2015 Touareg - Repeated CEL and AdBlue Error after filling AdBlue

[Capt.Aidan]

Good day everyone!

First time posting, but have been reading the forums since buying my 2015 Touareg a year ago. I am wondering if anybody has any suggestions, as I am totally lost on what my vehicles issue is, or if it is just my dealer (Owasco Volkswagen), not fixing things properly.

Starting at 175k km when I get the prompt to refill the AdBlue within 1500km, I've topped everything up with a 10L jug of DEF; warning goes away and everything seems fine. At right around 300km since filling up, I get a CEL, AdBlue Error, and Engine No Start Countdown. This has happened 4 times now, exact same thing every time I have to fill up the Ad Blue.

I don't have a scanner, so the only codes I have are the ones that have been on my service tech notes. Every time it seems the same group of codes are getting pulled.
P229F, P20EE, P204F, P207F

At 175k km dealer replaced Rear NOX Sensor under Emissions Warranty

At 188k km dealer replaced NOX Catalyst under Emissions Warranty

At 200k km dealer replaced Rear NOX Sensor again, this time under parts warranty

At 208k km replaced the Front NOX Sensor - this time dealer tried getting me to pay. I had to fight with them for a month without my Touareg, before they gave me any support.

Right after getting it back with the Front NOX Sensor, I drove it 300km and its happened again. Its back at the dealership now, but at this point I don't know if I've got something seriously messed up with the SCR system, or if my dealer is just incompetent (I'm hoping it's the latter).

Has anybody else experienced this before?

Thanks in advance,

Aidan

 

[TurboABA]

How much longer do you have left on your dieselgate warranty?
Take it to a different dealer.
Without proper diagnostic equipment, it's hard for any of us to give you any useful advise.
You're in the GTA, you can find someone local that might be able to scan it for you if you don't want to spend on a tool yourself, and learn how to use it (I would highly recommend that you do, as otherwise you are completely blind).
The systems in the Touareg are quite complex and it's not easy to diagnose even when you have proper tools\equipment, that's why even the dealers are butchering things up.

 

[Capt.Aidan]

My dieselgate warranty finished at 193k km unfortunately, so I am no longer covered unfortunately. Would tuning it potentially fix this?

Based on my experience with the dealer, I will definitely be getting a scanner so I can validate some of these things myself.

When I hear back from the dealer today, I will more than likely try to take it up to DCB in Orillia. That seems to be the most reputable shop around.

 

[TurboABA]

Are you sure it was over at 193?
Call a dealer and get them to run your VIN unless you know the exact date\milage when your egg was fixed.

Would tuning it potentially fix this?

Fix what? We don't know what the problem is.
A delete may fix a broken component if it's no longer used (for example a DEF injector).
Also note that 10L is not a complete refill, so I suspect that is part of your issue... you're not really sufficiently refilling the tank, and as a result, you may not be resetting the system. The tank hold something like 19L if I recall.

 

[Capt.Aidan]

In the Canada Extended Emissions Warranty it specifies:

1. 10 years or 193,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle’s original in- service date; OR
2. 4 years or 77,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of the completion of the emissions repair.

I'm now at 208k.

Sorry, considering I've replaced both senors and the cat, my thinking for the "fixing" it would be maybe the software update was not completed properly, causing the faults to keep coming even after replacing these things. Most other threads I've read seem to clear the AdBlue error after replacing the either of the NOX sensors that are in question.

I should have been more specific, the last two times were completely filled, once by the dealer and most recently by myself with 19L.

 

[TurboABA]

I'm not sure why you're educating me on the coverage, when I fully understand it and want to help you understand it.
So... looking at what you posted but don't understand (or aren't disclosing the exact info on)

1. 10 years or 193,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle’s original in- service date; OR
2. 4 years or 77,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of the completion of the emissions repair.

1 - you've exceeded the 193 or this "option" is done.
2 - you didn't say when it was fixed.... so in the absence of information, if your vehicle was fix Feb 2018 @ 170k or something, you'd still have warranty.

There's a green sticker under your hood that should have the date, but it won't have the milage.... best way is to contact a dealer, and run your VIN to have them tell you the details.

 

[Capt.Aidan]

Wow, I totally misinterpreted that. I will definitely look into that an see if there is a small chance I'm still covered and my dealer is just trying to get me to pay.

Will update when I hear back. Thank you!

 

[TurboABA]

You're not the first or the last to do so..... a dealer can't "deny" you that information. Contact corporate if needed, but someone owes you that info.
Make sure you also ready the warranty info to fully understand just how much is covered as many owners get ripped off or turned away for stuff that should be covered.

 

[TurboABA]

I don't have a scanner, so the only codes I have are the ones that have been on my service tech notes. Every time it seems the same group of codes are getting pulled.
P229F, P20EE, P204F, P207F

You need a proper tool like VCDS so that you can see exactly what all these generic codes are being caused by.
When I look all these up, they should all be covered by the dieselgate fix. Some of them should be addressed by a pending regen once any faulty sensors or components have been replaced, and the vehicle is driven. There are some regens that can be triggered with the proper scanner mentioned so that you can even do it while parked if you meet the criteria, etc.

Unfortunately, we don't have enough information in what you're being told to take a proper approach.

P229F - NOx Sensor Circuit Range/Performance Bank 2
code possible causes
Faulty Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) Sensor Bank 2
Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) Sensor Bank 2 harness is open or shorted
Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) Sensor Bank 2 circuit poor electrical connection

P20EE - SCR NOx Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold Bank 1
code possible causes
Exhaust Leaks
Fuel contamination
Faulty Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF)
Faulty NOx Sensor
Diesel Exhaust Fluid
Faulty Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR) Catalyst

P204F - Reductant System Performance Bank 1

P207F - Reductant Quality Performance
code possible causes
Degraded, Diluted or Incorrect Diesel Exhaust Fluid
Exhaust System leak
Diesel Exhaust Fluid Deposit in Def Injector Decomp Tube
Defective SCR Catalyst

 

[Capt.Aidan]

Thanks for all this info. I'll look into getting a scan tool in the next few days so I can get some proper info.

Maybe the dealer didn't execute the regen after the most recent sensor replacement.

Obviously VCDS is the best, is there a handheld/mobile tool that offers similar capability? I'm operating on a macbook right now unfortunately.

 

[TurboABA]

In terms of capability\value, there's nothing comparable IMO.
Other's have ventured into ODBeleven as an alternate, etc. I don't know much about it so I'm not going to tell you about it.

System Requirements:
A 1.5 GHZ dual core processor with 1 Gb of RAM and Windows 7 or newer (Windows 7 through 10, but not RT) with an available USB 2.0 (or higher) port. Use a machine robust enough to properly support the operating system. Windows running inside a Virtual Machine (for example on a Mac) is not supported.

You can find all the info on the tool on the manufacturer's site.

VCDS | Product categories | Ross-Tech

 

[TurboABA]

I also believe there are users running on Macs but they use Parallels or similar options.
I myself have a dedicated POS laptop that I only use for VCDS.... cost me $25 on Kijiji. (I'm not telling you the specs because you'll be jelly AF)

 

[Mike in Anchorage]

FWIW, I had similar problems with my '16 model. Finally got a couple of dealers in the NW who noted that the temp/level sensor in the DEF fluid tank was throwing codes occasionally enough to show it was on the way out. Replaced under warranty and drove it back from Bellingham to Las Vegas - easily 8000 km or 5000 mi of towing and not a single problem. Just put in the AdBlu from time to time. It had thrown the NOx sensors a couple of times prior and those were also replaced.

 

[Capt.Aidan]

FWIW, I had similar problems with my '16 model. Finally got a couple of dealers in the NW who noted that the temp/level sensor in the DEF fluid tank was throwing codes occasionally enough to show it was on the way out. Replaced under warranty and drove it back from Bellingham to Las Vegas - easily 8000 km or 5000 mi of towing and not a single problem. Just put in the AdBlu from time to time. It had thrown the NOx sensors a couple of times prior and those were also replaced.

Thanks Mike! I will call the dealer and ask if they have looked into this. It is still with them, they've informed me they are waiting for a response from VW Techline on what to do... I'm thinking this could be a while before I get any kind of update.

 

[Mike in Anchorage]

Thanks Mike! I will call the dealer and ask if they have looked into this. It is still with them, they've informed me they are waiting for a response from VW Techline on what to do... I'm thinking this could be a while before I get any kind of update.

I hope it goes well. I had one code pop up while traveling and in Medford, OR the tech said he was replacing those sensor units daily and was out of stock.

 

[Capt.Aidan]

I hope it goes well. I had one code pop up while traveling and in Medford, OR the tech said he was replacing those sensor units daily and was out of stock.

I'm hoping that once I get this properly solved that it will be the end of it. Definitely concerning to hear that this is happening so frequently.

As I mentioned before, I'm not sure how much I can trust this dealership after having the same issue not be rectified with 4 visits in a 9 months. But they did tell me that they just got another '15 Touareg in that has been having the same issues while being serviced at another dealership.

I will post back when the dealership gets me an update; vehicle has effectively been there since Oct 18th...

 

[Capt.Aidan]

Just got the Touareg back from the dealership. I've been told that there was a leak on the EGR cooler outlet pipe.

The way the service manager explained it to me, the NOx Sensors were not getting the correct air flow to read correctly.

Does this make sense?

 

[Mike in Anchorage]

Mebbe. Hopefully that's the end of it. Seems sketchy, though.

 

[theonlysandman]

I am in this hell with my 2015 TDI as well.

These VW TDI vehicles really are lemons.

 

[TurboABA]

I am in this hell with my 2015 TDI as well.

These VW TDI vehicles really are lemons.

Only when you don't understand the tech. My '14 is at over 176k and I consider it far from a lemon.

 

[theonlysandman]

Mine has been in to VW under warrant 7 times in the last 18 months -- all AdBlue related.

Same pattern of problems everyone else sees. Light on sensors dying and being replaced one at a time etc.

what do you suggest being learned to stop these issues?

 

[TurboABA]

Can't answer that without knowing all the specifics.
Mine's had to have a NOx sensor replaced thus far on the "lemon" front.....
I make it part of my routine PM to scan it often so that nothing sneaks up on me.
Typically, when there's a pending issue, I'm aware of it before it actually throws a code.
If it throws a code, it gets scanned the same day and dealt with accordingly.

I also routinely take DPF readings and pay attention to readiness states.
After the dealership touches anything, I confirm whatever they claimed they did\replaced is functioning as it should.

As an example, they replaced my NOx as per above, but didn't complete the process by satisfying all driving cycles required to set readiness.
I ensured that all those cycles\conditions were satisfied after receiving the vehicle back (CEL free obviously) and also checked that my DEF dosage adaptation\compensation was working correctly before considering it "fixed" after the $2500 warranty repair.

So what's the issue that you can't "stop" from reoccurring?

 

[Capt.Aidan]

Mine has been in to VW under warrant 7 times in the last 18 months -- all AdBlue related.

Same pattern of problems everyone else sees. Light on sensors dying and being replaced one at a time etc.

what do you suggest being learned to stop these issues?

For those of us that do not have the time, means, or technical knowledge to learn how to use the software and interpret the outputs that are able to make a meaningful difference in vehicle maintenance and usage. I highly recommend finding an independent mechanic who specializes in these vehicles. It has absolutely been a game changer for me.

 

[TurboABA]

For those of us that do not have the time, means, or technical knowledge to learn how to use the software and interpret the outputs that are able to make a meaningful difference in vehicle maintenance and usage. I highly recommend finding an independent mechanic who specializes in these vehicles. It has absolutely been a game changer for me.

 

[theonlysandman]

For those of us that do not have the time, means, or technical knowledge to learn how to use the software and interpret the outputs that are able to make a meaningful difference in vehicle maintenance and usage. I highly recommend finding an independent mechanic who specializes in these vehicles. It has absolutely been a game changer for me.

Agreed! And we do have a great mechanic (15+ year now) for everything except the AdBlue system. They most can't/won't (not sure which) one.
At least a couple of times it was throwing codes that they said on VW could work on / clear.

But now that we are outside the warranty that might be different.

Have folks found none-VW mechanics who work on AdBlue systems?

At this point, I found a place in Toronto that does AdBlue Delete and seems to be the only option as some part in the system breaks every 4K-5K.

 

[theonlysandman]

Can't answer that without knowing all the specifics.
Mine's had to have a NOx sensor replaced thus far on the "lemon" front.....
I make it part of my routine PM to scan it often so that nothing sneaks up on me.
Typically, when there's a pending issue, I'm aware of it before it actually throws a code.
If it throws a code, it gets scanned the same day and dealt with accordingly.

I also routinely take DPF readings and pay attention to readiness states.
After the dealership touches anything, I confirm whatever they claimed they did\replaced is functioning as it should.

As an example, they replaced my NOx as per above, but didn't complete the process by satisfying all driving cycles required to set readiness.
I ensured that all those cycles\conditions were satisfied after receiving the vehicle back (CEL free, obviously) and also checked that my DEF dosage adaptation\compensation was working correctly before considering it "fixed" after the $2500 warranty repair.

So what's the issue that you can't "stop" from reoccurring?

I don't have all the paperwork with me, but here are two previous issues:

Replace Rear NOX Sensor
Replace NOX Catalyst

This time it is:
DPF Sensor


Basically, every 2-3 months, another part fails in the emissions / AdBlue system.

 

[TurboABA]

Regardless of your knowledge\capability, I wouldn't own any modern VAG without VCDS.
Spend $300 and get the tool, so that you can at least see what the issue is, instead of relying on what the shop is telling you.

 

[TurboABA]

I don't have all the paperwork with me, but here are two previous issues:

Replace Rear NOX Sensor
Replace NOX Catalyst

This time it is:
DPF Sensor


Basically, every 2-3 months, another part fails in the emissions / AdBlue system.

You said you're out of warranty, so that implies that you're over 193k on the ODO.
Totally feasible\normal that a NOx sensor and a pressure sensor would fail at that mileage.

The NOx Catalyst, I'd be skeptical of.
With the above mentioned VCDS tool, you'd be able to see what's happening, if said sensors were indeed not reading or were out of range, etc.
Deletes are an option, but hardware\software\install will be costly and the same $2-3k would buy a lot of replacement sensors and "wear" things on this lemon system if you were only fixing the stuff that actually needed fixing vs loading up the parts cannon because it's in warranty, etc.

 

[theonlysandman]

Yes, we are just now out of warranty.

The:
Replace Rear NOX Sensor two years ago (145Kish)
Replace NOX Catalyst (160Kish)

But I literally have been in the VW shop seven times in the last two years! Each stay is a minimum of 3 days; one was three weeks.
And no loaners. So, not a great experience.

I think the Ad Blue Delete will provide more drive time and less garage time because the system is bypassed, and I don't have to worry about the parts failing.

@TurboABA does the above thinking make sense to you?

PS: dealer just called and said the Catalytic convert pipe has to be replaced as well.

 

[theonlysandman]

Regardless of your knowledge\capability, I wouldn't own any modern VAG without VCDS.
Spend $300 and get the tool, so that you can at least see what the issue is, instead of relying on what the shop is telling you.

Yes, looking at the Ross-Tech device now! https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/
I am a computer geek by training so more tech is always fun -- even if I might not have the time.