2009 TDI's $21,990--Certified 38-44mpg by third-party not EPA

[Dusty Sidewinds]

MPG aside, very few ricers drive as well as a German VW. I learned that when I purchased my A5 diesel Jetta and won't have to learn it again. German cars are much more driver machines. So for me the MPG is just one part of the experience and although important will not override poor vehicle dynamics.

All cars seem to be compromises. Just identify what's most important for you and look for it in your purchase. I'm quite happy with my A5 Jetta but would move up to a new one to get out from under the old DMF and for some fuel useage improvement.

 

[lupin..the..3rd]

Not going to matter. 99% of buyers will see the EPA estimates on the sticker and walk away. And then some of the 1% will do a little more research and see the higher AMCI #'s and think "sure, want a different answer, go ask someone else" and walk away. With a 20-25% price premium of RUL to Diesel currently and TDIs arriving in August when the diesel price typically goes up, it's gonna be a hard sell once the VW enthusiasts buy up the initial cars. You will see diesels sitting on lots through the fall, winter and spring as the price premium for diesel fuel hits +$1.50 or more. Unfortunately, hybrid sales are going to skyrocket and trump diesel until the fuel price gets back to "normal" vs. RUL if there will ever even be parity again.

Wow, you're so far off base here it's just silly! Those numbers are not disappointing in the slightest to someone who looking to get out of a Ford Explorer that gets 13/18 mpg.

When you consider that the new Smart Car, basically a rolling speed bump, is EPA rated for 41 on the highway, the much bigger, much nicer, much more comfortable, Jetta TDI hitting that same number is going to be mighty appealing.

Like every previous TDI, the dealers will sell them all for full sticker price because they have way more buyers than inventory.

 

[donfromnaples]

Don't count on fuel cell vehicles to be sold to the masses in 2012. It is going to take longer for an infrastructure (refueling stations) to be set up.

 

[frugality]

While I am happy about the introduction of 50-state TDI and wish every success to VW, I believe the introduction is late.

It couldn't have been earlier. CARB ratcheted up emissions regulations, and the only way any diesel manufacturer could pass it is with ULSD, which has only been available for a year or so.

Saying VW is late is a glass-half-empty view. VW is about tied with Mercedes to be the first to offer a clean diesel car. If VW is late, what is Honda? Hyundai? Ford? Hello? <crickets>

And regarding hydrogen fuel cells -- they will be as popular as CNG (compressed natural gas) cars. How many CNG cars have you seen on the road? Maybe you've seen a taxi or two. Maybe the local utility or government agency has a small fleet. But very few CNG passenger cars have been sold. With no filling stations, hydrogen fuel cells will not take off, either.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

About 15/85 to 10/90 city/highway. These are averages, and by no means, best tanks. best tank would be about 6 with the Passat (except on road trips, 5.4), and 4.9 on the Jetta. Can't really say about the Jetta on long road trips. Only did one with it, and it was packed to the gills with bikes and roof rack on top, so mileage sucked.

FWIW, my current Passat 2.0T wagon's summer average is 7.0, which is not bad at all for a good-sized gasser, driven under conditions that would net about 6-6.3 with the TDI

 

[only120xs]

I find it both funny and annoying that my local dealership just told me (less than 30 minutes ago) that they didn't have ANY pricing/options information. He said, "they are normally $2-4k more than a regular Jetta."

Neither of the dealerships near me have their demo yet...

 

[atc98002]

Wonder how hard it will be to get these 30HP back once these cars are out of warranty?

I'm not sure this is accurate. I seem to remember that VW offered two TDIs in Europe, one with 140hp and one with 170. That might be the confusion about "losing" 30hp, when it could be two different engines.

 

[eb2143]

When you consider that the new Smart Car, basically a rolling speed bump, is EPA rated for 41 on the highway, the much bigger, much nicer, much more comfortable, Jetta TDI hitting that same number is going to be mighty appealing.

That's the truth! not to mention the added power the diesel has over the smart.

Some of the comparisons people are making are silly. "40 mpg? my Corolla can get that!" A Corolla is not a 236 ft/lbs Volkswagen Jetta! I do agree, however, that a 1.6L 90 hp CR in a Rabbit or Jetta for ultimate economy should be an option. Oh well.

Now the talk is about hydrogen fuel cell technology with Honda already introducinmg a limited number of those cars(about 200) and GM will be mass producing in 2012

GM mass producing what in 2012? Hydrogen fuel cell cars?! I don't think so. The fuel cell in the Hondas costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to produce, and the hydrogen infratructure is non-existant. Hydrogen is a looong way off...not to say we shouldn't keep developing it..

 

[janjan]

Thanks Lupin!! The TDI Jetta will be a huge difference from our Ford Escape and Nissan Titan..and in this case it wasn't a matter of the "best mileage rated car" , its damn better then what we have, and its a VW which I have owned in the past and I am ready to return to.

I would never shop for a car solely on the mileage, you have to consider cost of the car, repairs, distance to dealer etc and one must never underestimate the fun value.

I am getting a little tired of this TDI Club forum. Every single thread is the same thing..VW vs Honda vs Toyota or whatever else is out there...this is TDI forum not a "what is the best mileage rated car forum" lets stick to the reason we are all here...

rant over

 

[Jibeho]

Wow 21,990

I just dug out the window sticker for my 2000 NB GLS with the Lux Pkg In November 1999 I paid sticker for this car at $19,950! I can now get a 2009 Jetta for just 2k more!

BTW the sticker EPA on it is 42-49

 

[Suns_PSD]

I can't believe some are complainong about those MPG #'s. They are great for a full sized sedan.

As I'm sure many know, the difference between getting 40 mpg and 50 mpg is actually very little in terms of $ (as if anyone else is getting 50 mpg). At 10,000 miles/ year at current diesel prices I calculate about a $200 cost savings per year between 40 mpg and 50 mpg.

It's not the same as going from say 12 mpg to 22 mpg. (cost savings approximately $1800 for the same annual mileage and fuel cost)

 

[tdibigd]

Like every previous TDI, the dealers will sell them all for full sticker price because they have way more buyers than inventory.

Perhaps at first because of the "gotta have it now" brand loyal types, but not after a few months. I paid $2K+ under sticker for my 2001 GLS...they won't get MSRP on them for long. You're witnessing the Fiero/Miata/Mini syndrome (albeit on a much smaller scale).

 

[T'sTDI]

It gets away from the "clean diesel" and some people will snear at this but eliminating that DPF would earn you the fuel economy you all had hoped for.

DPF's reared its ugly head with the newer 6.4's Ford just manufactured. These diesels went from 20 mpg in the earlier years to 10 mpg if not worse on the 6.4. The absolute best I've heard with a stock truck was 16 mpg, typically getting 11's and the worst 6mpg towing . It was so bad that some ford shops were still willing to honor warranty even after a DPF delete because sales dropped tremendously. I'm sure rising diesel prices had a lot to do with that, not only that, gasser counterparts are getting similar fuel economy (pretty sad)
Even sadder....UPS has gone to gas motors in their newer shipping trucks.

Anways...Performance took ahold and came up with the DPF delete and chip tune to eliminate constant regeneration and keep the CELs out. Not only did the trucks lose a lot of weight, get their power back, but the fuel economy increased dramatically. They are back up in the 20's and I've heard of 23 with a chip tune.

I can see broken in TDI engines with a DPF delete pipe would net 60 mpg on the highway like these cars of ours now getting 50 mpg pretty much consistently.

I look to see DPF deletes in the performance section in the next 3 or 4 years once the performance market takes ahold. Rocketman will be writing DPF delete tunes, I almost guarantee it. More so performance though, I think these will be important in getting extreme fuel economy numbers.

 

[TornadoRed]

DPF's reared its ugly head with the newer 6.4's Ford just manufactured. These diesels went from 20 mpg in the earlier years to 10 mpg if not worse on the 6.4. The absolute best I've heard with a stock truck was 16 mpg, typically getting 11's and the worst 6mpg towing . It was so bad that some ford shops were still willing to honor warranty even after a DPF delete because sales dropped tremendously.
(snip)
Anways...Performance took ahold and came up with the DPF delete and chip tune to eliminate constant regeneration and keep the CELs out. Not only did the trucks lose a lot of weight, get their power back, but the fuel economy increased dramatically. They are back up in the 20's and I've heard of 23 with a chip tune.

I can see broken in TDI engines with a DPF delete pipe would net 60 mpg on the highway like these cars of ours now getting 50 mpg pretty much consistently.

Thanks for the information about the Powerstrokes -- it may not be 100% relevant to our situation, but it's the best comparison currently available.

I suspect some TDI owners will go the route you suggest. Most will probably be satisfied with lower mileage, and probably in some states with annual inspections there might be some worries about disabling any pollution devices.

I'm not in the market for a new TDI, but if I bought one then it wouldn't be long before I offered for sale a complete DPF in like-new condition.

I don't think the DPF cuts into power, and certainly not 30 hp. It only affects fuel mileage, by using some of the fuel to keep the DPF clean.

 

[shearwater_man]

Particulates are pollution

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but it's not cool with me if people delete the particulate filters for selfish mileage gains. Particulates are really bad for you and your kids and other people. That's a fact. So, let's hold diesels to the same standard as other cars. Perhaps hybrids are a good advance since they have better mileage by all measures and they have lower harmful emissions.

 

[TornadoRed]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but it's not cool with me if people delete the particulate filters for selfish mileage gains. Particulates are really bad for you and your kids and other people. That's a fact. So, let's hold diesels to the same standard as other cars. Perhaps hybrids are a good advance since they have better mileage by all measures and they have lower harmful emissions.

I understand your POV, and would also like to mention that deleting the DPF will not be cheap. It will require new hardware and software. So only a relative handful of 2009-or-later TDI owners will be tempted to go in that direction.

Someone will have to try it, however, just to see how much fuel it saves.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I've been really surprised by how low some of the fuel economy figures are for the new diesel pickups: I saw in Diesel Truck a Silverado was getting 12 at 75 MPH, 8 when towing at the same speed, or something like that. That would be discouraging.

 

[n1465r]

I just did a 1200 mi trip with my 04 3500 Sprinter combined weight 14500 lbs. carrying 7800 lbs of steel and about 1000 lbs of misc. stuff. It did 17.8 mpg in the Ozarks and 20.2 from St.Louis to eastern Ohio. And in eastern Ohio with a empty truck I have gotten 770 mi on one tank giving 28.1 MPG My 00 Jetta has given me as high as 60.1 MPG. My wife is chomping at the bit for the new one.

Doug

 

[tdidieselbobny]

The diesel magazines I've read lately-ones that have tested the new clean diesel pickups-have shown that all the new diesels w/ emissions get bad mileage-especially the Powerstroke.That's why new 07 pre-emission semi-trucks are more expensive than new 09 models.My boss priced out a Volvo daycab-low 90's for an 09 and IIRC around $106k for an 07.

 

[brucetmoose]

why I don't like hydrogen and it's not why you think - and other ramblings

I saw the postings on hydrogen and while I somewhat agree with them, I then found out how they are making it.

What's the easiest compound to strip hydrogen atoms off of ? Certainly not Oxygen, althought that's the cleanest ( the after product that is left is a very good thing - we breathe it and it would offset CO2 ), it's an uphill energy battle.

So instead, what do you use ??? Hydrocarbons. Hmmmm - the same stuff gas and diesel fuel is made out of. Yeah, that's the ticket. And what you have left is a sticky black chunk of pencil. Yeah, that's real usable.

Infrastructure wise - hydrogen is more volatile than gas. In this age of lawsuit mania, companies aren't going to be willing to invest in it if the cost of the lawsuits exceeds the income of selling it. I often wonder if Aspirin and gas had been discovered now would they even make it to the market? Aspirin - no - because it's a natural compound that cannot be patented. Thus, no company would pay 700 million ( yes, 700 million ) to get it through the FDA. The only reason we have it is that it was invented before the FDA and thus didn't have to through the certification process. Ditto with hydrogen and the EPA and other agencies. in the early 1900's, yeah, it might have made it - but now forget it.

Back to MPG - my mileage did vastly improve with age. I was getting about 38/44 when I bought it and around 70k it started to get better. Now with almost 150k I'm getting 44/50. The 44 is my "city" driving, sometimes it's close to 42, sometimes it's closer to 46. However ... My 1988 Jetta got 40 MPG on GAS tooling around on the same circuit. I still work in the same place and drive to/from the same places.

It's my observance that the heavier weight is the safety frame. I can tell you the doors on my 2002 are a lot beefier than the doors on the '88. The '88 was an ultralight and it was huge. I wish I could transplant the 2002 engine into the 1988. I honestly think I would have cracked the 50 barrier and got 55/65.

So here's a question to the panel - has anyone thought of a way to port these engines into something like a Mark IV. I'm not talking about the VW Mark IV, I'm talking about those replicar kits that you make out of an old VW bug body - A friend of my parent's had one and it was very light - due to the fiberglass body. Ditto with a Corvette frame - it's a bolt-on - anyone thought of bolting a TDI engine to that ?

I think the US would be ripe for a light weight car, if it got 65/75 MPG. Why VW does not sell the Lupo here is a total mystery. All I had to hear was 81 mpg and I was salivating at the thought. You see people driving these mini-coopers around - so it's not the size. All I want is a lightweight car with large interior and trunk space - ditto the '88 Jetta.

 

[donDavide]

Definitely a Newbie

Perhaps hybrids are a good advance since they have better mileage by all measures and they have lower harmful emissions.

??? You gotta be kidding me! In the real wold the Tdi is better. Read through the forum. There are plenty of threads and posts on this topic

 

[oscarmv]

??? You gotta be kidding me! In the real wold the Tdi is better. Read through the forum. There are plenty of threads and posts on this topic

I'll give hybrids the city advantage. Also the totally boring driving experience advantage.

 

[II_Kings_9_20]

I've been really surprised by how low some of the fuel economy figures are for the new diesel pickups: I saw in Diesel Truck a Silverado was getting 12 at 75 MPH, 8 when towing at the same speed, or something like that. That would be discouraging.

They are tuned for torque/towing not for economy.

 

[II_Kings_9_20]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but it's not cool with me if people delete the particulate filters for selfish mileage gains. Particulates are really bad for you and your kids and other people. That's a fact. So, let's hold diesels to the same standard as other cars. Perhaps hybrids are a good advance since they have better mileage by all measures and they have lower harmful emissions.

CNG is a better choice than any RUL/electric hybrid if we had the infrastructure. A CNG hybrid would be even better. Diesel electric hybrids may well be as green, efficient, and far more responsive than a RUL hybrid. I think the 2010 Prius will be a great package but a tried and true clean Diesel is a very reasonable alternative.

 

[Ted Hurst]

If some buyers are turned off by the price of diesel than I say all the more for the smart people that can do the math. I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the TDI is a long term lower cost solution.

 

[lupin..the..3rd]

I've been really surprised by how low some of the fuel economy figures are for the new diesel pickups: I saw in Diesel Truck a Silverado was getting 12 at 75 MPH, 8 when towing at the same speed, or something like that. That would be discouraging.

That's especially disappointing when you consider the Touareg V10 TDI delivers 21 mpg, and the GL320CDI gives 25 mpg.

 

[donDavide]

CNG is a better choice than any RUL/electric hybrid if we had the infrastructure. A CNG hybrid would be even better. Diesel electric hybrids may well be as green, efficient, and far more responsive than a RUL hybrid. I think the 2010 Prius will be a great package but a tried and true clean Diesel is a very reasonable alternative.

A few years ago while buying B20 @ Pentagon I spoke to a gentleman filling up a Crown Vic w/CNG and he said he couldn't even make to New Jersey on a fill up.

 

[donDavide]

That's especially disappointing when you consider the Touareg V10 TDI delivers 21 mpg, and the GL320CDI gives 25 mpg.

The K-5 Blazer/Tahoe/Jimmy/Yukon 6.2 and 6.5 turbo back in the day used to get 25-30mpg

 

[bombero]

I can't believe some are complainong about those MPG #'s. They are great for a full sized sedan.


Only thing is that the Jetta is not a full sized sedan.

 

[II_Kings_9_20]

A few years ago while buying B20 @ Pentagon I spoke to a gentleman filling up a Crown Vic w/CNG and he said he couldn't even make to New Jersey on a fill up.

Well that is interesting, the Civic CNG gets 24/36 here , compare that to a regular civic that gets 25/36 here. An inefficient POC like a Crown Vic won't become efficient on CNG. There is an implication by this dudes statement that if only he were running RUL he would make it to Jersey. Remember, ethanol does create a 25-30% gdrop in MPGs b/c of less energy (BTU) than gasoline, not so for CNG.