225 MPG Diesel/Plug-In Hybrid Kit Car

AndyH

Registered Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=14657

http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

http://www.fev-now.com/index.php?page=xr3_hybrid

http://www.fev-now.com/index.php?page=XR3pics Images

3-cylinder diesel driving front wheels, Li/ion battery pack and electric motor for rear wheel drives this home-built 3-wheeler.

"The XR3 is a parallel plug-in hybrid. The driver can select between three driving modes: 1) diesel only, 2) battery-electric only, and 3) a parallel mode where both systems operate in piggyback fashion — with the electric system used mainly to improve acceleration capabilities..."

In 1981, Riley has used one of the Kubota 3-cylinder diesels for his Urba Centurion to achieve 128mpg.

This would be a great place to hang a 3-cylinder TDI from a Lupo! :D
 

SnowCub

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Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Location
Bedford, MA
TDI
2013 S350 BlueTec
I signed up for their early notification list. I'll post up if I ever get any actual information.
 

MicroRacer

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Sep 16, 2005
Location
Reelsville, IN
TDI
Looking
I also signed up for the early notification list. I guarantee you if I make the XR3 it will have the Lupo 1200cc TDI Diesel engine in it. I haven't been able to find the weight specs on the 1.2L, but I bet it doesn't weight much if any more than the D902. In the XR3 I believe you are still talking 100mpg in strait diesel mode probably 150mpg in Hybrid mode. Good enough for me and then I wouldn’t worry about getting run over or cruising across the country. I have seen where BleachedBora could get the Lupo engine for 3750 which I believe is cheaper than the D902. I wish I had the money to attach this project head on, but alas it will have to wait until finances are in better shape. This is my dream car (bike).
 

MicroRacer

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Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Location
Reelsville, IN
TDI
Looking
RED said:
Thanks! From that link I seen the 1.4L Toyota Diesel weighs in at 99kg and 74 HP (Europeans get all the good stuff). The D902 weighs 158lbs. 60lbs for better than 40hp more seems like a good trade off to me. Even if I stay with the Industrial diesel engines the Briggs comes in at 34HP (VS 24: Costs less also) at 196lbs for a weight penalty of 38lbs for 10 more hp. My main concern is to have enough power to run AC and Heat, plus I want the XR3 to be fun to drive.
 

MicroRacer

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Location
Reelsville, IN
TDI
Looking
TdiAvenger said:
very interesting.....lol, any idea of 0-60 with power going to all 3 wheels?
It's all theoretical right now (plans aren’t out yet), but I have seen estimates of anywhere form 8 to 13 seconds with the 24HP D902 Kubota.
 

mrspindlelegs

Active member
Joined
Jun 28, 2004
Location
Shelbyville, IN
TDI
Golf TDI, 2004, Reflex Silver
The concept is neat but how does one get around all the BS from the EPA and the NTSB? If you want to put a Lupo 1.2 L TDI in the car, how can you get it into the country given that it hasn't been approved by the EPA? What about crash testing?

Obviously, there is a lot I don't know about regulations regarding registration and licensing of Kit Cars. We need to know these answers first.

Note: I think it would be really interesting to put a PD100 TDI in a light kit car and see what happens performance wise.

Mr. Spindlelegs
 

MicroRacer

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Location
Reelsville, IN
TDI
Looking
mrspindlelegs said:
The concept is neat but how does one get around all the BS from the EPA and the NTSB? If you want to put a Lupo 1.2 L TDI in the car, how can you get it into the country given that it hasn't been approved by the EPA? What about crash testing?

Obviously, there is a lot I don't know about regulations regarding registration and licensing of Kit Cars. We need to know these answers first.
The XR3 is a 3 wheeled car and in most states is considered a motorcycle and would not be subject to crash testing. Before I start on anything I plan on taking the plans to the DMV to see what the rules are for my state.

The 1.2L Lupo engine can be got into the US. I don’t know the particulars, but I found this out in the following thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=170785&highlight=Lupo

Also here is a link to 3 wheeled vehicles that I found interesting:

http://www.ccpc.net/~jaho/3wheel2.html
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
I've been following this site for a while and have been impressed with Robert's write-ups and thorough knowledge of vehicle dynamics.

I think the time may be right for introduction of 3-wheeled vehicles. I would be willing to lose 2 seats and a trunk for such astonishing fuel economy and fun factor. I would simply rent a truck when needed.

However, I have read his write ups on vehicle stability and dynamics of 3-wheeled vehicles and he makes it clear that a leaning 3 wheeler (with 2 in front) is inherently nearly impossible to roll...it is simply very very safe, especially with active lean control. Even with manual leancontrol (driver controlled), it still has the cornering limit of the frame geometry, which means it will out-turn all 4-wheeled vehicles and anything short of a performance motorcycle. Plus it has 50% more traction or greater than a motorcycle...best of all worlds, AFAIC.

So I signed up for the update. If they offer a leaning version I will sell my Tdi to finance the build out and stuff a Lupo or Kubota into it.

Here is a pic from http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm showing their current chassis mule:




It's interesting that front suspension was chosen as independent airbags; but I suppose it makes sense from a compactness and adjustability standpoint.



Images borrowed shamelessly from R. Q. Riley design consultants. All credit goes to them.
 
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hevster1

Vendor
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Nov 14, 2005
Location
Columbia NJ
TDI
98 NB
nicklockard said:
I think the time may be right for introduction of 3-wheeled vehicles. I would be willing to lose 2 seats and a trunk for such astonishing fuel economy and fun factor. I would simply rent a truck when needed.

However, I have read his write ups on vehicle stability and dynamics of 3-wheeled vehicles and he makes it clear that a leaning 3 wheeler (with 2 in front) is inherently nearly impossible to roll...it is simply very very safe, especially with active lean control. Even with manual leancontrol (driver controlled), it still has the cornering limit of the frame geometry, which means it will out-turn all 4-wheeled vehicles and anything short of a performance motorcycle. Plus it has 50% more traction or greater than a motorcycle...best of all worlds, AFAIC.

So I signed up for the update. If they offer a leaning version I will sell my Tdi to finance the build out and stuff a Lupo or Kubota into it.

It's interesting that front suspension was chosen as independent airbags; but I suppose it makes sense from a compactness and adjustability standpoint.
Considering I have seen people flip mid 80's MR2's anything can be rolled and a 3 wheeler is less stable than 4. That is a fact.
Currently Can-Am and KTM are both doing vehicles similar to this as performance vehicles. The KTM has 4 wheels, the Can am has 3.
The issue I have with plug-in hybrids of any type is you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Also the technology is far from proven as it causes the batteries to operate at capacity drastically shortening their life.
Air is a very poor suspension medium for a number of reasons.
It MAY be subject to crash standards and it WILL be subject to emission standards. The "i'll just stuff a Lupo engine or kubota engine in it" doesn't work. You still have to get the registration papers for it and as such if the engine is unapproved for motor vehicle use you will have a very hard time getting it done. Depending on your state it may even be impossible.
You have to build it yourself from plans. Unless you really know what you are doing AND have the tools and shop to do it in, it is a daunting task. One or 2 small mistakes and you can have a completely unstable vehicle. Remember alignment is measured in degrees not inches.
The old kit cars were based on running gear which already existed. The current ones such as the AC cobra replica are most times registered as antiques in order to get them around emissions standards. This cuts annual mileage down to about 1-3k per year. If you want regular registration the vehicle MUST pass emissions regs. They do vary from state to state. Just because you want to use diesel power does NOT mean you won't be subject to regs.
It is an interesting concept as are the Can-Am and KTM vehicles but from a practicality point it just doesn't work for most people.
I wish them the best of luck and the same to anyone who attempts to build one.
 
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