2011 2.0 CR 6spd DKM SMF clutch DISASTER (dead synchros, new trans, new clutch)

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Brass takes the beating all day long. My ALH has 311k miles on it and has had a SMF since 100k I believe. I bought with 167k on it and it's been pretty bulletproof and a blast to drive as well.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The ductility of the brass rings no doubt plays a part. I'm not sure that's the whole story though. It would be interesting to see if a SMF setup coupled with a steel synchro 02Q installed on a VE tdi would yield the same destruction.
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Oh for sure it would!
The 02Ms aren't quiet by any means either (the 02Q is incredibly similar)
When I had the SMF on my '15, not only was there synchro clatter but a lot of gear lash noise. It was not pleasant at all, and that's with a Fluidampr.
I've seen 02M brass synchro damage with SMF setups too, so they're not invincible for the amount of life these cars are able to go, but think the Fluidampr on those setups would help quite a bit. Almost want to add one to my ALH just for the noise benefit but hard to justify the cost.
 

SmokeFree

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Location
Easton, PA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI, 2008 Audi A3 2.0T, 2010 Mercedes Sprinter 3500
awaiting ECS/DKM decision on warranty. DKM is NOT selling this Stage 2 SMF kit anymore. Sounds like I'm not the only squeaky wheel.
 

MukGyver

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Location
Sierra Ca
TDI
2004 Jetta PD
Speaking of harmonics generally,... do DMF's inherently or eventually often create their own dmf harmonic as they wear and interact with the engine pulses? Also curious, can worn rod bearing/s or crank bearing/s cause harmonics that are specific to the engine itself? And what other conditions can cause harmonics in a TDI. Harmonic resonances have always fascinated me and I'd like to know more about the causes relative to tdi's in case I ever start hearing or feeling one.

harmonics are NOT conducive to longevity.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Harmonics are the result of sine wave lengths. Guitar string being the best analogy I can come up with. The whole string vibrates up and down, at the halfway point, if you dampen the string there, you get exactly half the vibration length, an octave higher. You can dampen 3rds, 5ths, etc, isolating some of the frequencies that make up that full rich bodied tone of the whole string. All those complex interactions make beautifull music, the piano being the most complex vibrationary machine in the whole orchestra. Hit one string and EVERY other string in the piano is also vibrating and contributing to the overall sound.

In an engine all those different frequencies of movement, lets not forget that, can lead to unforseen consequences. Some vibes will reinforce similar frequencies in apparently unrelated parts. If everything is a shakin' and a hummin', a) you're losing energy; b) unwanted stress, sometimes on parts that can't handle it. Some little critical part is now rattling itself to pieces. There's lots of little bits in an internal combustion engine that have critical tolerance dimensions.

That 20 cents worth of plastic or tiny bearing failure can bring thousands of dollars worth of machine to a halt.
It's quite extraordinary that they run at all, let alone as long as some do.

This where electric cars have a huge advantage, a LOT less moving parts. Read a recent article about a small fleet of Teslas that they've been renting out, 100s of thousands of miles so far, very few problems. Keep the batteries charged,
obviously tires and brakes need serice, but that's about it. The technology on how to build a good electric motor has been around a loooong time. And so quiet they have to create noise to warn pedestrians.

And thus ends the dissertation.

:)
 

MukGyver

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Location
Sierra Ca
TDI
2004 Jetta PD
Thanks Russe11. The other day I was sitting in a quiet parking lot (no I wasn't loitering out drinking Colt 45 Malt Liquor :LOL:) and thought I detected about a 50 hz harmonic underneath the idle, separate from, not engine pulses. I suppose it could be anything or any number of things.
Harmonics are the result of sine wave lengths. Guitar string being the best analogy I can come up with. The whole string vibrates up and down, at the halfway point, if you dampen the string there, you get exactly half the vibration length, an octave higher. You can dampen 3rds, 5ths, etc, isolating some of the frequencies that make up that full rich bodied tone of the whole string. All those complex interactions make beautifull music, the piano being the most complex vibrationary machine in the whole orchestra. Hit one string and EVERY other string in the piano is also vibrating and contributing to the overall sound.

In an engine all those different frequencies of movement, lets not forget that, can lead to unforseen consequences. Some vibes will reinforce similar frequencies in apparently unrelated parts. If everything is a shakin' and a hummin', a) you're losing energy; b) unwanted stress, sometimes on parts that can't handle it. Some little critical part is now rattling itself to pieces. There's lots of little bits in an internal combustion engine that have critical tolerance dimensions.

That 20 cents worth of plastic or tiny bearing failure can bring thousands of dollars worth of machine to a halt.
It's quite extraordinary that they run at all, let alone as long as some do.

This where electric cars have a huge advantage, a LOT less moving parts. Read a recent article about a small fleet of Teslas that they've been renting out, 100s of thousands of miles so far, very few problems. Keep the batteries charged,
obviously tires and brakes need serice, but that's about it. The technology on how to build a good electric motor has been around a loooong time. And so quiet they have to create noise to warn pedestrians.

And thus ends the dissertation.

:)
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
I saw a youtube video of a poor shop installing a SMF on a '15 Golf with a tune, only to update 3 months later saying it failed, lol. applying "it worked wonders on my ol ALH" to the CR is a costly mistake people keep finding out the hardway. My guess the peak cylinder pressures of the multiple injections per combustion is just murder on the synchro's that only a DMF can solve.

As Euroland has increased emissions i wonder how newer Euroland TDis are handling SMF swaps, sounds like darkside tried to offer something but that failed as well.

While ECS did sell you the kit, seeing they are the middleman I'd be amazed they stand up for the customer return your cash, they'll pass the buck to the vendor and let you fight with DKM (that clutch kit was probably dropped shipped directly from DKM).

Remember ECS isn't a parts vendor, they are a venture capitol pet project to turn a profit that just happens to take your money for dropped shipped parts (I'm sure they stock some filters or something).
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
CUAA uses massive DMF (for DSG only) that can handle >400ft-lbs. It's 11mm thicker and is 8-bolt arrangement, so not upgradeable for us. It does however prove that a DMF can handle more torque, just need the right manufacturer to come along and request one.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
" want to add one to my ALH just for the noise benefit but hard to justify the cost. " adjat84th

I got lucky on the used classifieds a couple years ago and got one for $200. The Fluidampr IS an appreciable improvement on the 02J. You can hear the difference with the clutch in, or out, but it's so minor that I'm not
at all worried about my brass synchros. The whole drive train is smoother.
 

Fahrvegnugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Location
Burlington Vt
TDI
01 golf 1.9 alh gls silver
I wished I could hear/ feel this fluidampr. I’ve been running a smf sb stg 2 daily and it is just as quiet and easy going as the factory clutch. I don’t hear it at all but my machine is so loud I couldn’t hear a failing wheel bearing. Original exhaust too all in tact.
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
We don't advise SMF on the CR engines but our race cars all have them. On those we ensure we have the Brass Synchros and all is well, usually something else fails before the synchro, normally 4th gear.

These are usually marketed for petrol engines which have less vibrations and less issues with breakages. It would not hurt the sellers to point out to consumers the pitfalls they almost certainly know about.
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
Never used a Fluidamper or similar as that almost certainly wont fix this self inflicted problem.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
''Never used a Fluidamper or similar as that almost certainly wont fix this self inflicted problem." Ryanp

Self inflicted it may be, but it is certainly also the result of marketing to the uneducated/inexperienced.
Not all of us have dozens of cars under their belts with extensive mods. Caveat emptor. In my limited experience,
having had an 02J and an 02M gearbox with one attached, it does make a difference in dampening diesel harmonics.
As in my treatise above, the IC engine is, by its very nature, an extraordinary bundle of vibration. 1000s of explosions
a minute. When the battery/charge problem is solved, we'll look back at this era shaking our heads. The current supercars are now going electric.
 

SmokeFree

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Location
Easton, PA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI, 2008 Audi A3 2.0T, 2010 Mercedes Sprinter 3500
Getting a refund on the clutch kit only, from ECS. A lovely icing on the cake is that the original slave cylinder from the DKM kit failed too…after a year… this will be the 3rd time my trans is pulled and the car has less than 100k. Whatever. Just wanted to let you all know what happened. Competition Clutch in GA supplies DKM to the US, and to ECS. I’m going to steer clear of any unvetted products from here on out and still hold my opinion that this kit should come with a warning on their sites.
 

DivineChaos

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Location
Minnesota
TDI
mk6 jetta sportwagen tdi
CUAA uses massive DMF (for DSG only) that can handle >400ft-lbs. It's 11mm thicker and is 8-bolt arrangement, so not upgradeable for us. It does however prove that a DMF can handle more torque, just need the right manufacturer to come along and request one.
Man if only we could get these for the 2.0 cr engines.
 

Xtremefunky

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2022
Location
Germany
TDI
EA189
Is there maybe anything new?
Referring to "upgrade DMFs"?
Basically.... I destroyed now my 2nd gearbox due to SMF.
The first time I was using a really light SMF, combined with a clutch plate, which was meant for DMF,
so literally no vibration filtering. Didnt took too long, till the first gear failed, but I kept driving,
because its my daily driver and on some point you get used to shift without synchros.... like,
if I take my friends with me, they are like: cant really notice that you dont have synchros anymore
(lots of double clutching and rev matching).

After it was I nice day, I changed gearbox and used the SRE kit (again SMF), the SRE SMF was
much heavier than my other one and the springs in the clutch plate are really big.
The rattle in idle and while driving was much quieter with the SRE kit and I hought.
Okay. Maybe I get lucky with that. Hmmmm.. sadly not. 3rd gear synchro dead again,
but this time it took at least 2 years of driving. Other gears are still fine.

Now... Im will soon rebuild my gearbox (or rather said the synchro) and in this occasion, I want
to go back to DMF, even I have to get rid of that nice torque.....

So my question is... is there any DMF out there which can take torque?
Or do we still have to use the "stock flywheel", because there is no good replacement?

Best regards.
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
No upgrades exist for the DMF, best solution is to choose a turbo large enough that doesn't make so much torque below 2200rpm. It's not that DMFs can't take the torque, they just don't like it when it's below that 2200rpm range.
 

DivineChaos

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Location
Minnesota
TDI
mk6 jetta sportwagen tdi
Is there maybe anything new?
Referring to "upgrade DMFs"?
Basically.... I destroyed now my 2nd gearbox due to SMF.
The first time I was using a really light SMF, combined with a clutch plate, which was meant for DMF,
so literally no vibration filtering. Didnt took too long, till the first gear failed, but I kept driving,
because its my daily driver and on some point you get used to shift without synchros.... like,
if I take my friends with me, they are like: cant really notice that you dont have synchros anymore
(lots of double clutching and rev matching).

After it was I nice day, I changed gearbox and used the SRE kit (again SMF), the SRE SMF was
much heavier than my other one and the springs in the clutch plate are really big.
The rattle in idle and while driving was much quieter with the SRE kit and I hought.
Okay. Maybe I get lucky with that. Hmmmm.. sadly not. 3rd gear synchro dead again,
but this time it took at least 2 years of driving. Other gears are still fine.

Now... Im will soon rebuild my gearbox (or rather said the synchro) and in this occasion, I want
to go back to DMF, even I have to get rid of that nice torque.....

So my question is... is there any DMF out there which can take torque?
Or do we still have to use the "stock flywheel", because there is no good replacement?

Best regards.
Put a fluiddamper on it. It'll help.
 

Xtremefunky

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2022
Location
Germany
TDI
EA189
No upgrades exist for the DMF, best solution is to choose a turbo large enough that doesn't make so much torque below 2200rpm. It's not that DMFs can't take the torque, they just don't like it when it's below that 2200rpm range.
OkayOkay. Gotchu. At which rpm do you think, can a normal DMF take around 650Nm?

Put a fluiddamper on it. It'll help.
I heard that a lot. Is there any how to do it?
Or which one I need to buy? And where does it get mounted?
Like I´m a complete noob, when it comes to fuilddampers. Really like 0 idea.
Help would be appreciated!
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
FWIW, the Fluidampr did not provide a solution to the issue with the synchros. It did however help with DMF shudder.
@Xtremefunky the limit for DMF based on other's experiences on the forums (myself included) was somewhere in the 400-425Nm of torque but below 2200rpm. I currently am around 500Nm but it's all the way up at 2800-3000rpm and the DMF is perfectly fine.
 

DivineChaos

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Location
Minnesota
TDI
mk6 jetta sportwagen tdi
OkayOkay. Gotchu. At which rpm do you think, can a normal DMF take around 650Nm?



I heard that a lot. Is there any how to do it?
Or which one I need to buy? And where does it get mounted?
Like I´m a complete noob, when it comes to fuilddampers. Really like 0 idea.
Help would be appreciated!
It's just a fluid filled harmonic balancer. When you remove the dmf you gotta add a fluiddamper or you'll eat the trans.
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT & 2017 GMC Canyon CCLB ATX 2.8 Duramax
CR170 DMF with Sachs SRE clutch kit, they have organic and metallic disks. Darkside sells the kit.

Top it off with a TDI fluidampr for insurance. IAbed and Whitbread make custom units for the TDI.

Fill gearbox with a 50/50 blend of Redline MTLV and superlight shockproof gear oil. 100% SLSP May be to notchy depending on how cold it gets where you live.


Is there maybe anything new?
Referring to "upgrade DMFs"?
Basically.... I destroyed now my 2nd gearbox due to SMF.
The first time I was using a really light SMF, combined with a clutch plate, which was meant for DMF,
so literally no vibration filtering. Didnt took too long, till the first gear failed, but I kept driving,
because its my daily driver and on some point you get used to shift without synchros.... like,
if I take my friends with me, they are like: cant really notice that you dont have synchros anymore
(lots of double clutching and rev matching).

After it was I nice day, I changed gearbox and used the SRE kit (again SMF), the SRE SMF was
much heavier than my other one and the springs in the clutch plate are really big.
The rattle in idle and while driving was much quieter with the SRE kit and I hought.
Okay. Maybe I get lucky with that. Hmmmm.. sadly not. 3rd gear synchro dead again,
but this time it took at least 2 years of driving. Other gears are still fine.

Now... Im will soon rebuild my gearbox (or rather said the synchro) and in this occasion, I want
to go back to DMF, even I have to get rid of that nice torque.....

So my question is... is there any DMF out there which can take torque?
Or do we still have to use the "stock flywheel", because there is no good replacement?

Best regards.
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Stay with the organic disc on the SRE kit unless you think you're going over 400ft-lbs. It's buttery smooth in comparison to the sintered disc.
Also, no need for anything other than OE fluid in these boxes. Not saying others won't work, but OE works totally well.
I tried the fluid cocktail with Fluidampr and still didn't make it 15k miles on my car.
 

adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
My 2 cents: I had a b6 Audi A4, AWX engine and 5 speed 02M gearbox, fitted a TTV racing CrMoli smf and southbend stage 3 OFE/feta metallic clutch, gearbox lasted 3 k miles before sincro broke on 3rd gear…I would not advise on a SMF kit on most VAG engines and definitely not on CR regardless is transverse or longitudinal ! If it has a DMF, stay with it !
 
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