100,000 the Turbo, EGR valve, EGR cooler, Flap motor set off a code, A/C compressor is failing and the cam has never been inspected nor showing sighns of wear but that will probably show up soon. Love the car but should have replaced it at 80,000 for a new one.
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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I'm over 200k with original turbo;)
=My car has always been reliable and I am not saying the Turbo is trashed, just that they said the VAG said it was requesting 80% and it was actually at 103% due to the leaky egr cooler flap. Once that was replaced they said it came closer but the exhaust leak now at the turbo where the vane control rod goes through the casting was too much Never heard of that one nor has any rebuilding turbo shop so not sure whats going on.

Then I did the zip tie and still playing with that one but it does seem to have better lower end throttle responce.

I washed the engine bay area and am now going to see if the soot returns to the white paint. The egr cooler leak had soot going everywhere.

I hate to buy a turbo if this one is still good but the vane rigs may be worn out of adjustment. Can't really tell without a tear down.
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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Zip tie

Well, some of these turbos last 1/4 million miles or more, some start acting up by 100k miles. We see this to be more common as the BRM cars age.
= I put a vac gage on my actuator and it seems to start moving around 5" and continues to about 18" and hits the stop.
The zip tie seemed to help. Tha Vag said the rod was at 103% and the request was saying 80% so it seems either the rod was out of adjustment.
I wonder if we move the stop up several turnes it would stop the rod at 80% but then was thinking of moving the vane adjustment up 1/4" to see if the responce was better. Opening the vanes a little less should give you more boost maybe. What do you think?
Beside replacing the entire turbo that is not leaking exhaust out of the through rod to the vanes, I though I would play with it a little.

Thanks for the EGR cooler bypass info. If I knew that I would have ripped the flapper valve out and then welded (heliark) the entire leaking poorly designed hole shut for good. I am in Fl and don't need the pre-heat and it would have saved me several hundred bucks. Any one want my old one to weld up and try? lol.

With the zip tie my MPG have returned to a higher number but I wonder how my cam is doing. I hear that can destroy MPG as well. Mine is running smooth but I quess only a good visual inspection is the only sure way of knowing and look at the lifters at the same time. Any other known symtoms of a failing cam?
Thanks,
Rik
 

SuperJ

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Are you trying to match your N75 duty cycle to actuator position? I don't think that's possible. Your vacuum readings sound spot on for open and close (if you were hitting full close stop (high N75 duty cycle) at less than 18" then it would seem like you should shorten the shaft. If you run the boost control output test (the one that holds the rpm at 1400 and opens and closes the vanes), I think it recalibrates the actuator feedback. You should always run it once more after the adjustment (tie wrap, is done) to ensure calibration is accurate.
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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Are you trying to match your N75 duty cycle to actuator position? I don't think that's possible. Your vacuum readings sound spot on for open and close (if you were hitting full close stop (high N75 duty cycle) at less than 18" then it would seem like you should shorten the shaft. If you run the boost control output test (the one that holds the rpm at 1400 and opens and closes the vanes), I think it recalibrates the actuator feedback. You should always run it once more after the adjustment (tie wrap, is done) to ensure calibration is accurate.
=
Are you trying to match your N75 duty cycle to actuator position? I don't think that's possible. Your vacuum readings sound spot on for open and close (if you were hitting full close stop (high N75 duty cycle) at less than 18" then it would seem like you should shorten the shaft. If you run the boost control output test (the one that holds the rpm at 1400 and opens and closes the vanes), I think it recalibrates the actuator feedback. You should always run it once more after the adjustment (tie wrap, is done) to ensure calibration is accurate.
=Not sure I follow all you are saying. Vacuum movement does seem okay. However, tha Vag said it was requesting 80, 80what? %? but the actuator was at 103, %? That would maybe indicate a weak spring in the actuator?
That is when I installed a new EGR cooler to stop the smallest exhaust leak. (Should have welded to in the full open position and welded it from ever leaking again)

Then the mech said the spread (80-103) distance was less from what it was requesting but still off some because he said the turbo rod hole shaft that drives the vanes had some exhaust coming from it so he did NOT adjust the stop up a little. I have talked to many turbo shops and they all say a little exhaust will come out that clearance area under max spool up. (especally oif you have any "back pressure" from you cat or exhaust.) Mine in under 1psi at rpms under 2000 and builds up to 3.5-4 psi at WOT. They say thats normal.

But my question is what about the inbetween vane rod settings? I want to shorten the shaft a little and see what the boost does. If the vanes are a little worn, maybe the shorter position will take up the slack, (if indeed their is any slack to take up)

About the "boost control output test", not sure how to do that and will have to read up on it and see if the mech can complete that while he resets the stop and hopefully the vane rod adjustment.

Let me ask you guys. Is the boost uesd in calculating the fuel delivery to the injectors or is it only a throttle position sent to the ECU ECM telling it to dump more fuel into the combustion chamber?

I am trying to figure out why my instant MPG on the MFD goes into the single digits when normally starting out in first and very slowly increases into the teens in 2nd-3rd and only when in 5th at cruise when the power is backed off does it then stabalize at high MPG numbers again. 60+ Almost seems like a normal asperated acceleration but I do have good boost with no leaks. Only have 104,000 and don't think my injectors are bad nor my turbo. Need to know what actually feeds the proper amount of fuel to the engine.

Thanks
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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Worked great and acts as a bushing but still leaks a small amount of exhaust.

Who really needs that valve to function anyway. As long as it is open, your okay.
If I had to do it again, I would mix some other epoxy with the Quicksteel and make sure the flapper valve was in the wide open position and epoxy the shaft so it was completely air tight. Or heli-arc it. lol
 

whodom

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IMPORTANT NOTES:
Mix the 2 part guiksteel really good but fast, it hardens really really fast. I CAN'T stress this enough. On my first try it hardened on me and I only filled half the hole so I had to get all the stuff out which was super super hard once this stuff hardens. SO MIX FAST but well (60 sec max) then fill the hole asap. Also it helps to have the metal part made already as you can use it to push the quiksteel up into the hole... Doesn't look great but works great, I'll update everyone if this doesn't last long as I'm not sure 500F rating is good enough.

I am about to try this repair on my 2006 Jetta (at 132k miles) and here's something I hope will help. The curing rate of epoxy is greatly affected by its temperature. You can speed up the curing rate by applying heat (heat lamp, hair dryer or heat gun) after the epoxy is in place; therefore you can also SLOW the curing rate by pre-cooling the two epoxy components. I plan on putting the stuff in the refrigerator while I get the car ready; hopefully this will slow the hardening process down sufficiently to give ample time to work the epoxy into place.

The only possible downside I see is that it may be difficult to mix when it's cold. I'll post an update and let everyone know how it works out.

Hugh
2006-1/2 Jetta TDI Diesel Edition
 

whodom

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Well, I repaired my leaky valve today. I tried refrigerating the epoxy ahead of time, which turned out to hinder, rather than help the process. It seemed to be slower to begin curing, but in the end the overall time to cure was about the same. The trouble with this was it stayed runny until shortly before it set up completely, which made it impossible to get a substantial amount into the cavity around the shaft. After 1 try like that, I let the stuff warm up and then mixed it.

In my case, I found I had to wait at least 2 minutes before the epoxy set up enough that it could be worked into the valve. This gave less than 2 minutes working time to get it into place. I wound up applying it 4 or 5 times to get the cavity filled.

It's not pretty, but it seems to be holding. Fingers crossed.

If I had it to do over, I think I'd use a "putty" type epoxy like this: http://www.pcepoxy.com/our-products/putty-epoxies/pc-fahrenheit.php I've used their product "PC7" before and it would be much easier to get into the valve and shape before it set up. If anyone else tries this job, I'd highly recommend using a putty type epoxy rather than a semi-liquid like Quicksteel.

Hugh
2006-1/2 Jetta TDI Diesel Edition
 
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ersteinwehr

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I have 10k miles on my car since making this fix and it continues to run just like it used to.
 

nmea2020

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I also now have success with this fix and made a SS PLATE to help support the QUICKSTEEL


It wouldn't bother me if i had to do it every two years...EASY FIX
 

bondtimbond

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Regarding the posts by "whodom" about using putty epoxy versus a more liquid type: The Quick Steel epoxy that I pictured in my original posting on 8/7/14 is a putty, so I am confused about your comments indicating it isn't. Maybe QuickSteel comes in more than one consistancy? What I used is a log of two part clay epoxy that you cut with a knife and then knead together to mix. It is the consistancy of clay. It does however set quickly, but I was able to perform the entire repair with one layer below the reinserted clip and one layer above it.

So far I have not heard any sign of the hiss, but when I get under the car for my next oil change in a few days I plan to inspect the repair more closely and see how it is holding up.

By the way nmea2020, your plate looks great! I agree that such a plate will only improve the chances of an epoxy repair lasting longer.
 
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whodom

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Regarding the posts by "whodom" about using putty epoxy versus a more liquid type: The Quick Steel epoxy that I pictured in my original posting on 8/7/14 is a putty, so I am confused about your comments indicating it isn't. Maybe QuickSteel comes in more than one consistancy? What I used is a log of two part clay epoxy that you cut with a knife and then knead together to mix. It is the consistancy of clay. It does however set quickly, but I was able to perform the entire repair with one layer below the reinserted clip and one layer above it.
I guess I didn't read closely enough. The Quick Steel I purchased (at Advance Auto Parts IIRC) came in two tubes, just like JB Weld. When mixed, it remained very runny; about like slightly warm honey. I'm sure it is a MUCH easier job with the putty version.

Still, my repair seems to be holding up. I never noticed a hiss (my hearing is not that great), but I was noticing the exhaust smell in the car. That is 99% gone.

Hugh (whodom)
 

subdvr99

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OK, any updates on this fix after a few more months? I have been procrastinating doing anything with my leaky valve, but enough is enough. Either this, a delete, or a replacement....

Thanks!
 

MPG MASTERS 1

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That fix was easy to do but you had to work VERY FAST or the epoxy would set up.
The valve still had a little leak around the shaft becaus there is no seal so the Mechanics suggested replacing with new cooler which is what I ended up doing. BUT, in hind sight, I should have removed the butterfly valve and heli arced the open area shut. Who needs the valve? I would think you could also put the valve in an fixed open position and weld the shaft and open area totally shut. I think Fanko6 does the removal of the flap and welds the shaft hole shut for $75. (I think)
 

325_Guy

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I have over 12,000 miles of driving on my repair with no signs of leaking or degradation of the repair.

To piggyback off of the post above mine, I came to a similar conclusion- who needs the valve, and I used a dremel to cut the shaft off as far inside the housing as I could reach. That way I would be filling a hole instead of trying to form all the sealing material around the shaft. Instead of using the quicksteel epoxy referenced in this thread, I found something called furnace cement and used that instead. Part# FSC16 at Tractor Supply Company for anyone that is interested. This was MUCH easier to apply from underneath the car, as it is a thick, spreadable putty (similar to drywall spackle), designed to seal metal-to-metal joints, and is rated to 2700*F. It needs about an hour to harden and then needs to be cured at around 500*F, I used a propane torch to carefully accomplish this. To top it all off, like others have done I made a sheetmetal blockoff plate that I installed over the repair using the stock bolts.
 

supak111

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I don't know how many miles on my TDI since I stated this thread but mine still holds great.

I just looked into that Furnace Cement FSC16 and it definitely looks like a better choice, especially since it doesn't harder in 5 minutes like the putty I originally used which isn't enough time. I just wouldn't cut the shaft off, I'm sure it holds better with it cut but then you don't have the functionality and might get a check engine light?

Def never expected this many people to try this when I first posted it, I though people would give me crap for this hack job lol. Glad it helped though.
.
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325_Guy

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I just wouldn't cut the shaft off, I'm sure it holds better with it cut but then you don't have the functionality and might get a check engine light?
.
No CEL. I had some concerns as well about impacting the EGR functionality or setting a CEL but the only function the EGR cooler serves is to transfer heat from the exhaust gases into the engine coolant. From what I understand, this helps with engine warm up times in extreme cold operating conditions. The core exhaust gas recirculation function is not affected by the positioning of the diverter valve. In fact, there is no ECM feedback for the positioning of the EGR diverter valve- whether it is sending gases straight through to the intake or into the heat exchanger, all of the requested exhaust gas makes it back into the intake and the ECM has no idea the actual position of the vacuum-controlled valve.

Honestly if I had the mechanical know-how and the $$$, I'd make a sort of "EGR straight pipe", basically delete the EGR cooler portion out of the mix while keeping the EGR system intact. I'm surprised nobody has marketed this.
 
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