2017 Golf SportWagen S 1.8L TSI CXBB

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
I purchased this car as a replacement for my 09 TDI wagen.

now learning anew what this is all about. the wagen is familiar, with an update, and 4mo to learn about

found an earlier SSP, for an 888 gen 3, but not specific to the CXBB

would be interested if someone has an Self study guide specific to the CXBB

Plenty of complicated stuff in this engine



logged my drive to work, and saw the coolant temp jump to hot so fast, it was shocking, compared to my TDI. and then it seems to jump around a bit. then the SSP says the system regulates to one of two temps, 107 or 85 C, (and of course the instrument panel indicator stays glued at 200f after getting there)

On second read, the system selects a coolant temperature within the range.

and the separate coolant pump runs after shutdown. probably good for the turbo, which seems to be in one of the coolant loops
 
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meerschm

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB


above is the new GSW

below is the JSW TDI



both charts are the same drive to work,

and the time is similar, but not exact. 1480 seconds for the upper, 1660 seconds for the lower
 

JSWTDI09

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Joined
Jan 31, 2009
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Las Vegas, Nevada
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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
I now own an EA888 gen 3b (Budack cycle), so I have been doing a little learning also.
A big reason why the 888 warms up faster is because VW uses a water cooled exhaust manifold. This is for several reasons, but one of the stated ones is faster warmup for less emissions. As far as temperature stability, I am not sure - perhaps they are related?

Have Fun!

Don
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
https://www.carworklog.com/2017/01/08/mk7-self-study-program-pdfs/

lists a couple SSP pdfs somewhat related.

https://www.carworklog.com/stuff/SSP/SSP%20606%20-%20Audi%201,8l-%20and%202.0l%20TFSI%20engines%20of%20series%20EA888%20(3rd%20generation).pdf

includes descriptions for a pretty complicated electronic controlled coolant temperature control system.

I followed up with a log of a few other temps in VCDS. there are readings for specified and actual coolant temps. they track pretty close to each other, and vary all over the place, as shown in the above chart.

seems they include a target coolant temperature to go with the operating condition maps in the engine. so, depending on how we drive, (and ask for heat from the HVAC or not), the target temperature is varied.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Thanks for the link to the gen 3 SSP. It does look like a very complex cooling system control setup. Very interesting. From what I have gathered the biggest difference between your gen 3 engine and my gen 3b engine is in the intake cam shaft. If you look at the exhaust cam shaft in the SSP you can see the multiple cam lobes. The new "B" series uses a very similar dual cam lobe setup on the intake cam shaft as well as the exhaust.

Have Fun!

Don
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
They employ a pretty complex water pumping system, too.

They use the high exhaust temp for initial warm up, then need to back off of some of the coolant flow in that area so that the exhaust stays hot enough to let the catalyst do its job properly.

Honda, Chrysler, and I'm sure others do the water jacket around the exhaust port thing for this very reason.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
On a related note, I have six quarts of 507 00 oil and a couple oil filters for the CBEA. was going to visit the local parts desk with a smile on my face to see if I can trade for gasser parts.

but then, the 507 00 oil Castrol LL03, is 504 00 and 507 00. which seems ok to use in the 2017 GSW.

sticker under the hood says 502 00, but the owners manual says 502 00, 503 00 or 504 00

brings up the question, use 5w30 or 5w40?
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
On a related note, I have six quarts of 507 00 oil and a couple oil filters for the CBEA. was going to visit the local parts desk with a smile on my face to see if I can trade for gasser parts.

but then, the 507 00 oil Castrol LL03, is 504 00 and 507 00. which seems ok to use in the 2017 GSW.

sticker under the hood says 502 00, but the owners manual says 502 00, 503 00 or 504 00

brings up the question, use 5w30 or 5w40?
Just to make matters even more confusing, the 2018 VW gassers have a new oil specification - VW 508/509 which is a 0W20 full synthetic motor oil. I have severe second thoughts about running an oil that thin in my car. Time will tell what I will use when I am due for my first oil change.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. I also have 6 or 8 liters of VW 507 oil in my garage.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
They employ a pretty complex water pumping system, too.

They use the high exhaust temp for initial warm up, then need to back off of some of the coolant flow in that area so that the exhaust stays hot enough to let the catalyst do its job properly.

Honda, Chrysler, and I'm sure others do the water jacket around the exhaust port thing for this very reason.

Thanks!

it also looks like this lets them reduce the exhaust temp at higher loads to protect both the turbo and that catalyst. (as a better alternative to dumping extra fuel in the path, which also would cool the exhaust)

https://youtu.be/nNendiDFzSM

is linked to from here

http://gas2.org/2017/06/23/water-cooled-exhaust-means-more-power-and-fewer-emissions/



and here is a video from a Chevy engineer from six years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RomuhVwRgxc
 
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meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Just to make matters even more confusing, the 2018 VW gassers have a new oil specification - VW 508/509 which is a 0W20 full synthetic motor oil. I have severe second thoughts about running an oil that thin in my car. Time will tell what I will use when I am due for my first oil change.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. I also have 6 or 8 liters of VW 507 oil in my garage.

sounds like what Chevy did with the Dexos. (when the engines are designed for the thinner oil) I think I read where this was a superior lubrication solution for engines with reduced clearances in internal parts.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
One thing is for certain: when they break, it is going to be labor intensive to do anything, and parts are not likely to be cheap.

The water pump alone, which is built upon a design that has in its nearly decade long existence, been a constant wallet emptying nuisance for owners, makes my butthole pucker.

And we've already seen how fragile the plastic oil pans are. Dead possum will take one out. Luckily the got by with a $500 bill, as he shut the engine off right away. But geez.... a dead possum? Come on.... if they are that fragile, they should come standard with some sort of metal skidplate on the bottom of the car. The low hanging aluminum pans now almost seem robust in comparison. :rolleyes:

At least the Tiggy sits higher, and the Alltrack does too.

I am also not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about the 0w20 oil. My reasoning? Two fold.

First, many of the other manufacturers that have on some engines spec'd a 5w20 or 0w20 oil have already shown us that any and all oil consumption issues will be compounded by the use of a thinner oil. In some cases, engines that already are WELL KNOWN for rampant oil burning problems like Subaru and Mitsubishi and some Toyotas will turn a quart every 2500 mile habit with 5w30 into a quart every 1500 mile habit with 0w20. Subie did at least up the oil capacity, but still, on a fleet of Foresters we regularly service, on a 5k interval (fleet mandated, Subaru says 7500), they all come in with either the oil at the very low tip (below the operating range) on the dipstick, or the dipstick completely dry. Every. Single. One. And these are NEW cars, not some clapped out worn out 150k mile unit. Many VAG gasoline engines have also had some pretty abysmal oil consumption problems, some far worse than others, and this was with a 5w40 spec motor oil on board. And many (most) have a 10k mile interval. If there is no input from the owner to take the reins and keep the oil level topped off, an engine that consumes 1 liter of 5w40 oil every 2500 miles is going to be spending most of its [short] life perpetually low on oil. They simply cannot safely go 10k miles without opening the hood. Maybe they get by with this for the first 50k miles or so, but by then the oil consumption has increased, and ring/breather coking has snowballed, to the point that it becomes a race to see if the engine blows up first or the catalyst dies from trying to deal with being slowly poisoned by all this extra oil. 0w20 will only make this worse. Again, VAG, like others, have increased the oil capacity. Most of the 4 cyl engines went from 4.25 L, to 4.5 L, to 5 L, and now the newest ones are 5.5 L capacity. And they generally have low oil sensors. That is good, and may soften the blow of any increased oil consumption.

Second, the reason as to "why" use a thinner oil. I think most of it is to eek out a wee bit better fuel consumption, not necessarily to aid in start up lubrication for that first 15 seconds. Did they actually DO the fieldwork to insure the thinner oil is actually OK for the engine? Or, more importantly, OK for the engine long term, meaning, beyond its warranty period? Also, just like we used to see with carburetor engines, the oil with DI gas engines, turbo or not, tends to get "washed out" and fuel diluted. So it thins before it thickens. When you drain the oil on many of these engines, it comes out like black 1970s lawn mower oil. Wouldn't it stand to reason that an oil that starts out thinner already will get even thinner yet once this fuel dilution happens? Unscientific for sure, but the Pentosin 5w40 HP2 oil that I drain out of my 170hp 1.8t AWM engine after 10k miles looks and feels more like new oil than the same oil I drain from the "new" 170hp 1.8t engine in a newish Golf or Jetta. And the newer engines hold nearly a liter more oil!

Lots to consider, that's for sure. We have already seen a rapid increase in major mechanical engine damage in some newer engines that get the least bit neglected, and they are no longer cost effective to fix, given their complexity. They just get replaced. Most recently is the new 4.3L V6 in GM C/K trucks and G-vans. The vario-cam, cylinder deactivation, etc. stuff is all depending on lots of oil flow, clean oil, with no chunks coking up all the countless little passages. They have no tolerance for neglect. The fleets are finding this out the hard way. The old 4.3L V6 (especially the REALLY old TBI ones from the early '90s) were tough engines that could take all kinds of neglect and abuse. Not as powerful, not as clean, not as fuel efficient, but a weak, thirsty, dirty engine that still runs will get your truck to the job site. A fancy new one with a perpetual MIL on that just left you dead on the side of the road won't. :(
 
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meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/ even thinner oil for better fuel economy. (with a promise of 0w8!) the bottom line seems to be that these engines need to be watched.

thanks for the good advice on not neglecting maintenance.

Also, I parked this wagon in the same place my 09 was parked for almost 9 years, and already found snack residue from a rodent in the 2017. my guess is a chipmunk, who left a chewed up acorn in front of the battery, and one more in an engine mount bolt hole. vacuumed out the mess, and will keep a close eye on it.


My guess is that the coolant formulation and composition is important as well. will keep a close eye on level, color, and clarity. I thought about the advantages of a little higher clearance in the alltrack, but since I managed to avoid damage for 205,000 miles in the GSW, (and have a set of snows that fit the wagon), decided to chance it.


This new car also shows oil temperature in the dash display, but it does not seem to match the VCDS oil temperature measuring blocks. probably another computer mapping that makes sense to some german intern five years ago. for some reason, the oil temperature dash display reads --- until the engine is half way warmed up.
 
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JSWTDI09

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Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
I am also not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about the 0w20 oil.
I actually exchanged PMs with TooSlick (and others) asking their opinions about this 0W20 spec. We all pretty much agree. If (when) I need to add oil, it will be my left over VW507 (5W30) and on the first oil change it will be going to a good quality 5W20 or maybe 0W30 weight full synthetic oil. This should make only a tiny difference in economy (if any).

Speaking of economy; I've been impressed by the economy I am seeing with the new "B-cycle" engines. My new car is the first non-diesel vehicle I have driven that routinely exceeds the EPA estimates for fuel economy. My Tiggy is rated at 22/27 mpg (avg. 24). So far I have not had a single tank with an average under 27 and my best tank was 31.5. That best tank was about 1/3 highway, all the rest of my driving is stop&go city driving. I find this pretty impressive for a vehicle of this size and weight.

They say that this new "B-cycle" engine will be the standard in new VWs in the future. So far it is only in the 2018 Tiguans. Time will tell. I do not know why, but this is the second time I have bought a new VW with a new engine design. I must be a sucker for punishment.:rolleyes:

Have Fun!

Don
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well if you are not going to be driving as much, as you said before, you could deal with such poor fuel economy. I couldn't. But I drive more than you do, and I drive in cold weather... and I will have to do so for quite a while longer.

I am spoiled, I could never drive anything daily that was not able to at least tag 40. What sucks for me is that there is not ever going to be anything better than what I already have now in that regard, and what I have now is several stages technology backwards. And I don't see the EVs' technology and prices coming to that point any time soon, but will almost certainly at some point be the next thing for me.

Or I could move closer to work.... but every evening on the local news I am reminded of why I moved out to the boonies in the first place.

While I would say that a ~30 MPG Tiguan is pretty good, I'll bet the[forbidden] diesel version gets much better. And that fact alone would anger me. It angers me to look down at my rare-driven gasser Passat and see 24 MPG staring me back in the face, when my diesel Passat smiles back a 42 on the same trip. Granted, the gasser is AWD, but still, a pretty staggering difference.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
on the bright side, the 4motion seemed to work flawlessly last week during what would have been a slightly slick ride up the hill to the lodge on fresh snow, and I noted diesel is $0.50 a gallon more expensive at the local station (where it still seems strange not to reach for the diesel pump)

on the road, mpg was 32 by the MFD cruising at 75 mph. better in the slow lane.

so giving the TDI credit for 39 mpg, at these prices ($2.30 vs $2.80 per gallon), it is a wash, economy wise. call it 7.2 cents per mile.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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None
AFAIK, the 2018 Passat 2.0T is running the Budack-cycle engine as well. (It's replaced the 1.8T as the base engine.)

Also, 0W-8 is being used in some Honda engines today in the Japanese market (the naturally aspirated kei cars, with 0W-16 in the turbos), as that article about 0W-16 implied. Also as the article said, the current applications are only the 2018 Camry 4-cylinders. (The V6s are running 0W-20 still, AFAIK.)

My experience so far with a 0W-20 in a Toyota application (2ZR-FXE ESTEC) has been... perfectly fine. Steady oil levels, not turning super-dark. Granted, it's a hybrid application, and it's only getting the second OCI (20k) today, but still.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
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Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Sunday morning, I could not get over 27 mpg, but the temp was minus 5, and I did not bother to get out and pump up the tires. also probably a hundred pounds of frozen water type stuff on the body, in non-aerodynamic designs.

by the time it warmed up, was back over 32 MPG at cruising speed.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
on the oil temperature display, I have figured out that the oil temp on the dash matches the oil temp vcds reveals from the instrument controller.

but the IDE00196 Engine oil temperature value is different between the engine controller and the instrument panel.

silly me, I would have thought that a variable name would be consistent.

starts 12 degrees c out, and settles closer to 3 or 4 degrees.

I think I will look at the transmission temp, and see if this is what the instrument panel displays.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
same engine, but my car has the DSG automated manual transmission and 4motion all wheel drive.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
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Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Thanks for the reply. Good to know meerschm. It looks like these new gasoline engines can show some new degrees of efficiency. But how to they perform under load?
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
it may be the programming, but to me, it seems very close to what my 2009 TDI did.

I find it slow to upshift on uphill freeway onramps at moderate acceleration, and similar oomph to mid-range driving acceleration around town. no issues on PA mountain freeways at speed.

my impressions of the alltrack was that it seemed to have a bit less in the oomph department.

this past weekend we drove from northern VA to just south of Syracuse NY. driving up in the warm rain, MFD indicated a bit over 33 mpg, on the way home 31. (friday was in the 60s, and it was single digits starting the trip home, and in the 20s by the southern end of the trip. I had put 41.5 psi in the tires last Thursday when it was 50 or so. the half hour trip to the ski slopes from the motel was in below zero weather with some idling to get the car warm enough to scrape the ice off the glass. back and forth mpg was in the mid 20s.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
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Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
after driving this car on a range of snowy roads with the 4motion and oem tires, I think I will sell my snow tires.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
after driving this car on a range of snowy roads with the 4motion and oem tires, I think I will sell my snow tires.
Most folks probably do not need snows, but in my case I prefer the smoother quieter ride of a regular tire that is NOT good in snow, and snow tires that suck for anything BUT snow. Any tire that is expected to do both will do so without excelling at either.

But it really just depends on your needs and just how much actual snow covered ground you drive on, vs. how quickly the roads get plowed.

It is convenient for me to have an extra set of wheels w/ snows because I just store them here at the shop, and swap them as needed. It may not be as convenient for everyone.

My B5, which is likely better than your car in deep snow because it is heavier and has the Torsen system coupled with ESP, is still better with the snows on that with the Michelin Primacy tires that I run the rest of the time. Since it is my go to vehicle for winter weather (and sits much of the rest of the time) and because getting to our rural farm property is 2.5 miles of unpaved, unplowed, hilly backwoods roads, I find them VERY helpful. Couple winters ago I was driving through untouched freshly fallen snow that was so deep I could not open the driver's door without having to push a couple of inches of snow out of the way. I have installed a rough road suspension, too, so it sits up a bit higher (like the Alltrac or Allroad) so that helps.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Province of Quebec, Canada
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Gone...
after driving this car on a range of snowy roads with the 4motion and oem tires, I think I will sell my snow tires.
I won't be able to do that with my new 4MO. Snow tires are mandated by law in Quebec. If it's as good as you say on 4 season tires, it will be awesome on snow tires!

Is the thinner oil just mandated by Budak cycle engines, or are the 2018 1.8 TSIs also using it?
 

JSWTDI09

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Las Vegas, Nevada
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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Is the thinner oil just mandated by Budak cycle engines, or are the 2018 1.8 TSIs also using it?
My 2018 came with a supplement in the package with the owners manual that says that the VW 508 (0W20) oil is specified for all 2018 Tiguans, Beetles and Passats in the US and Canada. Only the Tiguan has the Budak cycle engine (as of now). Therefore it does not apply only to the B-cycle engines. VW says the B-cycle engine will be in all future VWs, but they don't say when (it probably will depend on how well they work out in the Tiguans). So far I am impressed with the economy, considering the size and weight of the vehicle.

Have Fun!

Don
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
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Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Just so you guys do not think I have some unbased dislike for the EA888 engines, this just came in today:





2015 GTI, CXCB engine (so second gen EA888), a whole 53k miles, water pump/thermostat housing cracked and leaking on the ground. Third one so far this year... and it is still January. :(
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The water pump for some engines comes complete with the housing, just have to check with the dealer. There is also a plastic pipe that likes to break. I have never seen one of the little belts fail.
 
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