4L65e or AX-15 in tdi jeep ?

[Joel451]

Looking for some input from experienced users of either transmission. I'm putting a 2.0l tdi from a 2005 passat into a 2005 jeep LJ. I'm expecting 170hp and 300+ftlbs of torque from the tdi after refresh. I want to be able to take the jeep on multi state road trips pulling a 3000lb trailer and also use it on moderate trails (no rock crawling). I've pretty much narrowed down the transmission to either the 4L65e or AX-15. Cost would be about the same. AX-15 would be much simpler to install. So is the 4L65e worth the extra headache that comes with an auto ?

 

[PickleRick]

If you're like me and no longer like the thrill of a manual transmisson its worth it.


I'm planning a build of some sort as well with one of my spare passats and am interested in how to make the tps for the tranny work with the passat tbw pedal.

 

[Joel451]

Agreed, I'm no spring chicken. Just not sure if I have the skills to make the auto work like it should

 

[1.9ZOOK]

I kinda like the 40% more horse power.

 

[PickleRick]

40% power train loss seems way exaggerated. Im no expert but @ 20% hp max loss seems much more realistic.

Plus off road I've always liked an automatic better.

 

[evguy1]

There are quite a few guys on the TDI truck swap Facebook page using the auto so you may get good info there. Personally I love my AX15.
Need an aftermarket TCM which will add some expense but should work well. https://www.facebook.com/groups/291980407818664/?multi_permalinks=1377448682605159,1373670096316351&notif_id=1605391978247420&notif_t=group_activity&ref=notif

 

[oilhammer]

GM vs. Toyota, well that's an easy one, LOL....

 

[redbarron55]

Somehow in my adult (Married) life I have had 1 GM vehicle (a used 1990 350 Suburban) and maybe 13 VWs, 3 Chryslers, 2 Fords, 1 Mercedes 450 and 1 Toyota Prius.
Not many GM or Toyotas there.
I had never considered us to be VW people until I counted the number of them we have had. We were very surprised at the result.
After the old Diesel Rabbits (4 total + 1 gas and a Dasher Diesel wagon) Connie did not even want to try the 2009 JSW, but when she did to humor me she loved it.
2 JSW Diesel 1 Passat 2.8 TSI, Two Westfalia campers, 1 Touareg TDI Exec.
As to the Automatic vs the manual --- Old Knees win

 

[oilhammer]

I hope I die before that happens to me.

Just helped a friend finish up his manual conversion in a Buick Roadmaster station wagon, complete with an updated Impala SS engine and suspension/brakes/steering. Tremec 6sp. Total sleeper car. Fake wood sides and all. Only downside is that it is somewhat of a reach to the center of the car to get to the shifter, as it is not long enough nor at the right angle for that wide of a car really. So he's getting a custom made shifter for it, which when he inquired about it, the guy that makes them said he already has the pattern on file, because this is a common request. Manuals in B-bodies.

 

[evguy1]

I don't think I have ever done an engine swap where I didn't have to re shape the shifter.
Yea, knees are a thing. Just getting my 08 Dakota with a Cummins ISB170 and NV4500 ready to sell because of the clutch. Bought a Ram 1500/auto. Life goes on.

 

[ScottBigger]

Neither, use the NV3550. Its a medium duty transmission as compared to the light duty AX15.

 

[evguy1]

I think you may be thinking the AX5?
The AX15 is an awesome trans. The NV3550 is nicknamed the "can of marbles" because it rattles so much behind the 4L gas engine. You stick it behind a 4 cylinder diesel and its truly embarrassing when sitting at a stop sign. I swapped out the NV3550 in my 2000 XJ for a brand new AX15 from Novak. HUGE difference in sound and nicer shifting. I had an AX15 in my first diesel swap which was a 2.8L Isuzu in a Jeep ZJ and we drove the bag off it for 14 years. The bellhousing from the 3550 bolts to the AX15.

 

[PickleRick]

Guys have run the ax15 behind the 4bt, not a shabby transmission.

 

[Joel451]

Thanks for the facebook group link evguy1, lots of info there about putting the 4l60e behind a tdi. Cost of the tcm ($600), torque converter ($250), trans to tc adapter ($650) and wiring harness ($150) make it a bit more than a new ax-15. My wife informed me that if I put a manual in the jeep she won't drive it on trails, another point for the ax-15. I appreciate all the input from you savvy swappers.

 

[PickleRick]

The 4l60e is usually dirt cheap to have rebuilt with a few upgrades if you pull it and drop it off at the transmission shop.

Compared to my 4r100 rebuild with some reliability mods

 

[[486]]

4l60e is very easy to wire up as a full manual valve body
power loss is minimal once the tc is locked

the real cool part is that you can run a high stall converter that'll let you light off a large turbo real quick, and there's almost no downside to it, as you have the lockup to negate the loose converter whenever you're already moving (think of it like the clutch on a manual transmission)
also instead of losing a bunch of boost on shifts you actually get little spikes

 

[PickleRick]

How are people attaching the tps sensor(formally a kick down cable) for the tranny in throttle by wire swaps?

 

[[486]]

on some controllers (like the microsquirt solution) you can just grab one of the existing APP 0-5v wires
you do a sweep of the sensor with the laptop hooked up and that gets you your voltage range from 0-100%

 

[Joel451]

So if you convert to a full manual valve body you don't need a tcm? If I did this would it be better to just get a non electric auto ?

 

[jmodge]

That would be a 700r4

 

[PickleRick]

Several companies do make full manual conversion kit for the 4l60e where no electronics are needed. Some can manual or auto shift, some are purely manual.

Jegs and summit are both suppliers.

 

[[486]]

So if you convert to a full manual valve body you don't need a tcm? If I did this would it be better to just get a non electric auto ?

you just hard wire it for 4th gear
toss the TC lockup on a toggle switch
then the 4 manual lever positions past N correspond to the 4 gears

ETA: actually, remembering more of it you might need to put a switch on one of the solenoids in order to get 1st gear.
It's real easy to position a switch next to the linkage on the transmission itself.

 

[PickleRick]

There is a vac solenoid (or module) in the kits i looked into that controls what i believe to be the pressure inside the transmission.

Before pulling the trigger on one id remcomend a call to the jegs or summit tech team to ask about attaching the vac to our tdi diesels via the tandem pump.

 

[[486]]

There is a vac solenoid (or module) in the kits i looked into that controls what i believe to be the pressure inside the transmission.

Before pulling the trigger on one id remcomend a call to the jegs or summit tech team to ask about attaching the vac to our tdi diesels via the tandem pump.

they use the vacuum signal as a TPS

 

[PickleRick]

How does the tandem pump of a PD diesel vacuum pull compared to that of a normal NA engines intake? A NA motor makes -15 to -20 plus lbs vac and approaches zero at wot.

I see that as a possible issue.

Unless it just needs that neg pressure at idle to reduce pressure at idle/slowing speeds in which case any manifold vac line should do.

 

[Joel451]

So if the tc acts as the clutch does that mean the engine will stall if you leave the tc locked and come to a stop ?

 

[PickleRick]

Stall or burn something up. The ones I looked at didn't use a toggle switch to unlock or lock the TC, it operated via vacuum. Having a toggle switch would be terrific off road. As you could lock up in any gear and adding a transbrake at the same time would be equally useful. A toggle switch sounds like a hassle as a street vehicle.

The stand alone units should be able to be wired into the VW throttle by wire pedal somehow in order to work as the tps sensor.

My only issue with the 4l60e on many swaps is how wide they are compared to the manual transmissions. I want to use one in my 1st gen 4 runner build but I think the front drive shaft will hit the pan, being ifs the front shaft runs pretty parallel with the frame. Clicking a transfer case like a Dana 300 is an option but not ideal as i think it would be so low it would catch like a small toe on a coffee table when off road.

 

[[486]]

So if the tc acts as the clutch does that mean the engine will stall if you leave the tc locked and come to a stop ?

yes
tc provides the slip to let you stop in gear, lockup clutch locks the engine to the transmission input shaft

How does the tandem pump of a PD diesel vacuum pull compared to that of a normal NA engines intake? A NA motor makes -15 to -20 plus lbs vac and approaches zero at wot.
I see that as a possible issue.
Unless it just needs that neg pressure at idle to reduce pressure at idle/slowing speeds in which case any manifold vac line should do.

what part of "they use the vacuum signal as a TPS" doesn't make sense
I can explain further, but there's just such a depth to it that it'd take days

 

[PickleRick]

My question was that before ordering such a kit verify it will work with a turbo application as the manifold pressure past idle are vastly different from an NA engine. Not so much a question as telling the OP that if it was me that is the question id ask before ordering. I realize it works as a tps but a few things to consider...

Vac at idle...-15 to -20 on a NA or turbo car.

Wot on a turbo car 15+ psi, near 0 on a NA

Part throttle acceleration on a turbo car 0 to 5 psi depending on load. Does the torque converter unlock (passing gear) each time your turbo starts building boost because it thinks you're passing?

I feel like there more to explain on this and I've not found any first hand experience with the manual valve body as a daily driver.

 

[[486]]

that sort of controller just plain old will not work
it is not looking for vacuum for vacuum's sake
MAP being used for load sensing is purely gasoline engine stuff
even swapping out to a different range of 0-5v sensor you will not get a usable result trying to use boost as the same deal, as it'll be way sluggish in response and in some situations may be totally unable to recover to the point of making boost without manual intervention