3.0 cata failed engine

[ktmkris]

I have a 2012 q7 tdi at the Audi dealer with 113,500 miles with a engine failure.
I took the car there with a bad fuel knock on passenger bank.

Tech said it was a cracked/leaking exhaust manifold. Replaced/repaired and noise still there on startup.

a weak goes by.

Tech then tells me Audi said partially tear down engine. Claims passenger bank has jumped time. Recommends to Audi engine replacement.

A weak goes by

audi now ask tech to tear down engine further to see if bearings were oil starved. Tech says they were good.

a week goes by

tech says Audi has opened litigation and that long block replacement is covered under warranty. Says there are 0 cata engines available and it will have to be ordered from Germany(30 days to ship). Audi is supposed to respond within 48 hours with approval.

There has been another week without response.

today I am told it is still in litigation, that the new epa approved tunes and dpf setups have caused the 3.0tdi to go from a good engine to a trash engine.

Was told the engine replacement will be well over $22,000 and not to expect it to happen. Manager said Audi will just buy the car back instead of replace engine.

here is the question: has anyone else experienced this? (Basically a second buyback) Did you feel you were treated fairly?

I have been 30 days without my Audi, no loaner or rental provided.

also if car is bought back can I trust another 3.0 whether gen 1 or gen 2?

tia

 

[PRY4SNO]

Loaner has to be provided under the terms of the dieselgate warranty.

I'd also think that you'd have to consent to a buyback vs repair.

Take it to Audi of America if you haven't already. Otherwise there is a law firm on standby to deal with these kinds of issues, I'd retain them to sort out this mess.

 

[ktmkris]

I was told today they don’t have a loaner, I was also told to go rent a car and they would take care of it at the end. Without any end in sight I don’t trust that. I have a mk4 tdi I can drive. But it doesn’t change the fact the warranty says otherwise

 

[showdown 42]

It sounds like they are pushing you into litigation. They need to reimburse you the fair value of the car . I would then move on to something else. I'm surprised VW/Audi would go this route with their premier car.

 

[TurboABA]

If they don't have a loaner, they go rent you a car. Many of us have gone through that scenario.... Some drove a rental for months and months.

 

[TurboABA]

Tech then tells me Audi said partially tear down engine. Claims passenger bank has jumped time. Recommends to Audi engine replacement.

I'd like to raise the BS flag and waive it hard.
Your dealer and\or tech are clowns.
Timing chains don't jump.

 

[oilhammer]

Timing chains don't jump? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!! I have several cars here that say otherwise, LMAO!!!!

And VAG engine chains are some of the WORST.

To the OP: the last engine I waited for (that ALSO jumped its chain), it took about six weeks to get. It was a CAEB 2.0L engine, for a 2014 Allroad. There have been a LOT of supply issues lately. I have another one here, a 2015 Passat, that also has no replacement engines available in the country, but the customer cannot afford to fix it anyway.

 

[TurboABA]

When you're done laughing, could you please educate me how one cam sprocket jumps in that scenario?
I'm certain that you have any least 12 examples sitting around right now probably. I'm eager to learn so that I no longer post information that conflicts your experience.

 

[oilhammer]

I'm not sure I can explain something so blatantly common and obvious. If you have any lengthy experience with bicycles, dirt bikes, or chainsaws, you may have the basic understanding of how a single roller chain operates. When the sprockets wear, the individual chain links bunch up and relax (chain stretch), and that constant motion across the sprockets further wears them, which makes the bunching of links worse, which further wears the sprockets, until eventually the sprocket teeth are just pointy little nubs that can no longer grab the chain links, and the chain just jumps right over the top.

The CATA engine has FOUR chains, I'm sure the OP's engine has ALL the sprockets worn, but the one that finally have up is the one that caused the final blow to the engine.

Before the very first CATA engine left the factory, VAG already had DECADES of poor timing chain drive systems. Anyone that has been around the VR6 knows that. And they only have two chains.

There is actually a class action lawsuit on the VAG EA888 engine for timing chain system failures, and again, this is old news (that engine family debuted in 2008... and before 2009, they already were chucking chains).

VAG timing chain failure - Google Search

 

[TurboABA]

I'm not sure I can explain something so blatantly common and obvious.

You did just fine. I was hasty in my reading and did manage to miss the CATA part, so I'll just have to take it on the chin as a result. I will stand corrected and agree that this scenario could happen on the 4 chain system as it's more feasible (but still quite unusual at such low milage unless the tensioner failed) vs the 2nd gen engine that I was thinking about. Luckily I don't suffer for the superiority complex that others do, so I will be fine once I cry myself to sleep a few times.

 

[oilhammer]

The newer V6s have two chains, so certainly less fail points, but I doubt it will be the ridiculously long lasting engines that the 4cyl VAG diesels are. But I also doubt most people who bought the V6 TDI models new will have them that long, either.

 

[ktmkris]

Was told this morning that audi has asked for a complete tear down of the engine. That the dealership has a authorization code for repair.

Now we just have to come to terms for a rental. They claim no loaners are available and they want me to rent a car and submit for repayment. I will atand my ground as i don't have 2-4k to tie up for a month or longer as I am a small business owner struggling like everyone else.

Turboaba and oilhammer, The dealer claims bottom inch or so of passenger side chain tensionors plastic had broken off and fallen into the engine. I have a video of car idling if i can get it to upload. What i don't understand is why did i not see this issue on my vagcom or my autel. What i found was injector 5 was flowing 8x the fuel as the other 5 injectors.

The timing chains have always been silent on this car. My parents have two gen 2 2015 q5 tdi's and theirs make more noise on start up than this engine did. My mothers is in the 50k range and it is noisy nearly every start but only last 4 seconds or so, my fathers is in the 80k range and it is hit and miss. All three cars have been given on time oil changes with correct spec amsoil.

 

[TurboABA]

As per our exchanges above, the 2nd gen motors, have an improved\simplified timing system. Only 2 chains vs 4 on your 1st gen. Just be happy that you're getting a fresh engine at no cost to you... even if you have to rock your own MK4 for a few months.... I'd still consider it a win.

 

[greengeeker]

There's a cat on youtube that seems to specialize in timing chains (seems to be just about every video he posts). Good background on the overall process:

 

[06SpiceRedTDI]

Are you sure the noise isn't a failed injector seal causing it to vent the compression and exhaust out the hole above the exhaust manifold. This would sound exactly like a manifold leak, but replacing the manifold would not fix this.

 

[ktmkris]

Are you sure the noise isn't a failed injector seal causing it to vent the compression and exhaust out the hole above the exhaust manifold. This would sound exactly like a manifold leak, but replacing the manifold would not fix this.

I am not. I personally can’t understand how the car ran perfectly fine. I have had numerous scanners on it. Obd11, vagcom and a autel mp808 maxi pro.

I would watch injector values and believe all the noise was from a failed injector/failing cp4.

when I took the car the the Audi dealership no one cared to hear what I had to say. I am by no means an authority on tdi’s. But I usually can find my way around a repair.

 

[oilhammer]

There seems to be a disconnect here. An engine management problem is very different from an engine mechanical problem. At this stage, if they've got the engine torn apart, then we are committed to a mechanical one.

 

[TurboABA]

It almost seems like a bunch of compounding problems\issues.... a potentially stuck injector, a damaged HPFP, a broken chain slide, a possible injector seal, etc. Regardless, if he's getting a fresh engine at no cost to him, he's golden.

 

[ktmkris]

Audi has kept holding off on the the warranty. I have had every excuse under the sun why they couldn't approve it yet. Supposedly audi kept asking for more tear down. Dealership claims they asked 4 times for new engine telling me my old on had jumped time and was trashed.

Fast forward today, same guy calls from dealership and states, good news i will have your car finished in about two weeks. I asked what was the final diagnoses. Tech stated car jumped timing on bank one and audi asked them to re-time the motor. I asked does this mean i will be getting new chains (all 4 of them) and new guides and tensioner.

The tech said audi will only replace the one chain that jumped timing, you will get a new tensioner and we will replace the broken guide.

I never believed the engine had failed as quoted by the dealership.

But is 1 chain, 1 guide and 1 tensioner a fair repair for a 10 year old vehicle with 113,xxx miles?
Are these chains not going to be stretched? or the wear from the other guides not going to cause issue?

Is this a legitimate repair or a bandaid to get me past warranty?

 

[oilhammer]

They'll only want to replace what the have to. Me personally, I'd ask the manager if you could pay for the remainder of the parts yourself (on a separate ticket), and have the tech install them (and offer to pay any additional labor on that same separate ticket). It is dumb, it sucks, but that may be your only way to get a better repair out of the deal. 90% of the labor should be on VAG's dime already.

 

[Windex]

Second this. If they are hauling the engine out to change the one chain/tensioner/guides, then get them to change the rest while they are in there. Pay them separately for the additional parts and small ampunt of incremental labour.

 

[ktmkris]

thanks guys. I had read on other threads about the the degrees of phase on a engine with stretched chains. I don't want to have a vehicle with 6 degrees on one bank and 2 degrees on the other. Doesn't seem like a recipe for success. Also seems like that would be a poorly running engine.

 

[oilhammer]

The ECU compensates for chain stretch (there is actually a value in there you can watch) but it can only do so much, and if one side failed, it stands to reason the other side isn't far behind. They've both been subjected to the same conditions since new, so....

 

[showdown 42]

The heavy work has been done if the engine is broken down. Chains and tensioners are peanuts compare to having to break down the engine again to do the same job in the future. Audi should have suggested this for the customer's benefit.

 

[Leroy71]

As per our exchanges above, the 2nd gen motors, have an improved\simplified timing system. Only 2 chains vs 4 on your 1st gen. Just be happy that you're getting a fresh engine at no cost to you... even if you have to rock your own MK4 for a few months.... I'd still consider it a win.
[/QUO

As per our exchanges above, the 2nd gen motors, have an improved\simplified timing system. Only 2 chains vs 4 on your 1st gen. Just be happy that you're getting a fresh engine at no cost to you... even if you have to rock your own MK4 for a few months.... I'd still consider it a win.

You seem to understand this issue well and have a 2014 Touareg TDI like me. I have a 142K miles with no emission mods. I hear a little clatter for a few seconds upon starting it but usually only when its somewhat warm. Should I be replacing my timing chains, tensioners and water pump?

 

[ktmkris]

The heavy work has been done if the engine is broken down. Chains and tensioners are peanuts compare to having to break down the engine again to do the same job in the future. Audi should have suggested this for the customer's benefit.

I was told Audi will replace failed part and that is it. The audi dealer is not willing to even allow for me to pay to replace other chains and they said Audi is doing me a favor as this is not a diesel gate warrantable item.

My response was don’t fix it then. I still have a year and a half warranty left.

At this point it has become a pissing match. Dealer will not back down. Dealer states they don’t have to give me a rental or loaner. Audi USA customer support said I do get a rental. But every time they talk to dealer they said it was denied.

I have went as far as contacting the representing counsel from the dieselgate court case and have pretty much been told there isn’t much they can do to help. The judge agreed to terms of warranty, but didn’t put anyone in charge of policing it.

So the line that says disagreement must be met in favor of customer isn’t worth the piece of paper it is written on.

I have literally been 55 days without my q7 with what they are quoting as 14-21 more days to wait. I love my vw’s but now wish I would of just bought a 4Runner.

 

[PRY4SNO]

Honestly, at that point... I'd go to the local paper.

Shame on that dealership, and shame on AoA.

Abysmal behaviour, all around.

 

[showdown 42]

You need to post the dealer you are working with so other people here will avoid this dealer. I had an issue with an Audi dealer with a bad water pump I complained about while under warranty which they said was fine ,3 mos later after the warranty expired they said it had to be replaced . Fixed the pump,sold the car and never bgt another Audi. I have since bgt 7 new non Audi cars. Smart move by Audi, NOT.

 

[ktmkris]

UPDATE!
Been quite a while since I did a update. Our 2012 Audi Q7 is still at the Audi dealership. In a week or so it will be 5 months.

I won my small battle over the timing chains and finally had Audi agree to replace them all since they would not replace the engine.

isuue now is parts finally came in and engine was retimed and installed back in q7. Upon the startup of the engine there was still a noticeable knock.

Technician claims after removing valve cover he found that both cams on bank one had wiped lobes. This is the same engine they claimed was disassembled and was in great shape minus jumping timing.

so now they are doing a bank 1 camshaft swap.

has anyone had a 3.0 cata with cam issues? Ihave Replaced cams on the old pd motors, this has me thinking the cam damage is a symptom of something else.

really weird thing is I only use Mann filters, amsoil euro spec every 8-10k and fuel and air filters every other change.

my diagnostic shows two injectors on bank one that are way out of spec.

my Thinking is engine jumped timing from either too much fuel In cylinder, or when engine jumped timing I bent a valve.