4-Motion B5.5 TDI, Who's done it and how did you do it?

[Spring1898]

Thinking it may be time to put together an old idea into motion. I know there has been discussion about this but I have not seen or heard of one done personally.

What was the base vehicle for the project? 1.8T was the best I was told. Or V6 with complete donor vehicle?
What trans options are available and is there an O1E or similarly strong trans option for towing up to capacity of a westfalia hitch?

 

[CantWrite]

We aren't far off from the 25 year import law......

Nonetheless, I acquired my car because the previous owner was going down this exact route. I will message him and see if he ever completed it.

I will report back

 

[Spring1898]

Stupid import law. Keeping us from good TDI's and Defenders.

From what I can tell the 1.8T is the best way to go. But 4 Motion 1.8t Wagons are hard to find. I don't need it to be a wagon, but would prefer.
I am surprised no one else has commented, B5.5 population must have really gone down in recent years.

 

[Yetii]

Stupid import law. Keeping us from good TDI's and Defenders.

From what I can tell the 1.8T is the best way to go. But 4 Motion 1.8t Wagons are hard to find. I don't need it to be a wagon, but would prefer.
I am surprised no one else has commented, B5.5 population must have really gone down in recent years.

I know Frans from dutchautoparts could source you the parts for the swap. I know he told me when I did my 5speed conversation that the transmissions were becoming harder to come by. It took him a month to get my tranny.

I just recently been put onto korwerks llc in NY. They seem to have the parts too buy right now on their website to convert a FWD auto tdi to a manual awd tdi.

I personally would think swapping the tranny and rear suspension is easier than swapping a motor. Not sure what the motor swap entails but I would assume you’d need to swap the ecu harness and cluster.

 

[oilhammer]

I have a B5.5 4Mo wagon, AWM engine, but it is an automatic. I harvested the entire driveline and everything needed to make it run from a wrecked BHW car. I looked into converting it, and here was the problem I ran into:

The transmission.

So, both the BHW and AWM engines bolt to essentially the same 5HP19FL ZF transmission, the 4Mo cars use the FLA (Forward mounted Longitudinal All wheel drive). The issue is the gearing. The BHW uses a substantially taller geared transmission. I do not know if it is JUST the final drive or if the actual gear ratios are also different.

Since my AWM's automatic was working fine, I was content to just at least for now use the lower gearing with the diesel. The AWM automatic is geared fairly close to a 5sp ALH car (at least the top end is anyway). However, the TCM's shift mapping is also all wrong, so even if I bolted the BHW up to the AWM's transmission, the TCM would have it spinning the engine WAY too fast and downshifting/holding gears much too different (the AWM will happily spin past 6000 RPMs, and if you stab it doing 70 MPH, it will jump down to 3rd gear!).

This problem *could* be fixed easily with software. All I'd need to do is program in the AWM transmission ratios but use the BHW transmission shift mapping, or at least some happy combination of the two. I could never find anyone to do that, although there are people that do this for Porsches, and they (Boxster) use essentially the same ZF transmission and same basic TCM. But trying to get the Porsche elitists to do something for us diesel Volkswagen peons is next to impossible. Pricks.

So, next obvious choice would be to convert the car to a manual. Manuals don't care about any of that crap, because all that is done via good ol' human gray matter.... but, the REAR differential would also need to be changed, because for reasons unknown to me, all the manual 4Mo B5s use one ratio rear diff, all the automatics use another. I'd rather have a manual anyway.

So.... not many stateside donors available (obviously these would all be gassers). The B5, while based on the same chassis as the Audi A4, uses the same REAR suspension as the larger Audi A6 (we are talking AWD cars here.... the FWD is completely different). So while they sold plenty of quattro stick shift A4s here, those won't help for anything beyond the transmission itself. Rear diff and prop shaft won't work. And I could probably count on one hand how many manual A6 quattros that Audi sold here.

So that left importing transmission/rear diff.... and Frans was never able to get back with me.

So, I gave up, fixed the AWM (it needed its breather box rebuilt, its SAI deleted, and a couple other minor things), and it still motors on... recently crossed 1/4 million miles.... 23 MPG on Premium and all (thankfully I don't drive it much). But if mine were a manual, I'd have already converted it.

 

[d24tdi]

FWIW I have a TDI-geared 5-speed 01A transmission sitting in the garage. Leftover from a B5 A4 TDI swap project that never happened as I used the AHU engine that was intended for it in something else. That 01A would be just the right gearbox for a swap into any B5 or B5.5 car. If you had a 4mo manual trans 1.8T wagon to start with it'd be a bolt-in affair, just swap engine, trans, and I think rear diff too (IIRC it's a common enough ratio to find stateside out of a M/T B5 A4, maybe a 2.8L car?). If the starting point were an automatic then you'd need to do all that, plus the usual 5-speed conversion stuff, which is not too big a deal. Maybe a different driveshaft too, for the standard trans vs auto? Not sure.

Agree getting the trans strategy figured out to run an automatic would be a challenge.

Edit: now I'm reading the above post more carefully and seeing that the B5 Passat couldn't use a diff from a B5 A4. Interesting, I did not realize there were A6 parts in the rear of the B5 Passat cars. What about a rear diff from a C5 A6 2.7TT 6-speed though? Those are relatively common. I think Audis4Parts has them around pretty regularly. Not sure if the 01E and 01A use the same diff ratios though. 4.11 I think for the 01E but can't remember what that 01A was going to need. Something tells me it's the same.

One other option for a good TDI swap recipient B5 wagon: find a W8 6-speed car with engine trouble and drop a TDI into that. TDI ratio'd 6-speed 01E is a lot easier to find than a 5-speed 01A, and the mounting and shift linkage parts for the 6spd, driveline, proper rear diff gearing, would already be there. Trouble would be you'd need a few front clip parts and engine mounting/plumbing pieces from a 4cyl turbo car.... and you'd have to be OK with altering a unicorn vehicle. But IIRC at least one or two have been swapped with BHWs.

 

[oilhammer]

d24tdi, you missed the part about the rear diff... it is NOT at all common stateside. I'd bet that manual 4Mo B5 cars sold here were probably extremely rare. I've only ever seen three. Total. Ever. One of our club members here compu_85, his dad had one (an AWM sedan, 2003 or 4 I think).

 

[d24tdi]

d24tdi, you missed the part about the rear diff... it is NOT at all common stateside. I'd bet that manual 4Mo B5 cars sold here were probably extremely rare. I've only ever seen three. Total. Ever. One of our club members here compu_85, his dad had one (an AWM sedan, 2003 or 4 I think).

Yup, I did miss it.

Still wonder if C5 A6 2.7L rear end parts would work (see edit above) but it sounds like maybe there are no easy solutions on this one, otherwise I am sure you would have found the way.

 

[d24tdi]

I found the info on the 01A trans I have, apparently I actually wrote it down. It's a DGW code 01A which uses a 3.889:1 front diff. I think all the 01E 6-speeds in the US 2.7TT A6 cars had 4.111 gearing.... so it'd be SOL on using one of them in the rear, even if it could bolt in.

I guess that leaves only a rear diff from a C5 5-speed 2.8L quattro car (did they even make those????) ... hen's teeth at best as you said, assuming they have the right ratio. Or importing one from Europe or England where they are probably common, but always a hassle.

 

[Spring1898]

The idea of converting an Auto TDI to a manual seems interesting to me. I will have to get in touch with them to see what the details are. It looks like they don't have any kits in stock, but maybe they know the details and a part list.

The trans itself is less concerning to me IF I can get one from Europe. I would lean heavily toward an 01E for the strength needed for towing. I think DQS was the lowest geared FWD trans, but I don't know that that corresponds to in AWD.

I have already had a 6 Speed conversion FWD TDI B5.5 with all the parts sourced from Europe, but that was 8-9 years ago, so if Frans is having a hard time getting actual parts that I think the project either way is SOL. I am not in a position where I can do this in any way half baked or drag out the project.

 

[Yetii]

The idea of converting an Auto TDI to a manual seems interesting to me. I will have to get in touch with them to see what the details are. It looks like they don't have any kits in stock, but maybe they know the details and a part list.

The trans itself is less concerning to me IF I can get one from Europe. I would lean heavily toward an 01E for the strength needed for towing. I think DQS was the lowest geared FWD trans, but I don't know that that corresponds to in AWD.

I have already had a 6 Speed conversion FWD TDI B5.5 with all the parts sourced from Europe, but that was 8-9 years ago, so if Frans is having a hard time getting actual parts that I think the project either way is SOL. I am not in a position where I can do this in any way half baked or drag out the project.

Korwerks has the Conversion kit. It’s a 5 speed awd conversion kit. KIT

Personally my experience with Frans was great. Also by korwerks photos, the items I received from Frans were much cleaner and in better condition. Plus he provided a new clutch and not a used one. Comparing their 5speed conversion kit price to the kit i got from Frans. Frans has a better price. And that’s with shipping from europe to east coast USA.

 

[Mozambiquer]

Korwerks has the Conversion kit. It’s a 5 speed awd conversion kit. KIT

Personally my experience with Frans was great. Also by korwerks photos, the items I received from Frans were much cleaner and in better condition. Plus he provided a new clutch and not a used one. Comparing their 5speed conversion kit price to the kit i got from Frans. Frans has a better price. And that’s with shipping from europe to east coast USA.

Korwerks is closing down. I guess it was too much of a hassle and he decided to hang it up.

 

[CantWrite]

@Spring1898 just to keep my word, as the pros have jumped in!!

The previous owner who converted my wagon converted an Audi Allroad to TDI, and currently owns a 1.8t B5.5 4-Mo and has considered converting it. I asked and he sold the Audi.

After reading the above posts, maybe it's easier to sell the 4-mo wagon you have and convert an All-road? Not sure what can of worms that opens up, and not sure of the interior space difference.....

 

[Spring1898]

I think the All Road is smaller.

As far as Korwerks, I can understand hanging things up. It is kind of a niche market. I am also not sure what the interchangeability is between the 01a kit they offer and an 01e trans that I would need.

So depending on what they say, Frans may be my best option if he gets back to me. He used to do upgrades in house, so having him build up or put together a complete kit means it is easier for the end builder to drop everything in. Doing that would have saved me time and money the first time around.

 

[Yetii]

Korwerks is closing down. I guess it was too much of a hassle and he decided to hang it up.

They closing business? Wow I just looked on their Facebook page. He sold his inventory to a guy is MASS. I’ve never heard of this guy and can’t find him on the forums. Same with the guy he sold his inventory to. I wonder who his supplier was…

 

[CantWrite]

And I read Korwerks website last night, I may have missed it, or maybe it goes on assumption. The floor pans are different and one must start with a 4-mo car. I am sure all of you know, I just found it strange that his website didn't make mention of this.

 

[bbob203]

I’m working on multiple 4mo b5.5 TDI projects. One is a FWD to 4motion using a b6 audi quattro rear end which will not require a swapping of the rear floor pan. The b6 quattro rear suspension is similar to the FWD in that the floor pan is nearly identical in width and uses the Shock and spring method just like the FWD. The only issue I need to tackle is which gas tank and prop shaft to use. Using a B7 manual 6speed 02x Gasser trans that has almost perfect gearing for a TDI.

The other one is a 4motion 1.8t automatic swapped to ALH and retaining the automatic by converting a TDI geared GMR 5hp19fl(FWD) to 5hp19fla(AWD) I had bought from someone on here but after meticulous research discovered the intermediate center diff ratios he use were incorrect so I imported the proper ratios from a buddy in Finland so I now have a very tall geared TDI automatic. I paired it with a 3.89 rear differential from a w8 the 5 speed b5.5 4motion also have this differential. For this car I imported a european PD130 EDC15 harness and reworked it to work with VE fuel pump.

If you’re using a BHW the best thing to do is swap a complete dashboard with harness intact in a single piece(there are YouTube videos on how to do this) or disassemble and remove the dash cover to swap the dash harness makes it plug and play.

One benefit of using an 02x transmission is that it uses the same propshaft as an automatic and some are 4.11 final drive and others are 3.89 Final. So if you were manual swapping an Auto 1.8t you would just have to confirm which final drive the transmission is.

The rear final drive ratios on 4motions are as follows:

1.8t 4mo 5mt: 3.89’
1.8t 4mo 5at: 4.11
V6 4mo 5at: 4.11
V6 4mo 6mt(01e): 4.11
W8 4mo 6mt(01e): 4.11
W8 4mo 5at: 3.89

02x Final drives:
B6 1.8t GJW 02X:
1st: 3.667
2nd: 2.053
3rd: 1.370
4th: 1.032
5th: 0.800
6th: 0.658
Reverse: 3.400
Final Drive: 4.111

B7 2.0t GVE 02X:
1st: 3.667
2nd: 2.053
3rd: 1.370
4th: 1.032
5th: 0.800
6th: 0.658
Reverse: 3.400
Final Drive: 3.889

B7 3.2 GYY 02X:
1st: 3.300
2nd: 1.850
3rd: 1.286
4th: 0.939
5th: 0.750
6th: 0.641
Reverse: 3.400
Final Drive: 4.375

 

[CantWrite]

@bbob203 holy fun in cursing!!! Do you have build threads anywhere that I can follow? Do you plan to sell them or why are you doing them?

I dream about these, but honestly, in SW CO, the roads are 99% clear and good studded winter tires take me most places. So I do not want the MPG penalty. What is the penalty in fuel economy? the other 1% I can take my 4x4.

I am stoked to hear people are still messing with these like the dinosaur I am.

 

[Spring1898]

So I just need to make sure that whatever trans I get from Europe has a front diff that matches whichever vehicle configuration I find here.

I am thinking for the simplicity of the builder, of just importing a PD130 built in europe. But Frans hasn't gotten back to me on cost, availability or ship time. Would kind of like to know that before I drop the money on the car itself.

 

[jetta 97]

So I just need to make sure that whatever trans I get from Europe has a front diff that matches whichever vehicle configuration I find here.

I am thinking for the simplicity of the builder, of just importing a PD130 built in europe. But Frans hasn't gotten back to me on cost, availability or ship time. Would kind of like to know that before I drop the money on the car itself.

One more thing need to ad is ECU tuning to convert to manual , BHW can not be just coded to manual as they never had manual transmission on this engine code.
I can help you on that if you decide to do this .

 

[compu_85]

One of our club members here compu_85, his dad had one (an AWM sedan, 2003 or 4 I think).

,
Yup. It was a late 2004. AWM, 5 speed stick, 4motion. Dad sold it to a neighbor who drove it from MI to Calgary and back a bunch. Last I knew it had over 350,000 miles!

Its gear ratios would have been totally wrong for a TDI.

I ran into the same brick wall when I wanted to get the TCU tuned on our Touareg. There are Porsche tuners, but good luck getting any of them to talk to you, or consider doing any work for less than $2,000.

-J

 

[d24tdi]

The rear final drive ratios on 4motions are as follows:

1.8t 4mo 5mt: 3.89’
1.8t 4mo 5at: 4.11
V6 4mo 5at: 4.11
V6 4mo 6mt(01e): 4.11
W8 4mo 6mt(01e): 4.11
W8 4mo 5at: 3.89

Interesting info and good to know.

So the most key fact here (IMO) is that the 3.89 rear diff for the B5 Passat in the US exists not just in a standard trans 1.8T car, which are hens teeth -- but also in a W8 automatic car, which are rare too but not as rare and should be out there in parts yards.

That could allow the use of an 02X trans from a B7 car or an old 01A with TDI ratios, which might be the most "bolt in" setup for a US B5.

 

[caffeine]

d24tdi, you missed the part about the rear diff... it is NOT at all common stateside. I'd bet that manual 4Mo B5 cars sold here were probably extremely rare. I've only ever seen three. Total. Ever. One of our club members here compu_85, his dad had one (an AWM sedan, 2003 or 4 I think).

Time to do more research! The rear diffs are actually way easier to find than you think. The B5/5.5 Passat rear diff shares the diff case mounting points with the C5 A6 and B6/B7 A4. I've pulled 2 3.889 rear diffs (one for my BHW/02X Allroad swap and the other for a friend doing a B5.5 BHW/02X 4motion swap), one came out of a C5 2.7TT automatic car, and the other came from a B6 1.8T/5-speed car. The B6 diff will need the rear axle flanges swapped over but that's pretty basic. The C5 2.7TT auto diff will be a direct swap into my Allroad.