270bhp on stock injectors? (PD130 ASZ)

Claudio-FR

Active member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Location
Italy
TDI
Ibiza 6L 130 PD
Claudio- FR - thanks for your input but 44 degree duration is very high. Must be VERY smokey as when i had "only" 40 degree the smoke was embarrassing to the point i didnt want to WOT when someone was behind me.

Jabba are respect tuner in the UK for VAG and their workmanship is very good so I do not see them releasing a car on the uk that looks like this for eg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSVFwKlp3Os

If you want to learn why its bad to run such high duration read this http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266791&highlight=520cc

Post 3 says it all really.
Very very low smoke!! The car has dbilas dynamics regrind camshaft that reduce a lot the smoke and then there is also a 2260V at 2.1 bar
 

Bobby Singh

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Location
England,Middlesex
TDI
Audi 3.0 TDI
Here you go for those that havent read Alex's view on high duration:

With 39 degrees duration you are just exceeding effective injection window by far.
If you have "big balls" you can set start of injection to 27-30 degrees which will have great effect to peak cylinder preesure, stressing the head gasket...
Now, lets take the case that your tuner has set the SOI (If even touched....) to 27 degrees, then, with 39 degrees of duration you inject up to 12 degreees PTDC.
These 12 degrees are way to long, at this point the piston is on its way down already, loosing compression rapidly, so all that fuel what comes in is kind of useless in terms of power, it will almost only create heat and even more stress to your engine/turbocharger and make the tune smokey.
If you look at efficiency of combustion process, you will come to the summary, that injecting longer than 5-5.5 degrees PTDC is useless for combustion.
You may take a look at mappings from 150hp ARL TDI and compare to the mapping of 160hp BPX/BUK TDI and see what OEM engineers have done to get "only" 10hp more out of identic injectors.
And, as a second, you can also proof this by doing runs with your car while taking the time.
Make sure to have identic enviromental conditions, and do runs with both durations,try longer duration than 5 degrees, you will see that you wont be reasonable faster with the "extra fuel" you inject in comparison to when you end at 5 degrees....
Regards, Alex
 

ArturCosta

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Location
Portugal
TDI
Audi A4 Avant 1996 Silver
What Alex says is true about efficiency but about power not that much.
You can get a lot more power on PDTC injection but a lot less efficient.

BTW , I have seen a PD doing 46º duration last week :D I love the tuners over here always amazing me.. never thought 46 was possible lol
 

chapelhill

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Location
Scotland
TDI
03 Ibiza pd13- 2260vk Turbo etc.., Merc E280cdi
BTW , I have seen a PD doing 46º duration last week :D I love the tuners over here always amazing me.. never thought 46 was possible lol
Anyone know what the lift profile versus rotation angle for the pd injector cam lobes is as that would have to be a limiting factor?
 
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Pieman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Location
Sunny Suffolk, UK
TDI
Audi A4 B8 & Audi A6 C6
Anyone know what the lift profile versus rotation angle for the pd injector cam lobes is as that would have to be a limiting factor?
X2


And what cam is best to change over too??

Also if you have a good flowing head is a cam needed??
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Anyone know what the lift profile versus rotation angle for the pd injector cam lobes is as that would have to be a limiting factor?
In portugal they seem to have never ending cam lobes if they still believe to make useable power with 47° of duration and little to none (sometimes even in the wrong direction) adjusted start fo injection
 

ChippedNotBroken

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Location
Pocono\'s, NYC
TDI
Jetta A4 1999.5 Green
bhp, WHP, DSP!!!
None of it means horse squat, except on relative terms when tuning or upgrading equipment. The only metric that matters is the RMP (rubber meets pavement) values.
Show me what the car can do on a track and I'll be impressed.
 

richards919

Active member
Joined
May 9, 2013
Location
South Africa
TDI
VW Polo 9N3 PD130 + BT
Hi guys,

Just found this thread and thought I'd revive it.

I am running:
- KKK BV50 @ 1.7 bar
- Stock Injectors
- Big FMIC
- WMI @ 50:50 - (which only makes 4whp & 10nm difference)
- 30 degree SOI
- 44 degree Injection Duration

And I am making 220 WHP and 420NM. Dyno is completely zero correction factors - pure wheel power. And running 14.28s 1/4 mile @ 162km/h

Dyno video

As you can see in the video, there is minimal smoke once in boost. I too have heard of and seen cars with similar setups making a huge amount more power. 280 WHP on the same dyno. Although this is with a whole lot more smoke.

How far do people tend to push their durations on stock injectors? And aside from the inefficiencies (diminishing returns of large durations) and higher EGTs, what are the downsides to pushing the durations further?
 
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Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I would def invest in injectors and run around 2 bar boost with more normal SOI, like 27 deg at 4k rpm with 35-36 deg duraton max
 

richards919

Active member
Joined
May 9, 2013
Location
South Africa
TDI
VW Polo 9N3 PD130 + BT
I would def invest in injectors and run around 2 bar boost with more normal SOI, like 27 deg at 4k rpm with 35-36 deg duraton max
The plan is definitely to go with bigger nozzles. The problem is that they are hard to find in South Africa and extremely expensive to import. What are good places to buy from?

And what size should I go? +80%?

I'm happy with a little less boost for now - keeps the turbo from stressing too much and my injectors are struggling to keep up now anyway.
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
50% nozzles will get 280hp or so with reasonable duration, 80's will do 300hp+

I'm sure your smoke will be vastly reduced, 44degrees is a lot, the most i have seen someone run (not my tune!) is 47degrees, car made 240hp and TONS of smoke, SOI was stock on this too. What is more concerning is the fact this is a 'kit' sold by another tuner that does not believe bigger injectors are required!!
 

K.I.T.T.

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Location
Europe
TDI
PD75
Re: Head gasket, what I was getting at was PCP. Not so much boost. 30 deg SOI is really advanced imo. Plus, Injecting past ~8 deg PTDC causes efficiency to go down the drain. Definitely invest in some bigger nozzles.

Ash
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........

JTT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Location
Germany
TDI
ARL
270hp :)

ran mine with 30° SOI and 47,6° duration, not that big problem at all.

but the gain from 40-47° was quite minor so I dont think you can get more than 230hp out of stock injectors.
 

richards919

Active member
Joined
May 9, 2013
Location
South Africa
TDI
VW Polo 9N3 PD130 + BT
To revive this thread once more...

I am in the process of sourcing some Bosio R783's and PD150 head bolts. Once all in, what sort of effect should the 30% extra fuel have on the SOI's? Running them at stock PD160 values - would that be safe, or is that a bit too advanced? i.e +- 27 deg?
 

Sheppy

Active member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Location
Worcestershire
TDI
Polo GT TDi, 2260, Stock injectors, 225bhp


Skillaturbos own car

Stock injectors + GTB2060VKLR
294bhp (measured on multiple dynos - this was the lowest reading)

Discuss
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
Lol, bet that dyno kicks out plenty of World records
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
And I wrote that before the post was edited to show the graph.
 

texas

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Location
denton tx
TDI
2005 mk4 jetta tdi, 99 beetle tdi, 2002 beelte tdi
How thin are stock injector stretched? That's alot considering most people say your limited to 230bhp with arl injectors
 

numbnuts

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
sunny brum uk
TDI
mk2 golf
Wow there seem to be quite a lot of high dyno readings I have seen recently
I am quite happy to put my car up against this car on a private road of course all for fun of course
His makes more power apparently
 

bagnall007

Active member
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Location
Wales
TDI
130pd MK4 Golf
There is actually a video of this car doing a 1/4 mile run showing the speedo, it looks slightly slower than what my car is but im only judging on speedo timings with stopwatch from 60-100mph, my car has a gtb2260 setup with 80% injectors and pulled 254bhp one set of rollers and 272bhp on another around 5 months later, dyno numbers really are meaningless unless used when changing out parts for comparison and using same dyno.
 

bagnall007

Active member
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Location
Wales
TDI
130pd MK4 Golf
The car did do a 13.2 at santa pod recently though with the stock injector setup....
 
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