30A fuse for fans blowing after replacing fuse box and alternator cable

Genesis

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Yes.

But beware, the fans really are important if the engine gets hot. I suspect you have an intermittent short to ground inside one of the fans, which will absolutely blow the fuse instantly.

You have eliminated the clutch and the wire from the plug forward to the clutch (but not from the plug backward.)
 

P2B

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I suspect you have an intermittent short to ground inside one of the fans, which will absolutely blow the fuse instantly.
Could be, but it would be an odd failure mode given his fans work fine. The large fan in my sedan locked up a few weeks ago, produced a strong electrical burning smell in the cabin but did not blow the fuse - which was a bit disconcerting :(
 

Genesis

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A lock-up on low will not blow the fuse (the dropping resistor has enough resistance to prevent it) but might well start a nice fire in there. The good news is its metal and thus probably contained to the fan.

A lock-up on high is another matter as that is very close to a dead short -- which is what I suspect is going on here; an intermittent short on the input side of that dropping resistor in the case; when it makes contact that's a zero-ohm and poof.

That entire design is sort of crappy but I get it - a proper PWM controller and a sealed ECM motor costs materially more money and someone, I'm sure, look at it and said "its not worth the reduced failure rate to do that."
 

OlyTDI

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Okay, here's what I just did:

Disconnect each fan and then powered the individual leads on each fan while measuring the amp draw.

Here are the results (multiple tests on each fan with the fan stopped between each measurement) showing peak startup amperage:

Large Fan (pin 1 is ground)

Pin 2 = 16+ amps
Pin 3 = 19+ amps


Small Fan (pin 1 is ground)

Pin 2 = 13+ amps
Pin 3= 12+ amps

These are just the peak at startup -- not the running amperage. Assuming pin 3 is low speed for both fans, just the initial startup for the two fans on AC activation exceeds 30 amps. Add the compressor clutch coil and it would exceed the fuse rating right at startup.

Have I found a smoking gun here? Anyone know what the max startup surge amperage should be for these fans?

The fans are otherwise flawless -- both work perfectly on both speeds.

Thanks for continuing to help me with this!
 

P2B

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If the fans were the issue, I would expect you could reproduce the blown fuse by starting the fans repeatedly (using the AC button) without the engine running. Since that's not the case, and you have eliminated the compressor by disconnecting it and the FCM by replacing it, that would point to the harness between FCM and compressor.
 

OlyTDI

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Okay. I'm not sure how to test that for an intermittent short but will start to head scratch on that.

I did disconnect the small fan and could not make the fuse blow. I will reconnect it and disconnect the large fan and try -- just to be sure.

I have one week...
 

OlyTDI

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Could not make the fuse blow by disconnecting fans.

Put everything back together and turned AC on/off probably 25-30 times with engine running. Didn't blow a fuse. Then when doing it for the 31st or whatever time, it blew. I'm not clear how a shorted wire in a harness could not short so many times, then short a bunch of times, then not short a bunch of times.

I'll look into new harness prices.
 

J_dude

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Could not make the fuse blow by disconnecting fans.

Put everything back together and turned AC on/off probably 25-30 times with engine running. Didn't blow a fuse. Then when doing it for the 31st or whatever time, it blew. I'm not clear how a shorted wire in a harness could not short so many times, then short a bunch of times, then not short a bunch of times.

I'll look into new harness prices.
Intermittent short? I can’t remember, have you pulled the harness apart looking for chafed wires?
 

OlyTDI

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Yes, I did that tear everything apart and look for chafe in the process of doing it again. Battery and tray removed. All of the harnesses look good upon tedious examination. Most look newish. This is a NW vehicle that has been garaged its whole life. I also connect to each wire and look for ground continuity for wires that shouldn't have it, or, find continuity with the corresponding other end and try to make it not have continuity. Nothing. No breaks, no shorts to ground that I can tell.

The only thing I found was a chaffed wire at the 2 pin plug into the alternator. But there was nothing it could short to and it had chaffed from a plastic wire loom edge. Taped it up. I don't see how it could be related to this problem.

I'm really hesitant to start to undo all of the factory looms that are deeply seated and taped up well with that super sticky friction tape and expose all the wire runs. I don't want to create new problems.

I cannot find any wiring harnesses online from any Genuine VW sites for replacements.
 

P2B

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I have a boat with an intermittent short in the instrument panel I have been unable to track down. I gave up and installed a circuit breaker in place of the fuse - push to reset.
 

Genesis

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The large fan should not draw MORE amps on a start on low than high. While they might draw about the same, if it draws more that implies there's a shorted winding in the fan because the resistor is absolutely going to result in more resistance (even locked-rotor) than without it.

A DC motor has multiple commutator and winding segments. One shorted winding will blow the fuse on start when it stops in that position, but not necessarily otherwise as the short is intermittent enough with the fan moving that the fuse does not blow. It is still both underperforming AND will melt the fuse block over time.

The running amps should not exceed ~60% of the circuit rating or thereabouts.

Disconnect each fan and test individually -- connect ohmmeter to the leads across the "high" and ground pins. Rotate the fan by hand slowly and see if you have one segment where it reads "zero" and the others something greater than zero (the reading will be low with the fan not turning, but should not be zero.) If you find one segment (part of the rotation) materially lower than the others (especially if its zero) there you are; the fan has a shorted winding. If you do not find a problem there do it again on low and ground pins. Again, all segments as you rotate the fan should be roughly equal.
 

OlyTDI

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Okay, that's great Genesis -- I will do that tomorrow. Do you know off hand which pin is the high speed and which is the low? I was making an assumption that the higher amp draw was the low speed. I call pin 1 the ground. I could swear that when I powered both fans today both spun at the same speed on each of the pins. I will check that again tomorrow.

I just finished up for the day (12 hours) and when I finished buttoning up the car, I couldn't make it short.

I also ended up taking the wire looms apart about 12 inches or so back from the connectors to where they disappear into larger looms for:
-both fans,
-both FCM connectors,
-the plug at the battery top fuse box for the S180,
-the coolant temp sensor,
-the plug to the compressor clutch coil,
-and the 4 pin connector nearest the starter through which the clutch coil wire runs.

I stripped all of the tape off and inspected each wire from the connector back as far as I could without disassembling the entire car and tried to get continuity or short to ground on those that I could identify and find the other end. No joy -- everything looked great -- no chafed wires - so I taped up the wires into looms again. There are no burned or tarnished pins or connectors anywhere -- everything bright and shiny.

I'm hoping like hell that it's a fan like you've suggested with a specific shorted spot which would align with the intermittent behavior of the short.

I'll report the fan findings tomorrow!

Thanks a million, you guys!
 

J_dude

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I'm really hesitant to start to undo all of the factory looms that are deeply seated and taped up well with that super sticky friction tape and expose all the wire runs. I don't want to create new problems.
Yep, understandable.

Genesis is getting my hopes up now with the fan resistance, hopefully that’s your issue. 🙂
 

OlyTDI

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I have a boat with an intermittent short in the instrument panel I have been unable to track down. I gave up and installed a circuit breaker in place of the fuse - push to reset.
Don't get me started on the boat electrics...I had an entire 400ah AGM battery bank melt down in a runaway this sprig -- 4 60lb batteries welded into a solid mass that I had to chisel apart prior to reconstructing the entire house and starting battery system. I'm lucky the boat didn't burn down.

I'm real sick of 12v electrical problems!
 

OlyTDI

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Yep, understandable.

Genesis is getting my hopes up now with the fan resistance, hopefully that’s your issue. 🙂
Yeah, it seems that a variety of internal fan issues end up being the primary reason there are problems on that circuit on these cars. I think the fans are more likely than some worn wire that I cannot find in otherwise new-looking wire bundles. I put these fans in two years ago and perhaps that's what burned up the fuse box that I replaced this spring. It all sort of adds up...the fans I put in are TYC which I believe are Chinese and probably low end.
 

J_dude

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Yeah, it seems that a variety of internal fan issues end up being the primary reason there are problems on that circuit on these cars. I think the fans are more likely than some worn wire that I cannot find in otherwise new-looking wire bundles. I put these fans in two years ago and perhaps that's what burned up the fuse box that I replaced this spring. It all sort of adds up...the fans I put in are TYC which I believe are Chinese and probably low end.
Maybe find a set at the Pick-n-Pull? I replaced one of mine with a used unit a few years ago and it’s been doing alright so far.
 

OlyTDI

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That's a good idea. I just wonder about those as well in that there a lot of old Mk4 cars that are/were running around with burnt out fans!
 

irvingj

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Her's what may be a dumb suggestion, but a "trick" I've used on occasion: Is there any way to run a NEW wire -- or wires-- to the fans, temporarily, thereby bypassing the wiring harness? That might give you a definitive answer as to the "harness or fans" question.....

This has been (at your expense, unfortunately) a fascinating thread. Even I am getting to the point you might now be at, willing to sacrifice a great deal to get at and pinpoint this positively exasperating issue! GRRRR!! (Good luck!!)
 

Genesis

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Yeah, it seems that a variety of internal fan issues end up being the primary reason there are problems on that circuit on these cars. I think the fans are more likely than some worn wire that I cannot find in otherwise new-looking wire bundles. I put these fans in two years ago and perhaps that's what burned up the fuse box that I replaced this spring. It all sort of adds up...the fans I put in are TYC which I believe are Chinese and probably low end.
I replaced the fans in mine some ~10 years ago as the driver side one was dead. The first assembly I got (with shroud) lasted about 15 minutes. The second (which the local source immediately replaced with no problems) is still in there 10+ years later.

Virtually everything these days is C.R.A.P. so..... yeah.

If they do not run at DIFFERENT speeds on high and low they're definitely bad. The difference between the high and low speeds is NOT small.
 

OlyTDI

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Okay, I tested each fan's resistance with an ohm meter at both power pins. I did the tests very slowly - painfully slowly - such that the meter would stabilize after minute rotations. We're talking like 10 minutes to observe one rotation of the fan.

Each fan had around 0.6 - 1.0 ohms resistance at all positions. Nowhere could I find a spot with very small or no resistance. I did the test for each fan on each pin (so, each pin on each fan = 4 tests) and then did all of that again slowly rotating the other direction (4 more tests).

I could not find anything anomalous. EXCEPT, it seems that when I power the fans directly (using a power probe right at the fan's connector) they run at the same speed regardless of which of the two pins are powered on an individual fan. This occurs on both fans. So powering one pin turns the fan at a particular speed and powering the other turns the fan at that same speed. However, when I do the fan high speed jumper test at the coolant thermo switch (found here: Coolant Fan Testing), I get high speed fan operation that is distinctly higher than low speed.

I don't know what to make of this. Shouldn't I be getting a very different fan speed on one pin vs the other? This is why I couldn't figure out which was the high speed and low speed pins yesterday -- they both do the same thing.
 

Genesis

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Yes; the difference is NOT SMALL between low and high pins on the fan connector. The thermo switch does not go through the FCM (and its wiring) at all where but low speed does.

Those fans are borked one way or another; there is a VERY marked difference (not a small one) in their speed between low and high.
 

OlyTDI

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So should I be able to directly power the plug at the fan and get markedly different fan speeds at each of the two pins at each fan?

If yes, can you elaborate on the observation that I can get high speed by jumping at the thermo switch and that I get low speed at the fans when AC is on (or with the "check your fans" test)?

So I'm confused about two things -- 1) how I can elicit high fan speed by jumping the thermo switch connector but cannot get high speed by powering directly at the fans, and 2) how I have only low speed when powering each pin separately directly at the fan.

Thank you!
 

OlyTDI

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Yeah, so I just checked again:

-both fans run fine on low with AC on and cabin blower on
-both fans run on high with key on/AC off when jumped at thermo switch plug
-both fans run on low only when directly powered at each pin individually

Is high speed occurring at just one of the pins or are both pins supposed to be energized to achieve high speed. Okay, I see that pin 1 is high, pin 2 is low, and pin 3 is ground.

This is the key finding:
I can achieve fan high speed by jumping at the coolant temp switch but can only get low fan speed when directly powering the fans -- this makes no sense. I cannot seem to directly power the fans to run on high AT THE FAN! But, I can get both fans to run on high by jumping pin 2-3 of the coolant thermo switch. This means that the fans do actually work on high. But why then can't I make them do that by powering directly?

I've followed each step of the "Coolant Fan Testing" document and each test is good. The only anomoly to that entire testing protocol is that I cannot make the fans run on high directly -- otherwise each test is affirmed.
 
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Genesis

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Look here: https://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/View38.pdf

Each fan has one ground (T3) and two "hots" (T1 and T2); one (T1) goes directly to the motor, the other (T2) goes through a resistor first. If you measure RESISTANCE (do NOT jump voltage between these unprotected as that will get VERY hot VERY fast and burn up!) between the two hots (T1 and T2) with the plug disconnected (that is, you measure the FAN WIRE -- not the one from the chassis -- between the hots you should see a resistance there of about an ohm and NOT a dead short.) If there is no resistance then the fan's internal dropping resistor is shorted and the fan is borked. If you see an open then I don't see how your fans run on low at all because as you can see T1 and T2 are indeed connected with the dropping resistor between them. What you've reported so far is that the resistance between EITHER of the two drive pins (T1 or T2) and ground (T3) is identical. That is not correct; there should be about double the resistance to ground on the low speed pin compared to the high with the fan unplugged and testing the fan only at its connector.

The values you've posted for current drain also strongly imply those resistors are both shorted. The usual failure for a wire-wound resistor is open but a short is not impossible. A 1 ohm resistor across 12V will draw 12A and dissipate 12 watts (and get VERY hot!) Of course it isn't a dead short because the motor has resistance too but on the low tap the resistor is in series with the motor windings. You're not reporting that; you are reporting essentially identical resistance between EITHER tap and ground.

If the resistors are shorted inside the fan case then the only difference between "low" and "high" is the forward current drop in the FCM and the wiring. The HIGH circuit is designed to run on a 40A circuit (because it does) but trying to run a 40A load through a 30A fuse is going to pop it quite reliably. Note that if BOTH are energized some current DOES go down each but the total draw is effectively identical to that with the 30A circuit out-of-service as the motor, running directly off the supply, limits its current draw and speed by the commutator and effective phase lead/lag from the magnetic fields in the motor itself (and of course the drag generated by the fan moving air.) The 40A fusible link is sized to permit the fans to run on high with the engine OFF (entirely off) if required and called for by the thermoswitch in the radiator.

The values you posted for low range are too high; between those two fans on "low" the current levels you reported show you're pulling VERY close to 30A and quite-probably under some conditions over that. "Best guess" is you should be seeing somewhere around ~6-8A for each fan individually running on low.

When the coolant switch is closed the other (40A) fuse is used for high and your values are within that tolerance (and as-designed.) Thus your 40A fusible link has not blown.

Low is not a "somewhat slower" -- "low" is, well, quite low. Essentially doubling the resistance of the windings of a commutated DC motor will result in the motor running at about 25% of its full-voltage speed. It takes a few seconds for the fans to come up to speed on low and they're not loud at all with the key on -- you might not even hear them in the cabin. HIGH is unmistakable and sound like two box fans blasting away as you might expect. Its not a subtle difference. The only reason "low" exists at all is that the A/C condenser requires airflow through it as the compressor has no means of heat rejection other than through the condense and without airflow through it you'll cook the A/C compressor oil; in many conditions the radiator doesn't actually require airflow at all as the waste heat rejection of a diesel can be very low, particularly under low load (e.g. at idle.) This is why making sure "low" works is important as otherwise over time you're rather likely to destroy the A/C compressor.

What you've posted STRONGLY implies the dropping resistors in both fans are shorted. This can be verified by checking ohms on each fan between T1 and T2. If the dropping resistors are shorted (and I strongly suspect they are) then the fans are borked and should be replaced. You COULD put an external 1 ohm / 100W resistor in series with the "Low" lead on each fan instead but you'd have to figure out how to mount and get airflow to them lest they burn up which appears to me to be sort of silly considering that they're probably $10+ each and if the resistors in the fans are shorted I bet the motors have significant heat damage and don't have much longer to live.
 

OlyTDI

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Thank you so much, Genesis. I will study this and then conduct those measurements. It appears to be more complex than common sense might suggest at first look! Your explanation is superb and really very very much appreciated!
 

OlyTDI

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I have the data and it appears to support your idea that the fans are "borked" or on their way there.

First, the resistance as measured between T1 and T2 of each fan at their power plug (fan wire):

- Small fan: Between 0.2 and 0.3 ohms

- Large fan: Between 0.3 and 0.4 ohms

Second, the resistance measured between ground and each power pin at the power plug (fan wire) for each fan:

- Small fan: Between T1 and T3 = 0.4 ohms
- Small fan: Between T2 and T3 = 0.3 ohms

-Large fan: Between T1 and T3 = 0.3 ohms
-Large fan: Between T2 and T3 = 0.3 - 0.4 ohms

Third, the running amperage and startup inrush of each fan motor (when powered directly with 12v from a power probe):

-Small fan:

T1, the fan draws 5.75 amps while running / startup inrush is 12+ amps
T2, the fan draws 4.7 amps while running / startup inrush is 13 amps

-Large fan:

T1, the fan draws 11 amps running / startup inrush is 18+ amps
T2, the fan draws 7 amps running / startup inrush is 16+ amps


According to your detailed write up, there should be about an ohm when doing the measurement at the fan motors between the hot legs. As you can see, there is about 0.25 and 0.35 ohms on the two fans respectively. Too low, right?

Additionally, I should have about twice the resistance between ground and T2 (low) that occurs between ground and T3 (high) on each motor. As you can see the resistance is the same for both legs on both motors and is quite low.

The running current for each fan appears okay. I would think that the startup draw is probably okay as well but I should note that when I posted those amperage values earlier, it was for that initial inrush spike at startup. I have repeated those and included them above in this post but added the "while running" amperage values once the motors were up to speed.

I agree that low fan speed is a lot lower than high fan speed! When I jump the coolant thermo switch and run the fans on high, it sounds like an air boat. Your explanation about why I wasn't able to power the fans on high at the fan wire was super helpful. I though I was going crazy! That 40 amp circuit is the answer.

So I guess the big questions are: do those resistance readings confirm borked fans? And equally as important, do any of these readings support an explanation of the intermittent blowing of the 30 amp S180 fuse?

I would say yes to the first question based on your explanation. I am uncertain about the answer to the second question!

You're a gem, Genesis -- never would have gotten this far without your input.
 

Genesis

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I believe so, yes. I don't have easy access to my MkIV's fan connectors (I'd have to pull the Panzer pan to get to them, etc.) but when I turn the key to "ON" with the fan switch turned on and A/C button pushed the fans start quite slowly and run notably slowly -- they're running, but not very fast at all.

Running amps on low should be ~1/2 that of on high. Startup surge is tricky; you need a peak-reading meter, which most do poorly. I have a clamp-on that does do this but its only somewhat decent on DC circuits (MUCH better on A/C); the problem with DC circuits is that nulling out stray magnetic fields is tougher (A/C is easy to measure since its exactly the same 180 degrees out of phase for each cycle.)

I had fun with Dorman replacements in my MkIV; the first one, as I related previously, lasted about an hour. The second is still in the car 10 years later so...... yeah, I wouldn't be even SLIGHTLY surprised given that they're Chineesium.
 

OlyTDI

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Do you mean "yes" to both questions: fans crapping out AND the ability to blow the fuse?

Yeah, I used a clamp on and just read the blip of the highest start amperage on startup. But it was consistent over several readings.

I hear you on the belly plate -- I've got the A4 Defender on mine and have to pull it every time I need to do something under there. Thankfully, I have a lift and the car has been on it for days now...and more than once during this adventure. I'll be glad to get this behind me.

The fans I have in there are TYC branded. I don't know that one brand is better than another. IDParts sells those and Nissans, Behr, or VW. Behr and TYC are lower tier price and Nissans mid-range. VW will set you back $800 for a pair. Which would you choose?

I last bought the two TYC fans (Amazon) already mounted on the frame and simply pulled them off of the frame and swapped them to the frame I have already mounted in the car. I have some mods that take up enough room such that I cannot pull the whole frame with fans mounted on them...so it's a bit of a contortionist's act to do the fan replacement. These lasted a year and a half before the melting of the fuse box and the current dilemma.
 

Genesis

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I just bought the Dorman setup with the shroud, dismounted the big one (which was the one that was dead on low) and swapped it w/the spider, leaving the shroud alone. As I noted before the first one lasted an hour or so, the second is now about 10 years in and is working fine. The advantage on the parts store was that when the first one puked almost-immediately I took it back there and they gave me another one. Spend more? Well, that's up to you; when mine failed it was summer and I wanted it fixed NOW, so the parts-store Chineesium option was what I selected.
 
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