5,000 Mile Oil Change

TornadoRed

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uncah91 said:
Well, I didn't stand there and watch, but I did quiz him and Steve on how they would ensure the timing remained on spec (before I asked the job be done) and they indicated they use the VW tools to lock the cam in place and lock the injector pump in place.

We also had a long discussion about which roller bearings were in the kit they used. Part number 038109244H was in the kit they use, rather than 038109244J. The water pump is abrass impeller type pump.

All of that, and the fact that he is already on the recommended list, led me to trust him with my car.
It's off-topic, I know, but does anyone else think that maybe uncah91 did not get the best timing belt replacement? What vendor even offers old parts like that, and what mechanic uses them? What other parts were used and who manufactured them?
 

PetiteFlower

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Sep 14, 2007
Location
Philadelphia, PA
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI Sedan
The long OCI was one of the reasons I GOT a TDI, I was terrible about remembering to take my old car in on time. Once my "free" services are used up I will be totally fine with going 20k between changes, fewer appointments I need to worry about scheduling, fewer times I have to find an alternate way to work or a ride home from the shop, and of course less money going into the car. Reading DBW's info that it won't hurt my car at all is a relief :)
 

zanzabar

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Petaluma, CA
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2004 Jetta BEW 5spd (dual duty track car and daily driver beater)
k1xv said:
Actually, I have a 2003 GMC Duramax 6.6l with no EGR, and its oil stays remarkably clear for thousands of miles. Later Duramax engines with EGR turn their oil black very quickly.
I'm surprised how clean the oil looks in my TDI after EGR system removal too. Still, it's dark, but not opaque like normal.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
uncah91 said:
So, I talked to my mechanic yesterday after I had my TB done, Chris Dale at Import Autowerks. He does jobs correctly and is on the recommended list.

He was recommending 5K intervals based on seeing too many gas engines fail due to sludging on 10K intervals, and having many ALH engines fail due to cam problems he attributed to oil problems. Basically, 5K intervals as cheap insurance vs. catastrophic failure.

I'm thinking that the gas engine failures have zero relevance to the diesel engines, other than showing that VW recommended intervals may not be right.

As far as ALH and cam problems, that has only been known to happen with oil that is out spec, right? I shoul add, I don't believe Chris was doing the oil changes on these ALHs he has seen fail, as the first thing he asked me about was waht spec oil I was planning on using.

If one were to do 5K intervals as cheap insurance, that could reduce the overall motor life from 400 or 500K miles to far less, yes?
The problem with the 1.8T gassers had nothing to do with the 10K interval and EVERYTHING to do with people running CONVENTIONAL OIL FOR 10K INTERVALS!

TDI's should be running as much as 30K between changes on the proper oils and optimal conditions.

To date I have yet to see ANY TDI oil analysis on a properly maintaine engine that needed an oil change with 15K since the last oil change!

FWIW TDI's don't sludge up unless we are talking about a car running WVO/SVO in which case it's not the oil but the fuel diluting and breaking down in the oil.

Do yourself a favor, run 10K on your next oil change and THEN take a sample, post it here and you will find that changing the oil at 10K will be a waste of money and time...Check again at 15K for a more realistic oil change interval.
 

uncah91

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Location
Durham, NC
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2000 VW Golf
Drivbiwire said:
The problem with the 1.8T gassers had nothing to do with the 10K interval and EVERYTHING to do with people running CONVENTIONAL OIL FOR 10K INTERVALS!

TDI's should be running as much as 30K between changes on the proper oils and optimal conditions.

To date I have yet to see ANY TDI oil analysis on a properly maintaine engine that needed an oil change with 15K since the last oil change!

FWIW TDI's don't sludge up unless we are talking about a car running WVO/SVO in which case it's not the oil but the fuel diluting and breaking down in the oil.

Do yourself a favor, run 10K on your next oil change and THEN take a sample, post it here and you will find that changing the oil at 10K will be a waste of money and time...Check again at 15K for a more realistic oil change interval.
So essentially all these "issues" with extended OCIs essentially come down to using out of spec oil? And M1 TDT is fine in an ALH? So I should change my oil for the first time this weekend with my Mann Filter, drive more and worry less?

I'm good with that. :)

Anyone else besides TornadoRed think my motor is going to blow because I have a "bad" TB kit?
 

Sip'n Diesel

Veteran Newbie
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I wouldn't say it is "bad." but whoever sold it to you has poor turnover rates in their inventory (IMHO.) I wouldn't start freaking out, but I would definitely be concerned and start asking A LOT of questions

also, the person who did the labor is questionable

did your timing get checked to be in spec with VCDS?

 

uncah91

Veteran Member
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Jun 18, 2009
Location
Durham, NC
TDI
2000 VW Golf
I don't know if VCDS was used, but I would bet so. These guys are professional mechanics on the trusted list who have been around for a long time. Other people on the site recommend them. At some point when you turn the car over you have to trust people.

I will throw this quote out from the BoraParts website:
"In 2003 the large roller was changed from 038109244J to 038109244M (or H in some brands)" So H is a brand specific part number, not necessarily old?

I am planning on going to the Asheville, NC GTG, so I'll have the opportunity for people to whack me over the head with knowledge there. :D I'll make sure I get hooked up to VagCom there.
 

Drivbiwire

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uncah91 said:
So essentially all these "issues" with extended OCIs essentially come down to using out of spec oil? And M1 TDT is fine in an ALH? So I should change my oil for the first time this weekend with my Mann Filter, drive more and worry less?

I'm good with that. :)

Anyone else besides TornadoRed think my motor is going to blow because I have a "bad" TB kit?
Forget wrong spec oil, they used THE WRONG oil for those motors!

To make things worse they were using a 5w30 conventional oil! The oil would thin out of grade on every run due to the massive amount of heat the engines generate.

Secondly the oils would break down very rapidly and could not prevent combustion by-products and the vaporizing oil from forming varnish and gums in the engine. If you ever open a motor and see varnish stained internals you best not be buying that motor or car!

The 1.8T runs superbly on 5w40 (Mobil 1 TDT is my preference). Every sample we ever took from those motors showed at 10K at least a 70% reserve left in oxidation and nitration. The TDI on the other hand would hardly register ANY break down after 20K (just to compare which motor is harder on oil).

FYI most dealers were using 5w30 Castrol oil (Conventional). Just like Mercedes got burned by the dealers pulling the same stupid stunt VW owners learned the hard way about sludge and #1 aft bearing wear from the use of the wrong oils in relatively short 10K intervals.

In my opinion no modern engine should run a conventional oil. Reasons are emissions (high heat in the motor), leaner combustion, higher amounts of EGR (Gas or diesel) and increased power per liter in respect to engine output.
 

uncah91

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Location
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2000 VW Golf
Sip'n Diesel said:
yet this "professional" recommends a 5,000 mile OCI on your TDI :rolleyes::confused:
I'm no no mechanic, but I think there is a pretty big difference between recommending 5K OCI and toefing an engine by using crap parts and crap tools, which is what you are accusing.

Would I have liked to do this TB myself using BoraParts and with help from a great mechanic? Hell, yes. Was that an option for me? No.

I saw the TB and serpentine belt after the change and it wasn't pretty. I'm glad I had them changed ASAP after I figured out I was 6K over on a 60K belt.
 

uncah91

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Location
Durham, NC
TDI
2000 VW Golf
Drivbiwire said:
Forget wrong spec oil, they used THE WRONG oil for those motors!

To make things worse they were using a 5w30 conventional oil! The oil would thin out of grade on every run due to the massive amount of heat the engines generate.

Secondly the oils would break down very rapidly and could not prevent combustion by-products and the vaporizing oil from forming varnish and gums in the engine. If you ever open a motor and see varnish stained internals you best not be buying that motor or car!

The 1.8T runs superbly on 5w40 (Mobil 1 TDT is my preference). Every sample we ever took from those motors showed at 10K at least a 70% reserve left in oxidation and nitration. The TDI on the other hand would hardly register ANY break down after 20K (just to compare which motor is harder on oil).

FYI most dealers were using 5w30 Castrol oil (Conventional). Just like Mercedes got burned by the dealers pulling the same stupid stunt VW owners learned the hard way about sludge and #1 aft bearing wear from the use of the wrong oils in relatively short 10K intervals.

In my opinion no modern engine should run a conventional oil. Reasons are emissions (high heat in the motor), leaner combustion, higher amounts of EGR (Gas or diesel) and increased power per liter in respect to engine output.
That's very educational, thanks.

In your opinion, given the extra wear that is observed in the first 1K after a change, howmuch is engine life hurt by 5K OCIs as opposed to 10K? What failures are likely to result as result of a 5K OCI, as opposed to a 10K one?
 

Drivbiwire

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Location
Boise, Idaho
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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
uncah91 said:
That's very educational, thanks.

In your opinion, given the extra wear that is observed in the first 1K after a change, howmuch is engine life hurt by 5K OCIs as opposed to 10K? What failures are likely to result as result of a 5K OCI, as opposed to a 10K one?
The wear rate totals are very small, the point in all this is that why change an oil that is performing the same at 15K as it was when it had 1K?

The other point is that too many people think there is some benefit to changing the oil more frequently and there is proof that is not the case.

For those who are interested in getting the most miles out of their engines with the best possible performance and lowest operating cost along the way, there is no substitute for high quality synthetic oils that are a 0w40 or 5w40 viscosity. Generally oils in this viscosity range are at the top of the game in respect to the best additives and overall performance of any oil worldwide.
 

woofie2

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2004
Location
Republic of Southern Illinois
TDI
Former TDI owner
I was in a dealer where a guy was getting his 4th oil change at 20 k miles, and he had only had the car for 6 months, I was shocked, and said you are not harsh city driving (aka sitting in traffic) why are you getting it changed that early?

he said "because the dealer said I had to" :confused:
I replied that sitting in traffic for an hour driving to and from work on a trip covering 20 miles is not the same as driving 70 miles on the highway.
He was like "oh yeah" 10k miles or every 6 months is just fine, (I say 6 months because of the possibility of unburnt fuel entering the oil during the winter, is higher and and if you are not driving 10k miles in 6 months the oil could not be getting hot enough to evaporate off the moisture and fuel in the oil.) the service manager was like, but I want the extra revenue.

I would almost bet money they are just changing the filter and topping off the oil on the 5 k and charging for an entire oilchange...

I changed the conventional oil in my 85 golf every ~5000 miles, or more(broke collage student at the time), and the car never burned any oil, even at 190k miles (amazing for a gas car)

My grandfather who ran a CONOCO station had a loyal customer who came in every 3000 miles and got a fresh filter and a quart of oil, he had never drained the oil, until my uncle did an oil change one day, the owner was pissed he had 40k miles on the car and the oil plug had never been out. he managed to back out of the price of the oil change.
A properly maintained and functioning engine will not contaminate the oil, so why change it? the trouble is most people do not properly maintain or pay attention to their cars.

A business owner selling used cars said that about 3/4 of the local people never change their oil, they just buy a new used car every 3-4 years because their engine fails.
 

Drivbiwire

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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
woofie2 said:
I was in a dealer where a guy was getting his 4th oil change at 20 k miles, and he had only had the car for 6 months, I was shocked, and said you are not harsh city driving (aka sitting in traffic) why are you getting it changed that early?

he said "because the dealer said I had to" :confused:
I replied that sitting in traffic for an hour driving to and from work on a trip covering 20 miles is not the same as driving 70 miles on the highway.
He was like "oh yeah" 10k miles or every 6 months is just fine, (I say 6 months because of the possibility of unburnt fuel entering the oil during the winter, is higher and and if you are not driving 10k miles in 6 months the oil could not be getting hot enough to evaporate off the moisture and fuel in the oil.) the service manager was like, but I want the extra revenue.

I would almost bet money they are just changing the filter and topping off the oil on the 5 k and charging for an entire oilchange...

I changed the conventional oil in my 85 golf every ~5000 miles, or more(broke collage student at the time), and the car never burned any oil, even at 190k miles (amazing for a gas car)

My grandfather who ran a CONOCO station had a loyal customer who came in every 3000 miles and got a fresh filter and a quart of oil, he had never drained the oil, until my uncle did an oil change one day, the owner was pissed he had 40k miles on the car and the oil plug had never been out. he managed to back out of the price of the oil change.
A properly maintained and functioning engine will not contaminate the oil, so why change it? the trouble is most people do not properly maintain or pay attention to their cars.

A business owner selling used cars said that about 3/4 of the local people never change their oil, they just buy a new used car every 3-4 years because their engine fails.
Can you explain how unburnt fuel is going to get into the sump in a DIESEL ENGINE?

And again you are getting way to creative with 6 months. The minimum is one year and optimally it's every 2 years.

Again going back to facts and sampling I have NEVER seen a TDI with any measurable amount of fuel in the sump that was in proper working order.

If you have a TDI with more than .5% fuel detected you have a bad injector(s) that are leaking after shutdown.

Because of the diesel combustion process you cannot get fuel in the oil again if everything is working properly since there is no pre-mixing of fuel and air during the intake stroke.
 

TornadoRed

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uncah91 said:
I don't know if VCDS was used, but I would bet so. These guys are professional mechanics on the trusted list who have been around for a long time. Other people on the site recommend them. At some point when you turn the car over you have to trust people.
Upon reflection, I guess you are probably right. Several of the roughly 50 mentions of Chris Dale in these forums were made by me, suggesting Import Autowerks to North Carolinians. Here is one instance where he apparently did some good work (werk?): http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1313739&postcount=15

Upon further reflection, I guess he probably has enough experience to know which manufacturers of timing belt parts are reliable and which ones should be avoided.

But it never hurts to be too careful. I would rather know before the work was done rather than after, that an older obsolete part was being substituted for the newer updated part number.
 

Sip'n Diesel

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uncah91 said:
I'm no no mechanic, but I think there is a pretty big difference between recommending 5K OCI and toefing an engine by using crap parts and crap tools, which is what you are accusing.
no I am not, try reading it over again because you must be confused. please do not put words in my mouth :)

I am no mechanic either, but in the world of TDIs any "mechanic" who recommends to me a 5,000 mile OCI on a stock motor is NOT my friend :(

perhaps the fellow in question is on the Trusted TDI Mechanics list. the questions now become; WHY is he on the list, HOW LONG has he been on the list, WHO put him on the list, who are his customers, are they satisfied with jobs done properly, any problems to date and; if so, how were they rectified? questions, questions, questions!

Trusted TDI Mechanics are not always "professional mechanics." in fact, many professional mechanics in the industry don't even know how to work on a TDI properly. that list is just what it says-- "TRUSTED," as in they KNOW TDIs. some are even more highly respected/regarded in the TDI community and have earned the title of GURU... certainly there are no Guru's out there recommending 5,000 mile OCIs on stock-ish/non-greased TDIs :rolleyes:

that list is not perfect, in case you haven't figured it out already... but we do have members here who are doing their best to make sure nobody's TDI gets tooefed or MINION'd... especially newbs like ourselves :D

I am not accusing the use of crap parts/tools. the current standard for TDI timing systems is a 100k kit, no more and no less (except for 2009 which is now a longer interval IIRC.) if someone is using anything other than 100k parts that sends up a red flag, sorry. in fact, the 100k kits have been around for quite awhile now; so HOW does someone end up with anything different in inventory and ACTUALLY install it on a customer's car? :confused:

as for the tools; you either have them or you don't. there really is no such thing as crap tools when it comes to TDI TB tools. I was simply asking if you verified VCDS was used to check the timing (instead of paint marks or whatnot,) since TB maintenance CANNOT BE COMPLETED PROPERLY WITHOUT VCDS

just because your car runs now, doesn't mean the job was done properly. again, I'm not accusing the use of crap parts/tools; I'm advocating that you personally verify the job was done right if you intend to keep driving your TDI for many miles to come

BTW, the proper spelling is "tooefing" and I hope this never happens to your TDI ;)
TornadoRed said:
But it never hurts to be too careful. I would rather know before the work was done rather than after, that an older obsolete part was being substituted for the newer updated part number.
^^quoted for truth^^
TornadoRed said:
It's off-topic, I know, but does anyone else think that maybe uncah91 did not get the best timing belt replacement? What vendor even offers old parts like that, and what mechanic uses them? What other parts were used and who manufactured them?
<-- more unanswered, yet crucial questions -->
TornadoRed said:
That roller 038 109 244H is the older obsolete version, probably the large one.

If it was manufactured by INA, then it is rated for 80k miles, not 100k miles like the newer ones.

If it was not manufactured by INA, then it could fail at almost any time but will probably be okay for 20k-30k miles. So it should last until after any reasonable point where you could blame the shop or the parts supplier.

Genuine TDI experts do not use old TB kits with obsolete parts. For this reason I must question whether Import Autowerks belongs on the Recommended Mechanics list.
TornadoRed said:
You say that Chris Dale at Import Autowerks performed the TB change correctly -- how do you know? Did he use the correct tools? Or are there paint marks on the rollers and belt? Did he replace all the roller/idlers, and the water pump, and the single-use bolts?
 

uncah91

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Location
Durham, NC
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2000 VW Golf
Sorry I wasn't intending to be offensive, if I came off that way. You asked if VCDS was used. I said that I bet that it was (as the mechanics have good reputations on this site). You said I shouldn't trust them because they recommended 5K intervals, implying I should question whether the used VCDS. What was I supposed to take out of that statement?

It wasn't an old kit. It was a kit manufactured by ContiTech, distributred by WorldPac and when he looked it up on the parts site, that was the part number they listed. I asked all this before I let them touch my car. BoraParts says that is the part number for some manufacturers. I'm inclined to trust the info on that site.

Anyway, I'm a more educated TDI owner now, which is always a good thing.
 

fnord

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Nov 8, 2009
Location
Chapel Hill NC
TDI
2002 Golf TDI 115K
Another slightly off topic post, but I'm thinking of using Import Autowerks for my upcoming TB job. I just bought my first TDI ('02 Golf 98K mi) and I'm easily spooked off of mechanics, so this thread is not boding well. How's the car uncah91? Any reason to NOT be concerned about this guy now?

I'm thinking of heading to Asheville now, and getting TurbineWhine to do the job. It's a haul, but it's worth the drive if it gets done right.
 

TornadoRed

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fnord: you should always be suspicious of any mechanic not known to you personally. So do your own research; find out what parts they normally replace and compare that list to what you get in one of the deluxe timing belt kits, like the one from Dieselgeek; and ask whether they normally set the timing slightly advanced.

Edit: did you recently buy a TDI, and if so then which one? Update your profile.
 
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