2010 TDI golf confirmed for North America

[schmitty]

I don't really care about the change in name but will the inside geometries be any different. I would like the cargo room to stay the same but if it decreases to the size of the Vibe, 3 Speed or Matrix I will be looking elsewhere.

 

[donfromnaples]

Sorry Narf. Missed the whole Canadian connection. Obviously, the Yaris is a much better deal in the states compared to the Fit. Obviously, they are about even in Canada depending on model and options and like you stated personal tastes.

 

[TornadoRed]

Sorry Narf. Missed the whole Canadian connection. Obviously, the Yaris is a much better deal in the states compared to the Fit. Obviously, they are about even in Canada depending on model and options and like you stated personal tastes.

Through the Yaris is usually cheaper than the Fit, it would not be accurate to say that it's a better deal. The Fit is, by all reports, superior in every respect, and as such it is entitled to carry a slightly higher selling price.

 

[LRTDI]

Looked at VW Uk site. The Golf wagon looks exactly like the Jetta Wagon. Except the badge.

Marketing change?

 

[frugality]

Looked at VW Uk site. The Golf wagon looks exactly like the Jetta Wagon. Except the badge.

Marketing change?

They've had Golf Estates in Europe for a while. Like this 2002 Golf Estate, which is the same as our A4 Jetta Wagons (which were produced in Germany), only with Golf sheet metal up front:

Now that the A5 Golf has basically the same front sheet metal as the A5 Jetta, Golf Wagon = Jetta Wagon. And it's produced in Mexico and exported to Europe.

The Golf name has more 'street cred' in Europe. In Germany, the Jetta is considered an old man's car.

In the U.S., the Jetta name has more 'street cred', and the Golf is seen as a cheap econobox. It's an old prejudice from the days of the Dodge Omni and the AMC Pacer that we have yet to shake here.

So VW sells the same car with the names that have the best 'street cred', for marketing purposes.

 

[donfromnaples]

Through the Yaris is usually cheaper than the Fit, it would not be accurate to say that it's a better deal. The Fit is, by all reports, superior in every respect, and as such it is entitled to carry a slightly higher selling price.

Equally equipped, the Yaris is not usually cheaper than the Fit. It is always cheaper. If you call approximately $3500 a slightly higher selling price, then more power to you because you are obviously fairly wealthy. If shopping for basic transportation (a true economy car), then I can not see paying a 23% higher price for a Honda Fit. The price difference is too great for a basic economy car in this price range. I also noticed the Fit is as slow as a 150 year old turtle climbing Mount Everest, taking 12 seconds to hit 60 mph. The Fit is superior in braking distances, handling aspects, and an extra 3 cubic feet of interior volume. This is not worth the price of admission to me.

 

[NarfBLAST]

That may have been the old fit, the second generation fit does 0-60 in 8.3 seconds according to MotorTrend: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0809_2009_honda_fit_sport_quick_test/index.html

p.s. before you say that is the sport, fyi all fits have the same engine and 5speed manual available: http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/Models/Fit/2009/Specs?L=E

 

[TornadoRed]

The Fit is 200 pounds heavier, has two more doors, scores better in crash tests (Side Impact Front, Fit 5 stars and Yaris 3 stars; Side Impact Rear, Fit 4 stars and Yaris 3 stars), has 11 additional horsepower.

Fit comes with 15" wheels, Yaris with 14", this might explain better handling by Fit. Fit has split rear bench seat, Yaris does not. Fit has power windows, locks, and mirrors; optional on Yaris. Fit has AM/FM/CD/MP3, optional on Yaris.

Fit has 1" more headroom, front and rear. More than 1" additional shoulder room, front and rear. 1.5" more hip room in front, 4.6" more hip room in back. 1" more leg room in front, almost 1" more leg room in back. Fit has 20.6 cubic feet of luggage space, the Yaris only 9.3 cubic feet.

Fit has rear wiper and rear defogger, optional on Yaris.

The price difference between base models is $2500-2700. The Yaris is likely to be discounted, the Fit is likely to sell for MSRP. The Fit will probably have higher resale value.

In every respect the Fit is the superior car. It has LOTS more standard features, is roomier, and is safer. If you go to Edmunds.com and look at the "total cost to own", the five-year total cost is identical.

So if you are going to pay just as much to own either a Fit or a Yaris, why would you want to own a Yaris?

 

[DPM]

Image?
In the UK, the Yaris sells extremely well to all demographics. The Fit? Comparatively few are sold, and the average buyer seems to be aged 70+...

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Image?
In the UK, the Yaris sells extremely well to all demographics. The Fit? Comparatively few are sold, and the average buyer seems to be aged 70+...

Probably has to do with the available engine lineup.

The Yaris has a 68hp 3-cylinder base engine. Which is what most people who buy a sensible Japanese subcompact want. If they want a long-distance commuter, they probably want a small diesel. Which the Yaris offers too.
The Fit on the other hand comes with 90 hp base or an optional 100hp engine. No small gasser + No diesel option = sales failure in Europe

 

[cjamescook]

The Fit is 200 pounds heavier, has two more doors, scores better in crash tests (Side Impact Front, Fit 5 stars and Yaris 3 stars; Side Impact Rear, Fit 4 stars and Yaris 3 stars), has 11 additional horsepower.

Fit comes with 15" wheels, Yaris with 14", this might explain better handling by Fit. Fit has split rear bench seat, Yaris does not. Fit has power windows, locks, and mirrors; optional on Yaris. Fit has AM/FM/CD/MP3, optional on Yaris.

Fit has 1" more headroom, front and rear. More than 1" additional shoulder room, front and rear. 1.5" more hip room in front, 4.6" more hip room in back. 1" more leg room in front, almost 1" more leg room in back. Fit has 20.6 cubic feet of luggage space, the Yaris only 9.3 cubic feet.

Fit has rear wiper and rear defogger, optional on Yaris.

The price difference between base models is $2500-2700. The Yaris is likely to be discounted, the Fit is likely to sell for MSRP. The Fit will probably have higher resale value.

In every respect the Fit is the superior car. It has LOTS more standard features, is roomier, and is safer. If you go to Edmunds.com and look at the "total cost to own", the five-year total cost is identical.

Tornado-

I really appreciate this level of analysis. Do you (or anyone else) have such a comparison between Fit and Golf or Polo?

The reason I ask is (a) walking by someone's parked Fit, I was impressed by back room with the seats folded down flat, (b) the mfg. webpage impresses me with the additional interior features and storage options, (c) I need a replacement vehicle in the next year or so, and (d) while I am a longtime fan of VW hatchbacks, I am less willing to sacrifice interior design for brand loyalty.

On the other hand, VW diesel technology blows the Fit away.

Cheers and thanks in advance,
-Jim

 

[TornadoRed]

Tornado-

I really appreciate this level of analysis. Do you (or anyone else) have such a comparison between Fit and Golf or Polo?

The reason I ask is (a) walking by someone's parked Fit, I was impressed by back room with the seats folded down flat, (b) the mfg. webpage impresses me with the additional interior features and storage options, (c) I need a replacement vehicle in the next year or so, and (d) while I am a longtime fan of VW hatchbacks, I am less willing to sacrifice interior design for brand loyalty.

On the other hand, VW diesel technology blows the Fit away.

www.edmunds.com , and you can do your own comparisons.

However, you have to remember that the Mk6 Golf TDI is still 6 months away. This link, posted earlier in the thread, shows most of the information about the new Golf TDI. http://media.vw.com/article_download.cfm?article_id=10477

But no one has any idea of the price. My guess is that, with all the extra goodies that they are loading it up with as standard equipment, it will cost $3000-$3500 more than the basic 2.5-liter gas-engine Golf. And the base Golf should be in the $16k-17k range. So $20k+ for the Golf TDI compared to $15k-16k for the base Fit.

If you need a replacement vehicle, let me suggest one of the many used TDIs being offered right now. There are some great cars currently offered at $3k-4k less than what they would have brought last year, but barely anyone is even expressing any interest.

 

[TornadoRed]

Based on historic resale value, even though the 2010 Golf TDI will sell for many thousands more than the Honda Fit, the total cost of ownership for the first five years will probably be about the same -- just as the TCO for the Fit and Yaris are the same.

Depreciation is part of the cost of ownership, MSRP is not.

 

[donfromnaples]

Yes the Fit comes with 15" rims as standard while the Yaris comes with 14" rims standard. Yes the Fit is 200 pounds more (not necessarily a good thing for economy). The Fit and Yaris can both be had as four door hatchbacks, crash tests results are not accurately reported by you. The Fit gets 5 ,5, 5, 4, and 4 stars while the Yaris gets 4, 4, 4, 4 and 4 stars in Front Driver, Front Passenger, Side Driver, Side Passenger and Rollover crash testing. 11 more hp means practically nothing while the 106 ft. lbs of torque on the Fit and the 103 ft. lbs. of torque on the 200 pound lighter Yaris sounds better. The Yaris also comes without charge with an AM/FM/CD/MP3/WMA player. 5 year cost of Yaris is $21,872 while the 5 year cost of the Fit is $24,487 *(source MotorTrend.com) and the Yaris has a $1000 rebate. And yes the rear seats can fold on the Yaris too. As stated, the base prices are currently greater than $3500. Is the Yaris a lot cheaper? Yes both in price and feel. I was simply offering an opinion about an affordable economy car. The Fit has an average selling price of $17,208. I do not see that as an affordable economy car.

The Fit is 200 pounds heavier, has two more doors, scores better in crash tests (Side Impact Front, Fit 5 stars and Yaris 3 stars; Side Impact Rear, Fit 4 stars and Yaris 3 stars), has 11 additional horsepower.

Fit comes with 15" wheels, Yaris with 14", this might explain better handling by Fit. Fit has split rear bench seat, Yaris does not. Fit has power windows, locks, and mirrors; optional on Yaris. Fit has AM/FM/CD/MP3, optional on Yaris.

Fit has 1" more headroom, front and rear. More than 1" additional shoulder room, front and rear. 1.5" more hip room in front, 4.6" more hip room in back. 1" more leg room in front, almost 1" more leg room in back. Fit has 20.6 cubic feet of luggage space, the Yaris only 9.3 cubic feet.

Fit has rear wiper and rear defogger, optional on Yaris.

The price difference between base models is $2500-2700. The Yaris is likely to be discounted, the Fit is likely to sell for MSRP. The Fit will probably have higher resale value.

In every respect the Fit is the superior car. It has LOTS more standard features, is roomier, and is safer. If you go to Edmunds.com and look at the "total cost to own", the five-year total cost is identical.

So if you are going to pay just as much to own either a Fit or a Yaris, why would you want to own a Yaris?

 

[TornadoRed]

Don, I used Edmunds.com as a source, you used Motor Trend. I do not know which is more reliable, but I prefer Edmunds.

 

[LRTDI]

All media outlets can make mistakes aka erroneous assumptions.

 

[DPM]

EuroNCAP rates the Yaris higher than the Jazz.

 

[TornadoRed]

EuroNCAP rates the Yaris higher than the Jazz.

Europeans get different engine options and presumably a different set of standard features.

 

[DieselCruz]

I'm glad to hear the TDI Golf/Rabbit is coming back. The TDI Jetta sportwagon is nice, but I prefer my Golf over a Jetta wagon any day.

 

[J double R]

In the U.S., the Jetta name has more 'street cred', and the Golf is seen as a cheap econobox. It's an old prejudice from the days of the Dodge Omni and the AMC Pacer that we have yet to shake here

speak for yourself, please.

 

[kcfoxie]

I'm willing to pay $4000 difference for the safer crash test in the Honda, and I see more Fits than yaris on the road in the Carolinas, so I guess my thinking is shared.

We had a dump truck fall on a civic, driver bruised her lung but otherwise had no broken bones. She'd be dead in a Toyota. Except for their Sienna, which was the heralding replacement for the dead trap they called the Previa, they score lower in crash tests than Hondas.

I think that's why Hondas tend to weigh more...

 

[frugality]

speak for yourself, please.

That's one of the most asinine comments I've ever seen here.

 

[TornadoRed]

That's one of the most asinine comments I've ever seen here.

He described the anti-hatchback bias as "an old prejudice from the days of the Dodge Omni and the AMC Pacer". Are you saying there is no prejudice, or that it's justified? Weird, since you've got a Golf.

 

[frugality]

I know. J double R's comment makes no sense. I have a Golf, as per my signature. So obviously I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking of the bias against hatchbacks that still exists in America, how they're seen as somehow lesser/cheaper than sedans. The A4 Golf and Jetta had the exact same passenger space and the exact same cargo space, but the Golf sold WAY less in the U.S. than the Jetta because it's perceived as smaller, cheaper, and less 'classy' somehow.

I've owned 2 sedans -- a '77 AMC Matador (the big 4-dr. variety) and a '92 Mazda Protege. Most of the cars I've owned were hatchbacks -- my current Golf, a '79 Rabbit, an '80 Mazda GLC, an '88 Ford Festiva. And a '73 Baja Bug, but that's technically a hatch-front, not a hatchback.

 

[TornadoRed]

I'm speaking of the bias against hatchbacks that still exists in America, how they're seen as somehow lesser/cheaper than sedans. The A4 Golf and Jetta had the exact same passenger space and the exact same cargo space, but the Golf sold WAY less in the U.S. than the Jetta because it's perceived as smaller, cheaper, and less 'classy' somehow.

Well, it's true that if you wanted a leather interior or other upscale amenities, you had to buy a Jetta or at least a GTI. Everywhere else in the world, the GTI is a Golf; but in North America it's always been promoted as a totally different vehicle. And everywhere else, the Jetta wagon was/is the Golf Estate or Golf Variant. So part of the reason for lower Golf sales is that VWoa and VoC cannibalized Golf sales to promote the Jetta and GTI.

There are other factors. VAG decided to build Jettas in Mexico, but Golfs were built in Brazil or Germany and the exchange rate meant either they could not price them competitively or they would have lost even more on each one than apparently they did. Remember, a few years ago VW was losing at least several hundred million dollars every year. I suspect even now every Golf is being sold at a loss, which is why VWoA pushes the Jetta primarily.

People do buy hatchbacks, because they have high utility but also because many of them are inexpensive. OTOH, lots of small sedans are inexpensive too, yet that doesn't mean all sedans are cheap or down-market.

Cars come in all shapes and sizes, but it seems to me that the sedan/coupe style makes less sense in a small car because space is more at a premium in small cars. In a bigger car, it's okay to waste some of the space because there's more of it. In a smaller car, it's a challenge to create more interior space... and the hatchback/small wagon design is the easiest way to create more interior space.

The challenge, then, is to make the hatchback look good and be fun to drive. VW and other European makers know how to do this, and Honda knows how to do this. Mazda knows, Suburu sort of knows. Toyota got close with the Matrix, but is it really fun to drive? Not that I know of.

 

[Budrow 3]

I just found this on edmunds. not sure if it'll stay these prices, but they look right to me.

2.5 2 door $17,490
2.5 4 door $18,090

TDI 2 door $21,990
TDI 4 door $22,590

GTI 2 door $23,290
GTI 4 door $23,890

so when can we order them? i'm ready now!

 

[TornadoRed]

I just found this on edmunds. not sure if it'll stay these prices, but they look right to me.

2.5 2 door $17,490
2.5 4 door $18,090

TDI 2 door $21,990
TDI 4 door $22,590

GTI 2 door $23,290
GTI 4 door $23,890

so when can we order them? i'm ready now!

That's about right, I guess.

TDI comes with Sirius satellite radio, 2.5 doesn't.
TDI comes with fog lights, 2.5 doesn't.
TDI comes with 17" wheels and performance tires, 2.5 comes with all-season tires on 15" wheels (probably steelies)
TDI comes with sport suspension, 2.5 doesn't.
TDI comes with 6-speed tranny, 2.5 only a 5-speed.
TDI comes with some interior niceties like center console, leather-wrapped steering wheel and leather shift knob. 2.5 doesn't.

The TDI engine has always added $1200-1800 compared to the base engine. Now it's more. The base Jetta S currently has a $17,515 MSRP, the SE $20,095. The Jetta TDI has all the SE features at $22,270 -- so about $2200 difference resulting from the TDI engine option.

The other $2300 must be (primarily) the satellite radio, the transmission, interior stuff like floor mats and console, and of course the "TDI" badge on the back.

 

[SnowCub]

Cars come in all shapes and sizes, but it seems to me that the sedan/coupe style makes less sense in a small car because space is more at a premium in small cars.

I vote Golf because it has 1 inch more headroom. Yay, I can see out the windshield instead of staring at the visor. I can't wait to drive one of these.

 

[RobbieTDI]

I just found this on edmunds. not sure if it'll stay these prices, but they look right to me.

2.5 2 door $17,490
2.5 4 door $18,090

TDI 2 door $21,990
TDI 4 door $22,590

GTI 2 door $23,290
GTI 4 door $23,890

so when can we order them? i'm ready now!

a little dissapointing to me, but like Tornado said, fairly realistic. Is this the first time the base TDI golf is priced higher than the base TDI jetta?

The only problem is that if fuel prices stay relatively low, i dont see people paying GTI prices for a TDI. The GTI comes with the same options plus HID headlights, which can easily equate for the $1,300 difference, so essentially the cars are priced about the same. I think they would do better off with a base model TDI in the 20k range.

 

[andytoby]

What is difference between HID headlights and Xenon headlights. I recall reading that the new Golf will have xenon headlights as an option. Correct me if I am wrong but xenon headlights are what are in my Fathers 2008 R32.