2009 2010 CR HPFP Adversely Affected by Lubricity > 460?

Elfnmagik

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Pawel, the 'piss poor' engineering comment is not in regard to vehicles operating in the EU market, but the US, which does in fact point to our understanding of the fuel differences. It's VW's responsibilty to engineer the pumps/systems to function with the fuel within the market they are selling or don't put it out for sale. If in fact lubrication, or the lack there of in US fuel, is determined to be the undelying factor in the failure of the pump and VW either just spec'd the same EU pump for the US market, or at best only coated certain areas but not all friction surfaces in contact with fuel requiring lubrication, then it IS poor engineering or the bean counters pinching pennies. And their statement that no additives should be used only possibly adds to the problem. Time will tell. The real travisty of it all is how VW is pawing this xit off on the customer in a backroom kinda way without providing actuall proof through a fuel sample analysis.
 
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pawel

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Elfnmagik said:
Pawel, the 'piss poor' engineering comment is not in regard to vehicles operating in the EU market, but the US, which does in fact point to our understanding of the fuel differences. It's VW's responsibilty to engineer the pumps/systems to function with the fuel within the market they are selling or don't put it out for sale. If in fact lubrication, or the lack there of in US fuel, is determined to be the undelying factor in the failure of the pump and VW either just spec'd the same EU pump for the US market, or at best only coated certain areas but not all friction surfaces in contact with fuel requiring lubrication, then it IS poor engineering or the bean counters pinching pennies. And their statement that no additives should be used only possibly adds to the problem. Time will tell. The real travisty of it all is how VW is pawing this xit off on the customer in a backroom kinda way without providing actuall proof through a fuel sample analysis.
Elf,

I agree with you 100% that selling a vehicle equipped with parts that were designed to work with a specific minimum requirements in one market and then selling same vehicle in a market which cannot meet those same minimum requirements is…. unethical, is governed by the good old dollar and plainly wrong. I wouldn’t call it a bad engineering though, because engineers who designed the part(s) probably had no say in sales.
 

Elfnmagik

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Well, as stated, they sure took the time to engineer the emissions for this market because it was vital to the selling pitch. Seems that maybe they gambled with thinking there might not be an issue with the pumps and US fuel. SURPRISE!

In any case, it shouldn't be the responsibilty of the owner, unless fuel IS contaminated AND a fuel analysis is conducted proving so and the results are presented to the owner. It is then that the owner could involve the store and insurance.
 
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GTIDan

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Some where within this forum I read that Bosch had engineered the HPFP for a life expectancy of around 750 thousand miles. If true.......who cares if you have a 25 percent or so reduction in the useful life? I mean at a 25 percent reduction your still going to get over 500 thousand miles out of the HPFP on your US car.

I think it's time to put things into perspective here and not get so all fired up. :)

Also Chevron, Conoco/Phillips and ARC0 (BP) all claim to have their fuel down to around 400/460 range........? Just because the standard may be 520 does not mean the majors can't do a better job and get it down to closer or yet better than the Euro standard.

Drive more and worry less and move on....
 
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pawel

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GTIDan said:
Some where within this forum I read that Bosch had engineered the HPFP for a life expectancy of around 750 thousand miles. If true.......who cares if you have a 25 percent or so reduction in the useful life? I mean at a 25 percent reduction your still going to get over 500 thousand miles out of the HPFP on your US car.

I think it's time to put things into perspective here and not get so all fired up. :)

Also Chevron, Conoco/Phillips and ARC0 (BP) all claim to have their fuel down to around 400/460 range........? Just because the standard may be 520 does not mean the majors can't do a better job and get it down to closer or yet better than the Euro standard.

Drive more and worry less and move on....
we don't have chevron, conoco here on east coast. did they show any lab tests
 

pawel

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Curkkic said:
If you get one just get the all inclusive extended warrenty and fear not. i think thats the simplest idea.
that's what I did, I got one for 5 yrs or 100,000 mi but it looks like it will expire in 18 months i just passed 62,000 mi mark on my TDI.
 

dweisel

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DanG144 said:
And I keep a car 20 years, not 5, and 300kmiles, not 100.
So I will do my best to make it last that long.
I don't go quite that long,but my last 3 vehicles all had over 200,000 on them and that just the kind of dependability I've came to expect from VW. Change the oil,oil filter,air filter and fuel filter then secondly deal with all the LITTLE quirks. Hope the 09/2010 and up have not developed new BIG quirks.
 
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nj1266

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MacBuckeye said:
PowerService
- keeps water suspended in the fuel or moves any "free" water back into the fuel so it
can be burned/ignited and ultimately removed from the fuel system
- minimizes free standing water from sitting in our tank.
- most likely doesn't need to be used with a water-separator system.
.
What about these other additives? Redline? Amsoil? Sta-bil? Schaeffer? Lubro Moly?
I looked at the PS Diesel Kleen website and it does not say if PS is an emulsifier or a de-mulsifier. Where did you find the info that DK is an emulsifier?

I am using Schaeffer DT2000 and it is certainly an emulsifier. I chose it over others partly for that reason and partly because the HFRR tests by Schaeffer and those by Spicer showed overlapping results.
 

DanG144

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A good read from Power Service
Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) has an antigen which prevents the fuel from gelling. It also has a detergent, cetane boost, lubricity, anti-icing, and corrosion package.

Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. The deicer can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.

Cetane will cause the fuel to ignite a split second sooner than fuel with low cetane. This will cause the engine to start faster and help the fuel to burn more completely and aid in fuel economy, reduce emissions and noise.

The detergent in DFS will help to keep the injectors clean which is the key to better fuel economy. The EMA (Engine Manufacturers Association) recommends the use of a detergent. Their research shows that low sulfur fuels have a tendency to form carbon deposits on fuel injectors. The DFS will prevent these deposits from forming. These deposits interfere with the fuel injector spray pattern, cause the engine to smoke, emit more emissions and reduce fuel economy.

Lubricity will help the fuel pump to last longer. The vast majority of fuel pumps in diesel engines are lubricated by the fuel and in the USA one-third of the fuels do not meet the minimum lubricity requirements. The DFS has enough lubricity to raise these fuels up to the minimum standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. The fuel pump manufacturers BOSCH, Delphi, Denso, Siemens and Stanadyne say that lubricity is the most valuable and crucial property of diesel fuel.

Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injectors to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions (even NOx) and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. The stability package helps the fuel to resist thermal breakdown which can cause the fuel to darken and form particulate materials which create gum residues in the fuel system.

Diesel Kleen is the only additive on the market that has effectively demonstrated the ability to reduce NOx (Nitrogen Oxides) which are the fine particles & ground level ozone often called Urban Smog. It will also reduce the other diesel emissions like black smoke, PM, CO, and HC. It also has the strongest detergent package on the market.

When it comes to water dispersal the following will apply.

A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.

Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel your are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy.

Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement do not contain demulsifiers, emulsifiers or alcohols.

Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier.

There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911. It takes a lot of water dispersant to take care of free water so it will take up a lot of room in a container.

If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. You might also use it once a month in the equipment during the winter just to be sure condensation doesn't build up in the system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a vehicle . Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem .

Diesel 911 does not contain any methyl or ethyl alcohols. It is a proprietary mixture containing Hydroxyl Compounds. These de-icers are used in many diesel fuel additives that are currently on the market.

It is also interesting to note that Power Service Products, Inc. is one of the few diesel fuel manufacturers that have their own chemical storage tanks, own lab and one of the most modern and automated production lines in the industry. We buy our chemicals by the truck load, tanker load and sometimes by a million gallons at a time. We control our costs in this way which keeps us cost competitive and we also do not experience shortages which would stop production in the critical winter months. Our chemist in our own lab come up with our formulations and test them for performance and quality. We mix our own chemicals at our tank farm and then send them to our warehouse for bottling, box the product and store it for shipping. Most of our competitors use what we call "cold blenders". That is they come up with a formulation and then send it off to a blending facility who purchase the chemicals and mix them to the required specifications, bottle and box and label the product and then ship it back to the owner who warehouse it until it is sold. This causes their prices to be usually higher than ours. Often since they have higher costs due to the cold blend process they put out an inferior product and say it is equal to or better than ours.


http://www.toyotadiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1067 is the source, purportedly from Power Service. The emphasizing print features (bold, underline, italics) were added by me.

I will never use an emulsifier on a common rail diesel.
 

nj1266

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This is a sales pitch...nothing more. It is not mentioned AT ALL on the website. The solubizer is for Diesel 911, not for Diesel Kleen. There is no mention of whether DK is an emulsifier or demulsifer. the web site only says that DK is "Prevents corrosion of fuel system components." How is that achieved is unknown.

There is no mention of HFRR testing with PS. How much does PS reduce scaring using the HFRR method? Why doesn't PS mention this on their website?
 
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MacBuckeye

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nj1266-

Based on the results in my car and 32K miles later, the inspection of my fuel filters and fuel canister show very promising wear and results. No signs of rust, no strange particles floating around. Components look new. I've puchased fuel 57 times since I bought the car, mostly from Shell, and a few from Murphy's (wallyworld), Hess, Sheetz, Exxon and Sunoco. 29 fillups using PS, 14 with Stanadyne, 14 tanks with nothing at all. I switched to Stanadyne recently, with intermittent use of PS. I'm going to use up the Stanadyne and then stick with PS.

Conclusion:
1) My car is blessed with a good HPFP and good fuel system components.
2) I've purchased nothing but the best quality fuel (that's quesionable)
3) Using PowerService kept my fuel system from rusting & crapping out
4) Wasting money on additives that aren't doing anything
5) None of the above or All of the above

I can only base my use of additives on what has worked for me. That's all any of us can really do. Now if "Joe Blow" 2009 owner with the EXACT same car as mine doesn't use additives and has a clean bill of health for this HPFP and fuel system, then I'm wasting my money on additives. Now if Joe's 2009 craps out, was it just bad luck or was it due to him not using additives? You guess is as good as mine. I think I'll stick with an additive- that being PowerService for now.
 

GTIDan

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jbright said:
This is how every diesel fuel company should do it:

http://www.countrymark.com/pdr.cfm

I contacted by phone representative's for ARCO (BP), Chevron and Conoco/Phillips and all said they keep the index well under 500 and usually closer to 400/460. Cetane ranged from 48 to 52 between the three brands.

With a useful life of around 750 thousand miles for the Bosch HPFP who cares if it's going to be a little less using US diesel. You still should get close to 500 thousand miles out of the unit.

Drive more/worry less... :)
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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nj1266 said:
This is a sales pitch...nothing more. It is not mentioned AT ALL on the website. The solubizer is for Diesel 911, not for Diesel Kleen. There is no mention of whether DK is an emulsifier or demulsifer. the web site only says that DK is "Prevents corrosion of fuel system components." How is that achieved is unknown.

There is no mention of HFRR testing with PS. How much does PS reduce scaring using the HFRR method? Why doesn't PS mention this on their website?
To me the points of the PS quote are twofold: 1) if one has a water problem, the products that have emusifiers and demulsifiers as part of their additive package probably don't have enough water dispersants to disperse all the water and 2) neither emulsifiers nor demulsifiers effectively handle water in that tiny droplets of suspended water or water dropped out of the fuel left in the fuel filter canister/tank can still cause rust and lubricity issues.

I use DK for cetane boost and cleaning and B2 for lubricity. I do check my FF canister for water peridically. In nearly 35 years of driving diesels, I can recall one time finding maybe a teaspoon of water in the FF canister. If I found water in my 2009 TDI, I'd remove it and use 911 in a couple tanks of fuel and then recheck for water.

IMHO, the bottom line is that if you buy a tank of fuel contaminated with water, there will be insufficient dispersant in the additives that most are using for lubricity to "save" the fuel system from possible damage.

I agree with Dan, I'd never use an emulsifier on a common rail. I also don't see a need to use an additive with a demulsifier since I check the FF canister for water regularly.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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GTIDan said:
I contacted by phone representative's for ARCO (BP), Chevron and Conoco/Phillips and all said they keep the index well under 500 and usually closer to 400/460. Cetane ranged from 48 to 52 between the three brands.

With a useful life of around 750 thousand miles for the Bosch HPFP who cares if it's going to be a little less using US diesel. You still should get close to 500 thousand miles out of the unit.

Drive more/worry less... :)
I'm not aware of any evidence that one will get 500k miles using 520 micron wear scar fuel (maybe 460 but we really don't know). Drivbiwire says the design like is 750k miles on 400 micron fuel.

Also, could you please ask the reps for hard copy of the retail specs for their fuel around the country and what safeguards are in place to ensure their fuel meets their specs. Saying it on the phone is one thing but putting it in writing is another.;)

 

nj1266

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Plus 3 Golfer said:
I agree with Dan, I'd never use an emulsifier on a common rail. I also don't see a need to use an additive with a demulsifier since I check the FF canister for water regularly.
The large explanation that was posted talks about water freezing in the diesel if you are using an emulsifier in cold temps. I do not have that problem in SoCal. Besides freezing water in diesel, is there another reason not to use an emulsifier?
 

DanG144

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nj1266 said:
The large explanation that was posted talks about water freezing in the diesel if you are using an emulsifier in cold temps. I do not have that problem in SoCal. Besides freezing water in diesel, is there another reason not to use an emulsifier?
from the above referenced document:
"Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy."

Lack of lubrication, and steam erosion are two reasons to avoid water droplets in common rail engines.
 

Mike_M

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Drivbiwire said:
Schaeffer has an Emulsifier, good stuff also. The rest, no idea.
Now I feel loads better about going halfsies with a '09 Jetta-owning friend on some SoyShield. If it's blessed by DBW, it must be good. :D:D:D
 

Mike_M

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tdisky said:
Dangerously? How do you figure? I've run B20 for the past 10k+, with three UOA's, all showing normal viscosities and fuel percentage. My problem is the trace of antifreeze in the oil. And I know someone here is going to say "I knew it! It's the biodiesel!". The coolant level has dropped maybe 1/8" in the past four months, so I'm not really worried about it. Instead, I'm enjoying my terrific, smooth, quiet CBEA!
Did you bother reading the thread? Several pages of good info, including UOAs. Also, you're running B20 and I was mostly speaking about B100.

And I have to point out that I did warn you it was the short version. Go read the thread.
 

nj1266

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DanG144 said:
from the above referenced document:
"Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy."

Lack of lubrication, and steam erosion are two reasons to avoid water droplets in common rail engines.
This is from a link with NO supporting evidence from a self-interested party (Power Service). Where is the link that specifically states that Ford and GM issued a TSB warning against the use of of emulsifiers.

The source of this information is Power Source and they have every reason to distort and misinform to make their product look good. On their website they do not even tell us if Diesel Kleen is an emulsifier or demulsifier and they do not even give out HFRR data. Yet we are supposed to believe this information taken from a forum.
 

GTIDan

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Plus 3 Golfer said:
I'm not aware of any evidence that one will get 500k miles using 520 micron wear scar fuel (maybe 460 but we really don't know). Drivbiwire says the design like is 750k miles on 400 micron fuel.

Also, could you please ask the reps for hard copy of the retail specs for their fuel around the country and what safeguards are in place to ensure their fuel meets their specs. Saying it on the phone is one thing but putting it in writing is another.;)
This whole thing is not a big issue for me.............If my HPFP makes it to 150 thousand I'll be happy......

I think that's pretty much what I say isn't it (Drivebywire's comment) So 500 thousand sounds within range.

Hard copy? If you don't believe the techs I spoke with than a hard copy isn't going to help you. You either believe or you don't!!
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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GTIDan said:
This whole thing is not a big issue for me.............If my HPFP makes it to 150 thousand I'll be happy......

I think that's pretty much what I say isn't it (Drivebywire's comment) So 500 thousand sounds within range.

Hard copy? If you don't believe the techs I spoke with than a hard copy isn't going to help you. You either believe or you don't!!
Then have them send you an e-mail stating such.
 

40X40

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nj1266 said:
This is from a link with NO supporting evidence from a self-interested party (Power Service). Where is the link that specifically states that Ford and GM issued a TSB warning against the use of of emulsifiers.

The source of this information is Power Source and they have every reason to distort and misinform to make their product look good. On their website they do not even tell us if Diesel Kleen is an emulsifier or demulsifier and they do not even give out HFRR data. Yet we are supposed to believe this information taken from a forum.


Call them and ask any question you like. You will find them very friendly and knowlegable. They have been the industry leader for many decades, likley even longer than you have lived!!!! :eek:

Since they sell additives, the final HFRR rating depends on the properties of the fuel their product is treating.......:eek:

Heathy skepicism is a wonderful thing, but lets at least do our homework before jumping to a conclusion.:rolleyes:

http://www.powerservice.com/faq/

Bill
 
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nj1266

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40X40 said:
Call them and ask any question you like. You will find them very friendly and knowlegable. They have been the industry leader for many decades, likley even longer than you have lived!!!! :eek:

Since they sell additives, the final HFRR rating depends on the properties of the fuel their product is treating.......:eek:

Heathy skepicism is a wonderful thing, but lets at least do our homework before jumping to a conclusion.:rolleyes:

http://www.powerservice.com/faq/

Bill
Oh...So because they have been doing it that long, then that gives them street cred :rolleyes: Schaeffer has been in business since 1844, does that also give them street cred :rolleyes:

Why is it that Schaeffer publishes HFRR data for their DT2000 and PS does not. Even in the FAQ all they say is this:

"Slickdiesel meets the new ASTM HFRR 520 Lubricity Specifications for the United States and the more stringent European Specification of 460 in most fuels."

That does not tell me much. And saying that HFRR data is different when you add the PS to different D2 diesels is a cop-out. They can easily specify what brand diesel they were using when their additive was tested. A simple astericks informing the customer would do. This is the same cop-out they came out with when their product performed poorly in the spicer study.

Either they publish their numbers or they do not. I should not have to call them to get data from them. Put the data on the website so all of us can see it and judge for ourselves.
 
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40X40

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nj1266 said:
Oh...So because they have been doing it that long, then that gives them street cred :rolleyes: Schaeffer has been in business since 1844, does that also give them street cred :rolleyes:

Why is it that Schaeffer publishes HFRR data for their DT2000 and PS does not. Even in the FAQ all they say is this:

"Slickdiesel meets the new ASTM HFRR 520 Lubricity Specifications for the United States and the more stringent European Specification of 460 in most fuels."

That does not tell me much. And saying that HFRR data is different when you add the PS to different D2 diesels is a cop-out. They can easily specify what brand diesel they were using when their additive was tested. A simple astericks informing the customer would do. This is the same cop-out they came out with when their product performed poorly in the spicer study.

Either they publish their numbers or they do not. I should not have to call them to get data from them. Put the data on the website so all of us can see it and judge for ourselves.

You do understand that any 'numbers' they might publish would be worthless, right? They cannot tell what the properties a fuel might possess when the fuel has not yet been manufactured, transported and offered for sale.

This conversation is done. If you were serious you would not complain about calling the company to assuage your doubts, therefor you are just trolling and I only feed the trolls when it amuses me.

Bill
 

nj1266

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40X40 said:
You do understand that any 'numbers' they might publish would be worthless, right? They cannot tell what the properties a fuel might possess when the fuel has not yet been manufactured, transported and offered for sale.

This conversation is done. If you were serious you would not complain about calling the company to assuage your doubts, therefor you are just trolling and I only feed the trolls when it amuses me.

Bill
Some on this forum are so full of themselves...You hppen to be one of them. No, I am not trolling. Why do other companies publish data and PS does not? Why did PS do so poorly compared to others in the Spicer study. Something is off, but you are a believer, so keep on believing.
 
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