.205's or Upsolute?

Chasone

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2001
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah
TDI
2001, Golf, Red
.205\'s or Upsolute?

I really want the upsolute power! But with two turbo failures and a new engine I'm not sure if I'm ready to upsolute.

My question is would .205 injectors give me something close to (or equal to) the upsolute chip? And wouldn't it be safer for the turbo (the source of all of my problems), since there would be no increased boost?

Mickey - don't you have .205 w/o upsolute? Anyone else compared this?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 

Joe Rappa

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 1999
Location
Central NY
TDI
None at the moment
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Hi Chasone,
I drove Ted's(Ted_Grozier I believe) new Golf at the last Mich. GTG. It has the .205s in it with no other mods. It ran very nicely. From a performance standpoint, it works well. I got to ride in several modified TDIs that day while performing emission testing, and Ted's car was quite comparable performance-wise, and had the lowest NOx emissions I've seen yet (under 100ppm at 60 mph cruise).
My 2 cents.
Joe Rappa
 

TDI Believer

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Joined
Sep 20, 1999
Location
Charles Town,WV
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

It is very unlikely that the Upsolute chip + .205's will hurt your engine. Either the chip or the injectors alone are a good mod. I've got 20K miles running chip + injectors with no complaints other than smoke. Prior to that I ran the chip + tuning box for about 15K miles. No hint of trouble from my engine ever.

Here's where I think you can get into trouble:

- Messing with the VNT adjuster
- Trying to fool sensors (MAF, MAP, IAT in particular)
- Chip + Injectors + Tuning Box

Taken alone, the safest of the three fueling mods is probably the injectors.

The way you drive also has a lot do do with it. Just because you build a fast car doesn't mean you have to constantly drive like Mario Andretti. Most of my driving is spent cruising down the highway at light throttle. My car does get two good thrashings per day however, climbing the mountain to Snicker's Gap at WOT in 5th. That mountain belongs to MY TDI!
 

TDI Believer

Responsible For Global Warming
Joined
Sep 20, 1999
Location
Charles Town,WV
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

The .184s come standard in the 90hp TDI with manual transmission. The 90hp TDI with automatic comes with .158s, mated with a larger (11mm v 10MM) injection pump. If you put the .184s (from a manual TDI) in an auto TDI, is has a similar effect as putting the .205s in a manual TDI.

Either way, you get about 20hp. So far I don't think anyone has mated the .205s with the 11mm pump from the automatic. Rumor has it Turbo Steve's new engine will be equipped this way. That will be worth even more hp, though I'll be curious to see how much smoke is produced from that combination.
 

TDI Believer

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Joined
Sep 20, 1999
Location
Charles Town,WV
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Monaco VW in the UK. I think most of the folks who have them bought them there. They take Visa and ship via standard mail. You'll get a nice big padded envelope with pictures of the Queen on the stamps.

E-mail: MonacoVFL@aol.com (Direct your e-mail to Ian Clark, Parts Dept.)
Web Site: http://www.monaco-motors.co.uk/

Tell them Rich from Virginia referred you to them.

What you will pay depends on the current exchange rate. Most folks paid between $500 and $600. You can sell your used .184s to someone with an A4 automatic to recoup some of the cost.

- Rich

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]</p>
 

Ted_Grozier

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Location
Hanover, New Hampshire USA
TDI
2002 Golf GL 4-dr
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Yes the 205s are great. Now that we are on winter fuel here there is some smoke at full load - but then again I never ran the Upsolute chip on winter fuel. On summer fuel, the smoke with the 205s alone was better or equal to UP, but without the 1,800-rpm "burp" and, in my opinion, better overall driveability.

I have not done 0-60 testing on this configuration, but steady-state 60mph to 80 mph is now 9 seconds, same as UP. By comparison, stock is 11 and one car I was in recently (chip, injectors, tuning box, 11mm pump, lots of smoke) was 7 seconds..

Regards and good luck.

Ted
 

Green Goblin

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2001
Location
Northwest OH
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Believer,
I think TDIRay has the automatic pump and .205's and I know he has eaten a few clutches already. Might get his feedback on that.
 

Craig

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 1999
Location
Kitchener, Ont., Canada
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Since either .205s or Ups will give about the same power increase, the Ups is more cost effective. It costs about half of what the injectors do.

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Craig ]</p>
 

adiel

Active member
Joined
Oct 21, 2001
Location
miami
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

what are the ups?..sorry i found out....its short for upsolute...i cant delete this posting...

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: adiel ]</p>
 

Pysslan

Active member
Joined
Aug 22, 2001
Location
Sweden
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

TDI Believer

Why should it cause trouble when you use Chip + Injectors + Tuning Box??

I live in Sweden and I already have the .205 injectors as standard. On top of that I have both a chip and a Tuningbox. I have been running like this for 6 months now and I have had no problems at all (except for the MAF, but that is not related). I don't know of other major differences between our engines except the injectors.

Leffe
Sweden
 

TDI Believer

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Joined
Sep 20, 1999
Location
Charles Town,WV
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2012 Touareg TDI
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pysslan:
TDI Believer

Why should it cause trouble when you use Chip + Injectors + Tuning Box??
<hr></blockquote>

OK...I didn't say the combination of Chip + Injectors + Tuning Box WILL cause trouble, I implied it COULD cause trouble.

First, let's agree that it is possible to push these engines too far. Let's also agree that optimum combustion in a TDI occurs within a 36-degree window of crank rotation, between 15-degress BTDC and 21-degrees ATDC (according to papers provided to me by SkyPup, this is correct). Fuel quantity for injection is controlled (by the ECU) by varying the length (in time) of the injection pulse. At WOT the injection pulse is the longest. If the injection pulse lasts beyond 21-degrees ATDC, energy from combusion begins to convert to heat instead of work. Mileage goes down and exhaust temps go up. The turbo operates by converting heat from the exhaust to work (driving the compressor). With these things in mind, let's look at what the three fueling mods do.

FAT INJECTORS: The fat injectors cause more fuel to be injected into the engine for any given injection pulse length. With the injectors therefore, it is possible to inject more fuel into the engine without lengthening the injection pulse duration. The injection pulse stays within the optimum 36-degree angle of crank rotation. This is a great mod! A larger injection pump will have the same effect.

CHIP: The chip advances the injection timing, increases turbo boost (by about 5psi), and extends the limits for injection pulse duration beyond the factory limits. At WOT, the injection pulse duration is likely near or beyond 21-degrees ATDC, causing exhaust temps to rise a bit and mileage to drop. If the engine has fat injectors, the effect is amplified somewhat because there is more fuel available at the end of the injection pulse to be converted to heat. Keep in mind this heat acts on the turbo to produce boost. There is more stress on the engine and the turbo. As long as this stress doesn't exceed the design limits, you're OK. To my knowledge, no one has destroyed an engine running chip and injectors yet.

TUNING BOX: The single-pot tuning boxes allow you to adjust fuel quantity (injection pulse duration) even beyond what the chip will give. Three-pot boxes also allow you to adjust injection timing. There is a limit to how much the ECU will allow you to lengthen the injection pulse. When this limit is reached, the dreaded Warp Field Collapse occurs - the engine takes the fuel pedal away from you and you end up kissing the windshield until the engine speed drops near idle. This is a very abrupt event.

Now keep in mind, with all three mods (together) you are lengthening the injection pulse to maximum while injecting more fuel than the ECU knows about (because of the fat injectors). At WOT, you will be creating very high exhaust temps.

With all of that said, the safest way to increase power on the TDI is to do whatever you can to increase fueling without exceeding the 36-degree window of crank rotation by too much. This will help ensure that all that fuel is converted to work instead of heat. Fat injectors and bigger injection pumps will work for this.

Also keep in mind that when you add more fuel, you need more air to burn it. Turbo upgrade anyone?

And lastly, the stock clutch on the A4 is only up to one fueling mod. Two and it will slip. Three and it will fry. Stock differentials have been known to fail (ask BG) from too much power in extreme situations (like popping the clutch). There are aftermarket alternatives from Quaife and Peloquin.

Whew!
 

Ted_Grozier

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Location
Hanover, New Hampshire USA
TDI
2002 Golf GL 4-dr
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Yes well said. In my opinion, and I stress _my opinion_ only, the stock 90hp injection window is as wide as you want to go. If you want more power, go to larger injectors. Go up to the .216s and the 11 mm pump. That's what VW did for their race engine. Of course you will have to dramatically increase airflow and will have to go to a larger turbo and intercooler.

Anything else and the exhaust temps are too high, in my opinion, for reliable daily-driver (or daily racer) operation.

In addition, with the above modifications and low-compression pistons, there will be no smoke! Smoke, all other factors equal, only indicates high exhaust temps and potential for turbo trouble, again in my opinion.

Ted
 

GassinGerhard

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 1999
Location
Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

I've got all that stuff on my motor and it hauls ass! Exhaust temp gauge lets me know when it's time to back off - usually high speeds on steep hills at higher elevations. It's amazing how much boost that sucker makes at higher elevations.
 

GassinGerhard

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 1999
Location
Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

Oh yeah, I've had it dynoed twice. The first time, I had the Upsolute and the Tuning Box. It made 111 h.p. and 225 ft./lbs. of torque at the wheels. Second time was with Upsolute and .205mm injectors. It made 121 h.p. and 222 ft./lbs. of torque at the wheels. Tomorrow I'm gonna get it back on the dyno with everything and see what it does.
 

Pysslan

Active member
Joined
Aug 22, 2001
Location
Sweden
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

I agree with the technical explanation that TDI Believer refers to but my point was that everybody agreed on the fact that two things out of three was O.K. but three wasn't. From my point of wiev I have done only two mods, chips and TB, my injectors are still stock (European engine with .205 injectors).

Maybe the right way to go would be .216 injectors and change to a larger injection pump. Does anybody know what kind of injection pump we have in Europe?

This forum is filled with information about TDI-engines and we don't have anything similar in Europe that I know about.

Besides that, the clutch seems to be a lot better i Europe. I have never had any tendencies of a slipping clutch. :))

Leffe
 

PTC

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2000
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
TDI
HMaracic
Re: .205\'s or Upsolute?

I don't know why people want that larger pump, because the euro 110 TDI (both older AHF and newer ASV) use the SAME PUMP like AGR (euro 90hp) and manual ALH.
 
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