2015 Golf TDI long crank first start of the day

[Victor Huge]

Checked this morning and pressure was exactly 1700hpa before start, key on raises pressure instantly from electric pump, then starter engages and this time it fired fairly quickly but died right after, starter kept going and engine started normally very shortly after. Seems like it's the valve timing solenoid...

 

[thundershorts]

I had the long crank issue occasionally, maybe 1 out of three starts until I replaced the lift pump with the latest part # one. Now no longer hear the pump hum and no longer get the long crank issue. the part # suffix was AN I seem to remember.

 

[thundershorts]

I had replaced the pump because I had emitted a loud screech sound and left me dead on the highway. VW refused to pay as they found no trouble. Lift pump itself throws no codes other than low rail pressure. Why would VW change the part unless they knew that the earlier one was a problem? Besides most of these cars sat for 2 years dormant, pumps sitting in funky fuel.

 

[Victor Huge]

Interesting, do you have the updated cam adjuster? What was your rail pressure before and after?

 

[thundershorts]

Victor, my car was a fairly late build date, late May, so it probably has updated adjuster. I didn't bother to check rail pressure before changing lift pump as the pump had shown signs of failure by its sounds and by leaving me stranded. No further long crank issue and the pump is almost inaudible.

 

[stu75038]

You got a leaky/sticky vvt valve. Probably cause the oil on average is too dirty. Change your oil AND clean your vvt valve. Watch the below video...will save you a lot of pain and anguish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXvHdmq0reA

 

[Victor Huge]

I didn't know cleaning it was an option but i did see diagnose Dan's video and i think that's the issue. Unfortunately the dealer in Canada lists the old part with that big bulb on it. Any idea what that part is for guys and gals? In any case, at some point I'm going to change it

Forgot to add to thundershorts (love the name) that i don't think my fuel pump is the issue as it sounds good.

 

[stu75038]

I'd assume if Dan-the-man can dissemble the old part then so can we. Soak the metal bits in a solvent and scrub-adub-dub. Just now noticed that Smertrios had already found that video 8 months ago and posted it on this thread...I'm bad about reading all the posts before posting....good find Smertrios!

Just curious for my own protection from such an issue...how often do you change your oil and filter?

Stu

 

[RIP TDI]

.I'm bad about reading all the posts before posting....good find Smertrios!

Then make sure you read post #s: 52, 53 & 57

 

[CruisingWagon]

My car has done this on a few occasions since I've owned it too. However, this week it became worse. It was happening on almost every start. Took it up to VW and they said it's bad fuel but cleaned my fuel injectors anyway.

Incidentally, I did buy fuel at a different station so I'm waiting for this tank to empty and fill up at my regular place.

We'll see what happens.

 

[Lightflyer1]

"Bad fuel" is a common reason given by VW for almost anything wrong with your car. Take it with a grain of salt. Unless you are really buying some rot gut fuel somewhere.

 

[thundershorts]

My contention is if its bad fuel, I want them to give me a lab report, not some wanker service writer telling me so. I was told my fuel jelled, so I put a sample in my sub zero set to -14f and left it there for 24h, nothing happened except it changed from yellow to slightly cloudy yellow. They refused to change the lift pump, although it was screeching at -7f. its obvious to me vw changed the lift pump part# because of some known problem with the pump and the long crank issue many here have experienced. If you read the extended warranty at the bottom of page 5, it states that any disputed issue with the warranty, customer shall prevail. I'v asked customer service to explain that phrase and they said the legal dept would call me and two weeks have gone by with no call back from legal dept. One supposed regional manager, Sharon, told me that the wording in the warranty didn't exist.

 

[CruisingWagon]

Well, I'm halfway through the next tank of fuel and it hasn't had a long crank since. The reason I go back to that service department is that they've never steered me wrong that I know of.

Plus, if I was a dishonest Service Advisor I wouldn't tell my customer: "I don't want to charge you a diagnostic fee. We think it's bad fuel but they cleaned your injectors for you anyway. Fill up somewhere else and if it's still doing it let me know and I'll have you back for a better look."

Instead I'd tell them: "Yep, looks like you're low on turn signal fluid. We filled it up for ya. Only 500 dollars. It will take about a week for the sensors to catch up and then it will start like it's brand new!"

 

[dieslin]

My 2011 is having this extended crank when it sits. Yesterday i didnt think it was gonna start... what have you all tried so far t narrow it down? Fuel filter?

 

[marcusku]

There are a lot of ideas on the cause but I don't think it has been nailed down yet. Certainly a solution has not been confirmed at this time.

 

[HANSEN1937]

Hey Guys!! I'm new to the form but have had diesel VW's for about 6 years now. I am more familiar with the MK4 Jetta's but recently purchased a 2015 Golf TDI and I'm really liking it.
Anyway as the title says I'm experiencing a longer than normal cranking period the very first start of the day. After that initial long start it starts normally through the day. What I mean by long crank is the engine turns over approximately 4 to 6 times before it starts. After the first start of the day it will crank about 2 turns and fires right up.
Is anyone else experiencing this and if so whats the fix for it? My golf has 24000 miles. I replaced the fuel filter and its not any better. I'm thinking the HPFP is possibly de-priming over the night causing the extra cranks, what are your thoughts? thanks

There is an excellent video on U-tube explaining and demonstrating the repair.
The link: Vw golf 2.0TDI EA288 long crank diagnose P0341/P0016/P0011
See DIAGNOSE DAN.

 

[dj7373]

So any new updates on this issue?
I'm also getting long starts on the first start of the day and I'm worried that it might become an issue as it gets colder.

 

[RockRockRock]

I had this issue after putting in a cheaper fuel filter and getting the Stage 2 fix... So I couldn't tell what caused it.

The dealer mentioned the battery was on the way out. I put in a new battery and the car hasn't done it except for the first crank.

Theres a crazy sensor suite on new cars. Need to feed it plenty of angry pixies.

 

[marcusku]

So any new updates on this issue?
I'm also getting long starts on the first start of the day and I'm worried that it might become an issue as it gets colder.

On my car at least the problem only exists in warm weather. When the temp goes below 45 degrees it starts impressively fast. I wonder if it's a programming issue--the car should be running the glow plugs but doesn't at warmer temps.

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

Under certain cold-start conditions, these cars have a provision to purge the air out of the HPFP prior to allowing the fuel to pressurize. Apparently the CP4 are a lot more sensitive to damage air causing them to run dry. So under certain conditions the rail pressure regulator valve opens for a few seconds on a cold startup to make sure the HPFP is properly primed to avoid damage from air in the pump.

Did anyone see this?

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

In a CP3 or CP4 system, a deflation of the low or high pressure stage may be necessary if the vehicle was driven on an empty tank, or after the engine is started for the first time. In a CP3 system the air is shifted by the presupply pump through the metering unit. It then reaches the fuel pump again through the zero delivery throttle. This may result in long starting times or the engine not starting. In CP4 systems a deflation of the high pressure stage by opening the PCV may be necessary under certain circumstances. Deflation of the high pressure stage will become active, if at a starter speed the rail pressure does not exceed a pressure threshold even after a certain time.

Or this?
If it starts everytime maybe just let it do its thing.

 

[marcusku]

Did anyone see this?

I'm seen this but not sure I'm convinced. Doesn't make sense to me why this would only happen in warmer temperatures.

 

[itsmejerry]

I'm tempted to say it's no big deal, but if it concerns you here's my 2 cents:



1. Battery A good battery will have a huge surge of power during key-on/(Glow Plugs), and a diminished battery wont. The OEM battery gives ABSOLUTELY ZERO warning before going bad. Glowplugs take far more "instant" energy than a starter, and even though you don't have a slow turning starter, get ready for your battery to suddenly and irreversibly go out.

I've replaced 2 this year. One on my 2015, and another on an In-Law's 2014. Good one start- Then nothing.



2. You could have air leaking into the fuel system. Doubtful, unless you've not tightened the screws down on the fuel filter canister. But it's worth checking. Also check fuel lines going into and out of the fuel filter.



3. A cracked or pulled fuel line on the fuel filter. During maintenance the top gets folded back a bit, and this could have loosened it just enough to move a hose enough to break the seal.



Temperatures in the 50s can require a bit more glow plug time than temps in the 60's.

So many of us have gotten used to quick glow systems that we hardly even pause before turning the key or pushing the button again on remote key cars. This is the time of year that it starts to become noticable.



For the OLD SCHOOL diesel folks- (70's and 80's) it was nothing to turn the key and have to wait 20 seconds for the glow plug light to go out. Mom's former 1976 Mercedes 300-D would require 2 pre-glows of about a minute each during very cold weather. Nothing quite like sitting on leather seats for 2 minutes before turning the key when it's 10 degrees F outside.

 

[predrag]

I'm seen this but not sure I'm convinced. Doesn't make sense to me why this would only happen in warmer temperatures.

Hi everyone. I have EXACTLY the same symptoms with my golf 2013 TDI.
I'm just wondering did you find the solution? I'm convinced that it has something to do with duration of glow plug.
Thanks

 

[JM Popaleetus]

KERMA, who tunes these engines for a living gave you his opinion and ya’ll still aren’t convinced?

As long as your engine is starting...drive more; worry less.

If you feel like throwing money at the problem, replace your glow plugs and battery.

 

[RIP TDI]

To summarize:

Under certain cold-start conditions, these cars have a provision to purge the air out of the HPFP prior to allowing the fuel to pressurize. Apparently the CP4 are a lot more sensitive to damage air causing them to run dry. So under certain conditions the rail pressure regulator valve opens for a few seconds on a cold startup to make sure the HPFP is properly primed to avoid damage from air in the pump...

In a CP3 or CP4 system, a deflation of the low or high pressure stage may be necessary if the vehicle was driven on an empty tank, or after the engine is started for the first time. In a CP3 system the air is shifted by the presupply pump through the metering unit. It then reaches the fuel pump again through the zero delivery throttle. This may result in long starting times or the engine not starting. In CP4 systems a deflation of the high pressure stage by opening the PCV may be necessary under certain circumstances. Deflation of the high pressure stage will become active, if at a starter speed the rail pressure does not exceed a pressure threshold even after a certain time...

The long cranking is a safety mechanism for the HPFP. This is what VW changed in response to the early 1st gen failures in HPFP. It is a programming routine in the ECU.
It works like this:
After a revolution or two the rail pressure is not at spec, this indicates air in the HPFP.
the ECU then vents the rail until the model calculations say the air should be purged.
Then the PCV closes again and the car is allowed to start.
This process is called "deflation" and it is intended to help prevent the rash of early failures seen in the 1st gen HPFP.

 

[KERMA]

KERMA, who tunes these engines for a living gave you his opinion and ya’ll still aren’t convinced?

As long as your engine is starting...drive more; worry less.

If you feel like throwing money at the problem, replace your glow plugs and battery.

Well, the deflation function is a real thing but it turns out, likely not the cause of what's being described in this thread. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I believe I may have been wrong about that being the cause.

The real cause is most likely related to the VVT as described in the video.

 

[matteas]

Interesting stuff. Maybe a decreased oil change interval would be helpful in remedying this problem.

 

[marcusku]

KERMA, who tunes these engines for a living gave you his opinion and ya’ll still aren’t convinced?

As long as your engine is starting...drive more; worry less.

If you feel like throwing money at the problem, replace your glow plugs and battery.

It's certainly not a problem with the battery. I believe the glow plugs themselves work fine as it starts almost instantly when it's cold (<30F) every time. I could be that the computer is not telling the glow plugs to operate above a certain temp though. I've had several long starts lately, temps were in the upper 40's & 50's.

I would like to get to the bottom of it too. The last start I began to wonder if it was going to start before it killed the battery. (didn't time it but it cranked or 5-10 seconds)

Anyone know with VAG-COM if you can modify how long the glow plugs operate?

 

[marcusku]

Well, the deflation function is a real thing but it turns out, likely not the cause of what's being described in this thread. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I believe I may have been wrong about that being the cause.

The real cause is most likely related to the VVT as described in the video.

Possible, but seems to me the fellow who started this thread did replace that valve with the updated version and still has the issue.