2007 IS the year of the DIESEL

[Gettin50MPGs]

...We still can resell our Tdi's well maintained with 100,000 miles for sometimes half what we had paid new. Equate that into real world. I was offered last week $9,500 for my Golf 2002 GLS manual transmission with 187,000. I bought that new for $16,780. Lovely, just lovely...

Early last year I was offered selling price for my wifes Passat TDI....very nice!

 

[bigEZ]

I’m curious how you decided that a diesel will recoup its premium faster and cost less to maintain than a hybrid. That hasn’t been my experience.

Let’s look at base purchase prices:

2006 Civic Hybrid: $22,600
2006 Jetta TDI: $22,235
2006 Prius: $22,175

Notice that they are within $425. No TDI savings here.

you don't have the right comparison here. what you need to be looking at is the price premium for the diesel and hybrid vehicles vs. their standard counterparts. typically, the diesel is around $1000 more than the base engine model, while hybrids are much more than that -- $3000, $4000, $5000 or more than their base counterparts (yes, i know there is no non-hybrid prius, but it's comparable to a corolla).

so, as far as recouping cost, you're looking at the fuel savings you get vs. the extra cost plus an average fuel price to figure out how long it takes to recoup the cost. in most calculations, the diesel will pay for itself in 15k-20k miles, while the hybrid will take much longer to pay for itself (of course, tax breaks now avail for hybrid purchase do level the playing field a bit more).

 

[jhintontdi]

That's not a bad summary, it hasn't paid lately for the TDI: rising diesel fuel price, falling mpg's and increasing vehicle price; and the opposite for hybrids: falling gas prices and falling vehicle prices. I don't think I'd jump at the opportunity to buy now (not that I could).

But what was the price on your '03? In 03 and 04, IIRC the price split between Jetta and Prius was a few grand, not as even as it is now. And fuel prices were relatively even.

But how do you get 6 cents per mile? I get 20-21 cents/mile in mine. I figure, I'll drive it to about 250kmiles, so about 10cents/mile depreciation, 5 for maintance, and 5-6 (current prices) for fuel. I don't include tax and registration, I'd pay that on any vehicle.

My Jetta Wagon TDI was $22,500 in September of 2002. I don't know what a Prius was because at the time I believed all the crap about low real world mileage and battery failures.

It is $0.06 / mile running expenses. (Fuel, maintanence, insurance, etc) basically everything except purchase price and sales tax. Total cost is $.021 / mile. I used running expenses because it doesn't rely on how many miles you have on the vehicle.

 

[jhintontdi]

Resale. Try selling a car that has a $4,000 to $7,000 battery replacement if in fact the batteries start to faulter and you're unloading it with ...100,000 miles.

Logic?

We still can resell our Tdi's well maintained with 100,000 miles for sometimes half what we had paid new. Equate that into real world. I was offered last week $9,500 for my Golf 2002 GLS manual transmission with 187,000. I bought that new for $16,780. Lovely, just lovely.

Run FOREST, run! That Highbirdie runs on expensive batteries!

Look on Ebay, 2000 Honda Insights with 150,000 to 200,000 still sell for $10,000. That is 1/2 of retail even after the battery warranty has expired.

Thanks for the tip on intake cleaning. I'll have to look into it this spring when I can start riding my motorcycle again.

 

[jhintontdi]

Why dont they warranty the better for the life of the car?

A companies "claims" mean nothing these days without some back up otherwise it's prudent to through a grain of salt in there for good measure.

Why doesn't VW warranty the engine in our TDI's for the life of the vehicle? Warranties are only a marketing ploy to give people peace of mind. If you look at companies with perceived quality the warranties are short, but companies with percieved quality problems the warranty is long. The warranty is used to buy back trust. Hyundai is an excellent example.

I looked on the owner's forums such as PriusChat and looked for people that had battery problems. I didn't find any.

 

[mlconnell]

Diesels

I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth ! so here goes:

This is my first Diesel and I love it. I love the torque, I love the smell of the diesel and I love the clattering of the engine. At $2.39 a gallon that I'm paying here in El Paso I am still getting better gas mileage than most cars that use the cheap unleaded GASOLINE. Aside from being a VW which I love, this car really has some power and zip and it is totally stock. I'm not into racing but having power to get in and out of traffic is a sense of security that I like having. Not to mention how sleek and awesome the body on the A4 golf looks. I can just stand and stare at my car and am in awe of it's awesome sporty, sleek look. When I had my jetta I always said my next car was going to be a GOLF.

 

[jhintontdi]

you don't have the right comparison here. what you need to be looking at is the price premium for the diesel and hybrid vehicles vs. their standard counterparts. typically, the diesel is around $1000 more than the base engine model, while hybrids are much more than that -- $3000, $4000, $5000 or more than their base counterparts (yes, i know there is no non-hybrid prius, but it's comparable to a corolla).

Sorry, I'm not falling for that old trick. For a fair comparison you can't compare a stripped bare-bones standard car to the hybrid. All the hybrid manufacturers all are loading up the hybrids. For example the Honda Civic only comes with one option, with or without navigation. The rest is little stuff like floor mats, mud flaps, spoilers and such. If you compare the same trim levels the difference is much smaller. For example the Honda Civic hybrid is $22,600. The same trim gas-only civic is an EX Automatic that is $20,202. That is only a difference of $2,398

 

[jhintontdi]

you don't have the right comparison here. what you need to be looking at is the price premium for the diesel and hybrid vehicles vs. their standard counterparts. ............(yes, i know there is no non-hybrid prius, but it's comparable to a corolla).

A Prius is comparable to a Camry not a Corolla. The Prius and Camry are classified as mid-size cars. The Corolla and Jetta are classified as compact cars. Look at www.fueleconomy.com, search by EPA Class or Market Class.

 

[supton]

It is $0.06 / mile running expenses. (Fuel, maintanence, insurance, etc) basically everything except purchase price and sales tax. Total cost is $.021 / mile. I used running expenses because it doesn't rely on how many miles you have on the vehicle.

I think you meant 21cents/mile, which then puts it about even. Good to hear that there wasn't that much a difference; I had thought about going hybrid, but the biodiesel and towing capability tilted it for me. Sounds like your hybrid works well for you.

 

[ptempel]

Another thing we have now. INTERNET. How many of us would have a TDI if we waited for the television to tell us we wanted one? Has VW even spent the FIRST dollar advertising them? News articles, blogs, and chatrooms have sold most of the current diesels. The only diesel ad I have ever seen is Dr Dieter selling Jeep diesels (that don't actually exist yet).

This site and some others convinced me to jump into the Passat TDI wagon. Thanks go to Fred for providing a nice site and to you guys for all the great contribtuions to it. Forget about TV. Have some great forums like this and the TDI will get some "advertisement."

Now that I have one, I would prefer it over a gasser at equal cost per mile. Learn to drive the torque and you will never miss a car with a rev limiter.

Hear, hear. I just wish we had more options than what's currently here. If the market proves to get bigger in 2008, then we could see some of those nice V6 TDI comon rail engines here. Would love one in the Phaeton. Actually, if I'm going super luxury might as well go for the V10 or V12 TDI. Yeeeeaaaaahhhh. All you need is TORQUE, grasshopper.

 

[jhintontdi]

I think you meant 21cents/mile, which then puts it about even. Good to hear that there wasn't that much a difference; I had thought about going hybrid, but the biodiesel and towing capability tilted it for me. Sounds like your hybrid works well for you.

I did mean $0.21 / mile. I don't tow and I don't have access to biodiesel or even ULSD yet. I like the idea of biodiesel but I can't really see me cooking it up in my basement. I can fit more in my Jetta Wagon than my uncle can fit in his Envoy XL though. I've also not been able to find a hitch I like for my Jetta Wagon. Do you have any recommendations?

I'm not against diesels, I have one and like it. I just don't like people repeating things about hybrids that I know not to be true. The lack of "Real World Mileage" is one of those myths. I do the same thing on the PriusChat forum when they're bashing on diesels. I'm a man between two worlds I guess.

 

[supton]

Yeah, I hear you. We live in a world of disinformation it seems sometimes.

On the hitch, I have a Hidden Hitch model something-or-another. I got it from etrailers.com. Works ok, not the prettiest thing but gets the job done. Took a couple of hours to install, not that hard. Worst part was that the lid for the spare wheel well did not sit flush anymore--maybe they fixed that now--but I wound up clearancing around the added bolt to get it really close. Works well otherwise. I also used a convertor for the lights. There's a thread over in the Upgrades section, sometime in the past.

Just don't do what I did: I bought some cheapie trailer hitch lock thing from Walmart, so I could leave the ball in place (instead of pulling the pin to pull it out). Left it on for a month, now it's rusted in place. So much for the hidden part...

 

[jhintontdi]

Thanks for the info. I see that Hidden Hitch now shows a hitch bent out of round tubing. I've seen the square ones before but didn't like how low they mount. Is this the hitch that you have?

http://www.hiddenhitch.com/prodphoto/gif/6xxxxRT.gif

 

[wxman]

I don't tow and I don't have access to biodiesel or even ULSD yet.

jhinton - you're from Knoxville per your profile. Are you aware that there are several biodiesel pumps in East Tennessee, including Knoxville? See http://eerc.ra.utk.edu/etcfc/ET-biodiesel.html .

I use B20 exclusively in our Jetta TDI (runs MUCH better on B20), and about every 2-3 tanks for our Dodge/Cummins Ram.

 

[supton]

Almost looks like that, but it's not. Hidden Hitch *is* showing that, but mine did not look like it.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=114654&highlight=hidden+hitch


This looks like mine:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/21665hidd_hitch_inst-med.jpg
but I can't recall at the moment what the p/n of mine was. I *think* it was 60984, so maybe Hidden Hitch is just using a "stock" photo for all hitches. [FYI: Torque bolts to: 53 foot/lbs for 7/16 and 72 for 1/2.]

I think there's a better thread on the hitch install, or at least one that I used to install mine, but it's been too long.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

jhintontdi, I think your comparison is pretty valid. Retail prices vary depending on the market: Right now you can get either car at a discount. And I read an article recently that said hybrid batteries are proving to last at least 150K, what's considered the service life of the car. So if you buy one with 100K on it you're not necessarily facing immediate battery replacement.

If you're looking for a car as appliance, the Prius is a great choice, IMO. So is the Camry, hybrid or not, or the Corolla, or Civic. But where the TDI trumps these is in its ability to be tuned by an enthusiast. My '02 wagon will run rings around any Prius but still will get 50+ MPG if only I could drive it gently. And I can continue to evolve the car as I choose (and available cash permit). That's worth a lot to me.

 

[jhintontdi]

jhinton - you're from Knoxville per your profile. Are you aware that there are several biodiesel pumps in East Tennessee, including Knoxville? See http://eerc.ra.utk.edu/etcfc/ET-biodiesel.html .

I use B20 exclusively in our Jetta TDI (runs MUCH better on B20), and about every 2-3 tanks for our Dodge/Cummins Ram.

Thanks for the link. I live in a small town about 50 miles east of Knoxville. I was aware that biodiesel was availabe on the west side of Knoxville but that is about 60 miles away. I did notice there is a new B20 station off I-40 that I pass about once a month.

 

[VW JUNKY]

Can a Prius pull a 1700lb camper to the mountains and to the beach?
Jetta TDI is more versitile than a Prius
Heck i get close to 30mpg pulling the camper to the beach and maybe 25 up hill in the mountains but heck it can do it!
Only thing that will replace my TDI jettas will be a Diesel mini van when ever they come around.
later

 

[RED2003CUMMINS]

How to convince people to buy a diesel!

I am itching to buy a Diesel. Drove the ML320CDI this weekend to see what I might be able to expect when my Jeep dealer finally gets the Grand Cherokee CRD in. Shouldn't have spoiled myself by test driving the Mercedes, but its a great engine. What a car! Anyhow. All you need to do to convince yourself is to do a cost benefit analysis. Take the difference in price of an identical Grand Cherokee with the HEMI and the CRD. Calculate the difference between the average MPG and you get a result, depending on the difference between unleaded and diesel where you typically buy fuel. You get a Return on your investment between 50,000 and 60,000 miles. I didn't do the math with the Mercedes. Depending on the drivetrain you would compare it against I would think the recouping of the cost of the diesel would be even quicker, and instantaneous if you compared it to a V-8 model. Anyhow... if you teach people to do the math they would see the advantage instantly.

 

[supton]

Can a Prius pull a 1700lb camper to the mountains and to the beach?
Jetta TDI is more versitile than a Prius
Heck i get close to 30mpg pulling the camper to the beach and maybe 25 up hill in the mountains but heck it can do it!
Only thing that will replace my TDI jettas will be a Diesel mini van when ever they come around.
later

Might not, but can a TDI get upwards of 50-60 in the city? [I know it could, if it wasn't saddled in such a heavy car. But with off the shelf A3/A4/A5?] Can you get one in CA?

No vehicle can do it all. It's all about realizing what you need, what you want, and shopping for the best fit.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Tell us how we can get away from OPEC. Where are we going to get the oil?

Lets see how we could solve several problems with one solution.

Most of our oil comes from Canada, Mexico, and South America. So just take over Mexico and which ever SA country has oil. Stop/solve the immigration problems, bring Mexico and SA out of thrid world status. Build up a solid Americas... Let the middle east and Europe fend for themselves.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Can a Prius pull a 1700lb camper to the mountains and to the beach?
Jetta TDI is more versitile than a Prius
r

Can a Jetta TDI pull a 5000lbs camper to the mountains and to the beach. The Hummer H2 is more versitile than a Jetta TDI.

 

[03_01_TDI]

I am itching to buy a Diesel. Drove the ML320CDI this weekend to see what I might be able to expect when my Jeep dealer finally gets the Grand Cherokee CRD in. Shouldn't have spoiled myself by test driving the Mercedes, but its a great engine. What a car! Anyhow. All you need to do to convince yourself is to do a cost benefit analysis. Take the difference in price of an identical Grand Cherokee with the HEMI and the CRD. Calculate the difference between the average MPG and you get a result, depending on the difference between unleaded and diesel where you typically buy fuel. You get a Return on your investment between 50,000 and 60,000 miles. I didn't do the math with the Mercedes. Depending on the drivetrain you would compare it against I would think the recouping of the cost of the diesel would be even quicker, and instantaneous if you compared it to a V-8 model. Anyhow... if you teach people to do the math they would see the advantage instantly.

If people knew math they wouldn't buy a new car and loose 10-20% value within the first mile! Bought the wife a gasser Benz Ml430 with 9,000 miles and a CPO 3 year 100k warrenty for HALF the price and a "new" ML. No math with MPG can offset $20-30,000! But even then she could have gotten a nice Subaru Outback for near the same cost and gotten 5-8 more MPG.

Math can be worked in many different ways.

 

[jhintontdi]

jhintontdi, I think your comparison is pretty valid. Retail prices vary depending on the market: Right now you can get either car at a discount. And I read an article recently that said hybrid batteries are proving to last at least 150K, what's considered the service life of the car. So if you buy one with 100K on it you're not necessarily facing immediate battery replacement.

If you're looking for a car as appliance, the Prius is a great choice, IMO. So is the Camry, hybrid or not, or the Corolla, or Civic. But where the TDI trumps these is in its ability to be tuned by an enthusiast. My '02 wagon will run rings around any Prius but still will get 50+ MPG if only I could drive it gently. And I can continue to evolve the car as I choose (and available cash permit). That's worth a lot to me.

I agree that the Prius is not driver’s car, but I don’t put the Civic is the same category. I had a chance to drive a Civic Hybrid from San Francisco to Yosemite National Park and back. I felt that the Civic cornered as well on mountain roads as my 03 Jetta Wagon with Bilstein shocks and a completely rebuild suspension. The acceleration was about the same and I liked that the regenerative brakes help keep a constant speed on downhill sections without overloading the brakes or bouncing off the rev limiter.

Choices are limited for engine modifications but hybrids will respond to chassis modifications like any other car. There are springs, shocks, frame stiffeners, and wheel and tire upgrades available. There are even a few intake kits and cat-back exhaust systems available. The Prius has been out for 10 year in Japan so there a quite a few tuning options available if you look. I plan on upgrading the suspension on the Prius when it needs replacement. I may also get a set of performance wheel and tires and keep the stock rims for winter.

For me it came down to practicality. The Honda Civic has the battery pack located behind the rear seats. This decreases the amount of trunk space and prevents the seat from folding down. The Prius has folding seats and a hatchback so a can carry long items. It also can carry taller things than my Jetta Wagon if the rear seats are down. So the practical Prius won over the sportier Civic. If VW had a TDI wagon or Rabbit available I would have probably got another diesel. Of course it’s just a car to take me from A to B and keep the rain off me. When I’m in the mood for some fun I get out the motorcycle.

 

[jhintontdi]

Can a Prius pull a 1700lb camper to the mountains and to the beach?
Jetta TDI is more versitile than a Prius
Heck i get close to 30mpg pulling the camper to the beach and maybe 25 up hill in the mountains but heck it can do it!
Only thing that will replace my TDI jettas will be a Diesel mini van when ever they come around.
later

I don’t know if a Prius can pull a 1700 lb camper because I don’t own a trailer. I know there are some people on PriusChat that puller trailers.

When I go camping everything that I need fits in a backpack that goes on my back. If you have a bed and a roof it’s not camping.

When I go to the beach all I need is a towel, some sunscreen and a smile.

 

[wxman]

I live in a small town about 50 miles east of Knoxville.

I live in a small town about 50 miles east of Knoxville also. Maybe we're neighbors.

I get my B20 in Newport at the Texaco station there ("Mr. Gas" Texaco). It's located just off I-40 at exit 432a, IIRC.

 

[kcfoxie]

I truely hope that I am wrong. How many people have you personally been able to convert over to diesel???

So far, two: My father and my friend's girlfriend. Soon my boyfriend's mother will make three.

The overt, greedy and sickening rise in diesel fuel is always the first thing that comes out of peoples mouths when it comes to diesel fule.

Then run on B99. You can do it most of the year and only contend with smell during the winter.

regarding the math aspect, I tell people I get between 500 and 600 miles to a tank, and it costs $37 to fill up. They do the math, many of them put $60-$80 into their SUV that gets them perhaps 280 miles. I also mention that my REVO-powered TDI has more Torque than the 3.0L V6 found in the Ford Ranger (that also raises a few eyebrows).

My plan for this summer (H20) will be "Green Power that leaves you in the dust." Showing off what ULSD, LSD (550ppm), B99 and B20 look like in mason jars, the general Biodiesel FAQ, and my Dyno stats before and after the REVO, with my monthly breakdown of vehicle upkeep (oil, filters, fuel) and a Cost-per-mile breakdown. Cut and dried into a few small sheets of paper taped into the front window; certain states will be harder to convince. I have friends in NY who had diesels in the 80s and swear they'll never own another -- i sent video of my car starting with B20 in the tank at 18F and she was shocked that it started up in 5 seconds.

I'm a Mac user, I'm used to this whole minority battle -- you show the facts and don't let their negative comments get to you. It sounds a little posh or possibly elitist, but really thats the only way to take notice. I've put 2400 miles on the car and filled up 4 times -- you do the math. I can also directly equate that out to my 2.0L gas vehicle -- it get a reliable 300 to a tank, at $32/tank. The diesel is $5 more per tank, and yileing double the mileage. I have had more people ask questions about this car over the past weekend than I ever did with the Beetles or Golfs I've had before. People are interested, the price is what really gets people -- $18,000 and it has 24,000 miles? That seems high.... people arne't used to cars that appreciate over time.

 

[BrianCT]

I'm a Mac user, I'm used to this whole minority battle -- you show the facts and don't let their negative comments get to you. It sounds a little posh or possibly elitist, but really thats the only way to take notice.

There are leaders and then there are followers. What you described reads like a religion. Follow the light, follow the way, follow the truth.

I hope when you convince your flock to follow you ...you're able to explain how bad dealerships are in servicing diesels. Are you also requesting followers to do their own service by themselves?

I'll tell you, it's nice to be enthusiastic ...even passionate about diesels, but frankly most of us would be absolutely revolted by our oilburner purchases if having to deal with the dealership service counters.

This past weekend I brought [drove] someone down to buy a diesel New Beetle, 2006 DSG PKI from Chris in Langhorne, PA. He is a CT resident and had owned volkswagens for years. Let's see, a 1962 Beetle, 1967 Bus, 1970 Bus, 1976 Bus and a ...1984 Jetta diesel. All were purchased brand spakin' new during the respective model years as listed. His one hesitation of buying another volkwagen was due to service. He hated dealing with VW service. He's 77 years old and asked ...do I have to hunt high and low for a back yard mechanic to fix my car or do I leave my pants at the VW Service counter like back in the olde days.

I told him, "You gottah start looking for a good back yard mechanic again."

Just to test I was waiting around the parts department at Langhone on Saturday during the pick-up of a NB PKI DSG. I met the "LEAD HEAD MECHANIC" at the soda machine up at service. I asked him what he did. He said, "I do everything, I'm the lead mechanic."

I asked him if he does timing belts on diesel volkwagens.

He said YES, LOADS!

I asked him if he replaced the one time use Torque to Yield Bolts on the motor mounts during the timing belt replacement.

He said, "There's no need actually, I never replaced the bolts because if you're careful you can always reuse them.

I said, "In the Bently it states to replace them and not reuse them because these are stretch bolts."

He said, "Yes, the Bently states to replace them ...but if you reuse them and these bolts break it's because a mechanic used an air tool on them."

I said, "Why not just replace them ...the bolts are really not expensive."

He said, "Customers shop price so we try to keep the price down."

Later that afternoon my 77 year old friend said, "Is that a good place to have a Diesel Serviced?"

I said, "Yes, as good as any service department country wide at Volkswagen ...so shop for a back yard mechanic, a good one."

 

[kcfoxie]

You've got a good point, I neglect to mention I've got a fed up with the Dealership management VWoA Certified (as of 2004) TDI tech who works at a local shop in Durham. On that front, we know an honest down to earth mechanic who personally owns a series of Diesel VWs. I guess we're fortunate here, I've had many issues with the dealers here as well. I neglect that aspect constantly, I assume everyone can handle a timing belt.

However, more demand means more shops means more competition and hopefully better quality to boot --- ok, so everything but the quality will probbaly surface. You've got this issue with ANY vehicle, though. Diesels aren't really an exception. I see many shops that work on diesels ... but we are a trucking area (as was Memphis -- diesel fuel and mechanics are still plentiful there).

I do advocate DIY work when possible, and give a list of shops (In/Around Raleigh) that can do the work if you can't or don't feel capable. But for diesels to become mainstream that would also mean that many of them get traded within 40,000 miles for maximum value. When there are more being sold, more being made, brands will start to depreciate where they once appreciated. So, really, to the 'average' car buyer... they'll replace the oil three to four times, and that should be IT for the "life" of the car to them. If you think I'm insane then tell me how Carmax gets so many cars with less than 40,000 miles. Even 60,000 -- when the belt is due, we'll say, would be the time to trade. It would work, service isn't that big of an issue. Demand for the motor would negate more service centers opening to cash in on the trend.

 

[VW JUNKY]

Can a Jetta TDI pull a 5000lbs camper to the mountains and to the beach. The Hummer H2 is more versitile than a Jetta TDI.

I guess it all comes down to what you need a car for. Some just do city, some do Highway and City and some do nothing but Highway. There is no subsitute for a good truck when you need one. I have just adapted my TDI to do what i need it too with trailers and roof racks. Only thing that will get me out of it is a Diesel Mini van which will be not as good on fuel but overall very usefull with kids.
Camping, I like tent too but the wife like the little camper.
If it weren't for batteries I would think Hybrid. If I did do the battery thing I would make my 1961 vw single cab into one as it can hold a bunch of batteries in the belly under the truck bed. Would be a great way to get to work!
I am really looking for the day when fuel cells especially one that can fit in older vehicles. LOL! Maybe when i retire.
later