2009 2010 CR HPFP Adversely Affected by Lubricity > 460?

[Plus 3 Golfer]

If appears that's the consensus of Bosch, Dephi, Continental, Stanadyne and Denso.

I know there's a lot of threads on using fuel additives including biodiesel in the common rail CBEA engines to increase lubricity but I don't recall seeing this Sept. 2009 position paper referenced anywhere. http://www.bosch-kraftfahrzeugtechnik.de/media/pdf/themenimfokus_1/FIEM_Common_Position_Statement_2009.pdf

The salient parapgraph is:

Lubricity:

It is essential that the lubricity of the fuel as measured by the HFRR test specified in ISO
12156-1 meets the requirement of a wear scar diameter not greater than 460 microns. In addition, it is
recommended by the Diesel FIE manufacturers, that “first fill” of the fuel tank should be with fuel with
good lubricity characteristics (HFRR < 400 μm) in order to guarantee good “run-in” of the injection system
components. The US diesel specification (ASTM D 975-09) includes a lubricity value of 520 μm maximum
(according to ASTM D 6079). It is expected that the useful operating lifetime of any mechanical
component will be adversely affected by fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 microns.

The last sentence is a very strong statement: "It is expected that the useful operating lifetime of any mechanical component will be adversely affected by fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 microns." Also, notice the advice that the first fill of fuel should have a lubricity of less than 400 microns. I'll bet these companies have studies supporting this consensus statement. I would love to hear VW's response to this. I don't know the authors' intent of this sentence but to me it's clearly an indication that we should expect earlier failures of the HPFP if we use ULSD only, the ASTM specs should be changed, and lubricity additives should be used. Also, I seem to recall that Bosch supported the ASTM standards and even participated in the development (briefly searched but can't verify). Could this be a reversal?

IMHO, this is the strongest statement yet that one should be using additives in the 2009 and 2010 TDIs to increase the lubricity of the ULSD currently being sold in the US.

 

[dweisel]

So,if our engines are not compatible with some of the fuel we use or in some areas,all the fuel. What do you do? Dump in an additive and hope for the best.

I have tried to get lubricity specs on fuel in my area from fuel suppliers, but never receved returned calls.

Second question: Does VW first fill with the proper fuel?

Third question: Shouldn't VW have some warning about using fuel that meets a certain lubricity spec. especially in the break in period.

Dweisel

 

[Plus 3 Golfer]

Since we have no idea of the actual fuel lubricity of ULSD other than it must meet the ASTM spec of 520, I don't see how you can go wrong with adding one quart of B100 per fillup to increase the longevity of the HPFP. From Chevron:

​

There is no doubt that lubricity is an important property of diesel fuel performance.
A single tankful of fuel with extremely low lubricity can cause fuel injection system
components, such as a fuel pump, to catastrophically fail. Setting a lubricity requirement
to prevent catastrophic failure is relatively easy; setting a requirement to avoid long-term
fuel system wear is much harder.

​

​

​

​

Your second question is a good one. VW puts speacial break-in oil for the engine but do the dealers put B2 - B5 or other additives in the first fill-up for lubricity to break-in the HPFP? I doubt it. Maybe VW runs these pumps prior to installation for break-in. Again I doubt it.

I doubt VW will say anything about lubricity unless it becomes an issue down the road. What we don't know is if 520 microns is too close to the edge of "catastrophic failure" and that's why the EU went with 460 microns.
​

 

[securityguy]

As Plus3 stated...

IMHO, this is the strongest statement yet that one should be using additives in the 2009 and 2010 TDIs to increase the lubricity of the ULSD currently being sold in the US.

I know that some on this forum have jumped on me for bringing up the Opti-Lube XPD and as one member stated who i'll keep nameless it was "entertaining" to read but the reason many of us have selected it was due to the independent testing and how highly rated it was right up there next to BioD. You can argue all you want that the batch of OL tested was "pre-production" and may have changed after the testing was performed; however, there are times you have to put your trust in man-kind and believe that what was tested is what's being sold. I can assure you that as this member also stated, there is NO "placebo effect" here. Our cars have run smoother, quieter and with less smoke than it did prior to it's use. I, personally feel the difference between using the PS and now OL. I am not an OL salesman and have no stake in the product but it's becoming clear to this member that we all need something to increase the lubricity of our fuel as we cannot assume and rely on the distributor to put the necessary additives into their fuel prior to delivery to get it to the minimum requirements that it needs to be for the 2009-2010 engines which is clearly less wear scar than the current requirements.

I am a very well educated individual as are many that participate on this forum and maybe it is time for everyone to listen and understand the need to do something..whether it's OL, PS, Stanadyne or the beverage of your choice. I have used an additive since my first tank of fuel and am confident that I am doing what is right and best for my cars longevity

 

[tditom]

good info. thanks for sharing. here is a thread i started awhile back on lubricity. some people seem to want to keep their head in the sand on the whole issue.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=196059

 

[Plus 3 Golfer]

good info. thanks for sharing. here is a thread i started awhile back on lubricity. some people seem to want to keep their head in the sand on the whole issue.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=196059

WOW - I suggest everyone with a 2009+ TDI read the Bosch Presentation since dealers and VW have indicated to some that additives should not be used in the 2009+ TDIs. Actually, this should be MANDATORY reading. One should also read the Spicer Report.

I don't know how anyone could conclude that lubricity with a HFRR 520 micron rating is acceptable based on the Bosch data. I began using Power Service in my second tank and for about the last 6 tanks have used PS + one quart of B100 per fillup (essentially B2). Had I read this presentation 14 months ago, I'd have been on B2 since then.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I was first inclined not to read this presentation because of the 2003 date. But there is common rail data in there that's pretty compelling.

When people ask me about using lubricity additives I tell them that they help a lot in TDIs, including rotary pump cars. However, I also tell them not to expect any significant differences in performance or economy, that the benefit will show 100K down the road when their pump is still OK.

I've used lubricity additives faithfully and have never had a rotary pump-related issue in any of the six TDIs I own. The original IP in my '02 came up at 170K when I upgraded it and it still worked beautifully. Same with my son's A3 with 190K on the original pump.

I went to a talk given by a Stanadyne rep some time ago and he said that the lubricity additives in ULSD are added at the depot, often when trucks are loaded. He warned that this method is crude and inconsistent. I know he has an agenda but the info made sense to me.

 

[Plus 3 Golfer]

I was first inclined not to read this presentation because of the 2003 date. But there is common rail data in there that's pretty compelling.
...
I went to a talk given by a Stanadyne rep some time ago and he said that the lubricity additives in ULSD are added at the depot, often when trucks are loaded. He warned that this method is crude and inconsistent. I know he has an agenda but the info made sense to me.

The internal pics of the common rail pump are worth 1000 words.

According to Chevron, "Because of pipeline regulations in the U.S., lubricity additives are added at the terminals." I'll bet there's been more than one truck that left the terminal with no lubricity additive. Again, just look at the pics of the common rail pump using fuel with a 650 micron rating (which is fairly typical of untreated ULSD according to the Spicer Report). According to the Bosch Report, fuel with a 650 rating can cause immeditate failure of pumps.

 

[ChippedNotBroken]

OUCH!!!!!

I've been thinking about picking up some B100 and using that as an additive based on one of the PDF's I read recently.

Any useful info on that?

 

[Rockwater]

Adding lubricants may help but how much is enough to get below the recommended spec? Unless the lubricity of the additives are known and the final lubricity of the fuel can be calculated or measured, it's all a guess. Is B2 good enough? B3, B4, B5? Lubricity data on this anyone? Thanks!

 

[Plus 3 Golfer]

Adding lubricants may help but how much is enough to get below the recommended spec? Unless the lubricity of the additives are known and the final lubricity of the fuel can be calculated or measured, it's all a guess. Is B2 good enough? B3, B4, B5? Lubricity data on this anyone? Thanks!

It's in the Spicer Report referenced in post #5. It shows the reduction in HFRR for a number of additives to untreated ULSD. But it would be nice to see a study of the cumulative effect of additives using treated diesel as the basis for measuring reduction. I doubt one can simply take the Spicer reduction numbers based on untreated ULDS and apply those reductions to treated ULSD.

B2 shows a 415 micron reduction from untreated ULSD. That is more than adequate based on the Bosch Presentation. But it would be nice to know what improvement one gets with both B2 and B4 on untreated and treated ULSD. Obviously, you can't just double the 415 micron reduction of B2 to get the HFRR for B4.

 

[tditom]

Adding lubricants may help but how much is enough to get below the recommended spec? Unless the lubricity of the additives are known and the final lubricity of the fuel can be calculated or measured, it's all a guess. Is B2 good enough? B3, B4, B5? Lubricity data on this anyone? Thanks!

here is a link to a paper on that subject from biodiesel.org.
http://biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF

 

[Turbine Suburban]

Well, that's swell.
Here we have great cars, and no fuel for them. Then fuel with what you can get, lunch a pump, and VW can claim contamination.

Handy.

 

[ChippedNotBroken]

Okay, I just made a list of Bio dealers within 100 miles and will find a way in the next two weeks to pick up a 5 Gallon pail of Bio as a supplement to my regular fuel. Based on what I read a quart per tank ought to be enough and will last for 20 tanks or 14000 miles about what I drive in a year. I am guessing it will cost me around $25 for a 5 gallon pail, not bad. but you gotta wonder why none of the majors offers this as a premium product, like premium gas. How hard could it be?

Maybe a few emails are in order to BP (as a shareholder do you think they would listen to me ) Moble, Conoco etc ...

 

[adjat84th]

I wonder how hard it would be to launch a nationwide B2 roll out sort of like they have done with the 10% ethanol in gasoline. One can only hope I guess.

Since I read the spicer report, I have been using Opti-Lube XPD rather than Power Service and the Bosch Presentation makes me feel even better about my decision.

 

[aja8888]

Okay, I just made a list of Bio dealers within 100 miles and will find a way in the next two weeks to pick up a 5 Gallon pail of Bio as a supplement to my regular fuel. Based on what I read a quart per tank ought to be enough and will last for 20 tanks or 14000 miles about what I drive in a year. I am guessing it will cost me around $25 for a 5 gallon pail, not bad. but you gotta wonder why none of the majors offers this as a premium product, like premium gas. How hard could it be?

Maybe a few emails are in order to BP (as a shareholder do you think they would listen to me ) Moble, Conoco etc ...

Several of us here use 100 % bio (I use soy-based) and add a quart per tankful of D2 to aid in increasing lubricity. Use good biodiesel if you can get it. Here is my supplier:

http://www.houstonbiodiesel.com/

 

[jbright]

If you live in Indiana, parts of Illinois and Ohio, there's a small company selling a good product.

http://www.countrymark.com/biodiesel.cfm

 

[aja8888]

If you live in Indiana, parts of Illinois and Ohio, there's a small company selling a good product.

http://www.countrymark.com/biodiesel.cfm

I have done oil & gas projects for Countrymark. They are a co-op and a very good company.

 

[jbright]

That's good to know. I'm going to start driving a few more miles to fill up at their closest station.

 

[JSWTDI09]

That's good to know. I'm going to start driving a few more miles to fill up at their closest station.

You don't want to fill up your 2009 with pure BIO (older TDIs are OK). No more that B5 is allowed in 2009+ TDIs. That means about a quart of B100 per tank is about all you want.

 

[ChippedNotBroken]

I'd be happy if I could get B10, but in NE PA not much chance of that happening any time soon. It just isn't worth driving an extra 150 miles (RT) to pay an extra $1 or two a gallon. For now I will just be content to add it to my tank and write a letter or two to BP and see what happens.

 

[tditom]

I'd be happy if I could get B10, but in NE PA not much chance of that happening any time soon. It just isn't worth driving an extra 150 miles (RT) to pay an extra $1 or two a gallon. For now I will just be content to add it to my tank and write a letter or two to BP and see what happens.

if you can find a station selling BP Diesel Supreme you should be fine:
http://www.bp.com/heliospower/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9028299&contentId=7051508

 

[jbright]

CountryMark's bio is only B-2, which should be perfect. I have been using BP with great results, mileage wise, but I think it's just their regular diesel. There aren't any BP/Amaco stations around here anymore, so finding the diesel supreme is difficult. I'm not sure anyone sells it. I would like to know how it compares to B-2 in terms of lubricity. The fuel thing with diesels is a pain in the a**, isn't it?

 

[OilBurner17]

I had a random thought/hypothesis regarding why VW might make no comment on additives in '09-'10 TDi's. The '09-'10 cars are 50 state legal, which I am sure cost VW a pretty penny and resulted in some sleepless nights during development, testing of the engines. One would imagine the engines would have to be tested by the Feds and CA for emission compliance with manufacturer recommended/required fuel, etc., so perhaps VW says nothing about additives, b/c if they recommend one/some they would have to test for emissions certification with the recommended additives...which would lead to opening a whole new can of worms (testing, expense, etc.) So VW says the engine can "reliabily" and "consistently" run on ULSD with no additive knowing that the HPFP life is 80K or 100K given the lower lubricity of ULSD. VW doesn't care about the replacement cost (the owner is paying it long after the warranty expires) and VW doesn't want the hassle from the EPA or CARB about testing the engine for 50 state approval with a myriad of recommended additives. Hmmmm...???

 

[securityguy]

oil - you may have just hit the nail on the head

 

[Rockwater]

I had a random thought/hypothesis regarding why VW might make no comment on additives in '09-'10 TDi's. The '09-'10 cars are 50 state legal, which I am sure cost VW a pretty penny and resulted in some sleepless nights during development, testing of the engines. One would imagine the engines would have to be tested by the Feds and CA for emission compliance with manufacturer recommended/required fuel, etc., so perhaps VW says nothing about additives, b/c if they recommend one/some they would have to test for emissions certification with the recommended additives...which would lead to opening a whole new can of worms (testing, expense, etc.) So VW says the engine can "reliabily" and "consistently" run on ULSD with no additive knowing that the HPFP life is 80K or 100K given the lower lubricity of ULSD. VW doesn't care about the replacement cost (the owner is paying it long after the warranty expires) and VW doesn't want the hassle from the EPA or CARB about testing the engine for 50 state approval with a myriad of recommended additives. Hmmmm...???

Up to B5 is okay so I don't see the problem.

 

[recklessdriver]

Thanks for posting links to these eye-opening documents. As an engineer, standardized tests, studies, and signatures of approval from people with technical backgrounds make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

VW had to be aware of US diesel fuel quality standards when deciding to send these engines to the US market. Yet they decided to sell them anyways understanding the potential for premature failures. They probably just didn't realize they would fail so quickly.

So the question becomes, do I bail out VW (and myself by not having to fight with them over warranty repairs) by using additives to improve lubricity and extend the life of my pump? Or do I just pump diesel at the nearest station, drive, and become another statistic so that VW can realize, "Oh my, this is an expensive mistake, let's not sell something that will be a liability?"

 

[securityguy]

Reckless - from one engineer to another, you and I both know the answer to your question. Now will that be BioD or Opti-Lube

 

[jbright]

I have made up my mind to use B-2 whenever possible from now on. I just drove 20 miles and filled up at CountryMark. They only sell the Premium B-2 product now for highway use, and it has a 50 cetane rating as well. It's also more expensive. From what I know about multi-national corporations in today's economy, I think Oilburner's speculation is probably close to the truth. However, if the "grenading" fuel pump becomes more common, I think Volkswagen will be forced to deal with the issue in a more forthright manner (the internet changes the game). Hope so at least.

 

[Rod Bearing]

I own 2 of the CBEA powered Jettas and neither have had a single tank of untreated fuel in them, ever. I dose them at every fill.

I now plan to change fuel filters every 10,000 miles.

I may have had the boys snipped off a long time ago, but it still hurts to get slapped there. I ain't giving VW no chance at slapping the boys.