2007 IS the year of the DIESEL

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
How will there be a diesel market in the USA with diesel prices way above gasoline prices? You could not convince anyone to go diesel even when the price of diesel fuel was lower than gas. You sure are not going to do it with the current price difference. The only way that diesels will come into favor in the US is for diesel fuel to cost less than gas by about .50 cents. Sorry to say I doubt that will happen. The only reason all the auto manufacturers are coming out with diesel models for 08 is to get their average fleet mileage up. The new diesel models comming out in 08 will be short lived. Hopefully someone will come out with a workable diesel electric hybrid that will get fantastic mileage. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE would love to see the US become a diesel loving society more than me. Sorry it just ain't going to happen. And that really HURTS!
 

bigEZ

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so let it be written, so let it be done. glad the official pronouncement has come from dweisel that we have nothing to look forward to.

all diesels need to be hot are celebrities to start showing up at awards shows in them. most people are sheep and will follow where their celebs lead them, just like with hybrids.
 

donDavide

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Not me!!!

bigEZ said:
so let it be written, so let it be done. glad the official pronouncement has come from dweisel that we have nothing to look forward to.

all diesels need to be hot are celebrities to start showing up at awards shows in them. most people are sheep and will follow where their celebs lead them, just like with hybrids.
Not me. In fact it is the opposite. What ever the the celebs are for i am against. Maybe on day a conservative will roll up in a Toureg TDi
 

donDavide

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dweisel said:
How will there be a diesel market in the USA with diesel prices way above gasoline prices? You could not convince anyone to go diesel even when the price of diesel fuel was lower than gas. You sure are not going to do it with the current price difference. The only way that diesels will come into favor in the US is for diesel fuel to cost less than gas by about .50 cents. Sorry to say I doubt that will happen. The only reason all the auto manufacturers are coming out with diesel models for 08 is to get their average fleet mileage up. The new diesel models comming out in 08 will be short lived. Hopefully someone will come out with a workable diesel electric hybrid that will get fantastic mileage. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE would love to see the US become a diesel loving society more than me. Sorry it just ain't going to happen. And that really HURTS!
It is still cheaper run a Jetta TDi than the 2.5.
 

BeetleGo

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Diesel will have to be 30-40% more expensive than regular gas (year round) to make the difference you descibe Dwiezel. The low-end grunt of a diesel is also something that a gasser can't always necessarily match. :D;) You may even be voicing what a lot of people might think, but the market for diesels isn't open and ready for mainstream (yet). The early adopters will get ahold of the newer diesel first. The rest will follow soon enough, especially if being able to use biodiesel becomes an added reason to switch over. We will see.

This is more complicated than you describe things to be....

~BeetleGo
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
donDavide
I know that and you know that,but convince enough other car buyers of that so that diesel sales will be enough to keep it going. All I'm saying is that the diesel market got shot down in the US before and its going to happen again, but i guess only time will tell.
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
bigEZ, we sure do have a huge selection of diesels to pick from here in the USA. If you want a particular make and model of the 08's you better buy one within three years,because thats about all the time the manufacturers will make them available here.
 

Steve-o

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I really don't think it will be that hard for diesels to catch on. Efforts like Audi's help; so do people like Willie Nelson and Bonnie Raitt (both travel using biodiesel), and I'm guessing a few more celebs will find running bio-d attractive even for themselves. Geez, look at the statements people like Leonardo DaCaprio (sp?) and Daryll Hannah have made with hybrids. Whether it's one's personal bent or not, lots of people take cues from celebrities. If celebs think diesel is cool, Joe and Jane Public will become interested. If it takes bio-d to get a foot in the door, fine with me.

One aspect of the argument here that I have never understood is the notion that diesel will be impossible to sell to people if the price of diesel is more than that of RUL. Using VW as an example, tens of thousands of people shelled out extra to get the 1.8T into their A4s, even though it gets worse mileage than the 2.slow and requires PUL. Buyers considered it a performance upgrade, and, therefore, worth the price. How many people jam Hemis into their Mopar products, even though they pay out the nose for it first to buy it and then repeatedly at the gas pump?

So obviously people have no problem spending extra money for an engine that offers better performance than stock. Or spending extra money for the fuel to run it. So why do people think that diesels can't possibly sell when people do it all the time with gassers? Especially when diesel will get you better mileage than the stock engine or the performance alternative.
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
steve-o, now your getting it. Most people in the USA want power and performance and they don't see that in a fuel miserly diesel. Most people don't mind paying for a bigger more powerful "gas" engine. I've own diesels since 87 when I bought a new Jeep Cherokee that was equiped with a 2.1 Renault turbo diesel.There were only about 1500 of them sold. I gave it to a friend and he is still driving it with 260k+ on it. New it got 32 highway and 27 city. It was and is a great vehicle. But do you think many people wanted them. Most Jeep dealers didn't even know that it was available and some will still deny that it ever existed. I've own nothing but diesels since and will continue to own diesels. I've waited for years for diesels to become popular and it just doesn't seem to happen here in the USA.
 

lbhskier37

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If the automotive industry wants to make it popular, it will become popular. All they have to do is make it seem "cool", advertising companys have been doing it for years. VW didn't push TDIs because they couldnt bring many in, but if they can bring in as many as they want they will have a reason to push them. Do you think anyone in this country would have bought a Scion if they never advertised those fugly things and convinced the public they were "cool"? If VW and Honda and whoever brings these new diesels over really wants to sell them they shouldn't have a problem.
 

Gettin50MPGs

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dweisel said:
I truely hope that I am wrong. How many people have you personally been able to convert over to diesel???
The overt, greedy and sickening rise in diesel fuel is always the first thing that comes out of peoples mouths when it comes to diesel fule. I can't stand it, I have to explain to them 45mpg at $2.50 is < 22mpg at $2.07.

Again, why defeats this argument if we can get the 70mpg + hgwy Honda Accords, VW Lupos and Toyotas that are sold en masse in Europe and Asia.
 

TDIPASSATGUY

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The past is the past. We had slow-mo diesels, and as soon as gas prices went down, the diesel got killed.

The present is the present. Now we have performance diesels that are more pleasureable to drive on the highway than the same car in gasser mode, just as driveable in the city, AND gets better mileage. A chipped TDI runs better than a stock 1.8T that uses PREMIUM (10% lower cost than diesel) and gets 35% less mileage.

The future is (will have a place for) diesel. Greener and leaner, with even more punch.

Another thing we have now. INTERNET. How many of us would have a TDI if we waited for the television to tell us we wanted one? Has VW even spent the FIRST dollar advertising them? News articles, blogs, and chatrooms have sold most of the current diesels. The only diesel ad I have ever seen is Dr Dieter selling Jeep diesels (that don't actually exist yet).

Now that I have one, I would prefer it over a gasser at equal cost per mile. Learn to drive the torque and you will never miss a car with a rev limiter.
 
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winter

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dweisel said:
I truely hope that I am wrong. How many people have you personally been able to convert over to diesel???
2 for me. One ride in my RC+3 Golf, and one smoked-out older Audi behind me has two people seriously looking for a TDI then can enjoy as much as i do mine. Personally, it may take another $3.50/ gal. fuel crisis to convert more people. One thing is for sure... America runs on diesel and variations of it (18 wheelers, trains, jets etc), so you can bet that it there ever is a true shortage of fuel in this country, they will use more crude to make diesel as opposed to gasoline. Our diesel days are coming!
 

bigEZ

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dweisel said:
bigEZ, we sure do have a huge selection of diesels to pick from here in the USA. If you want a particular make and model of the 08's you better buy one within three years,because thats about all the time the manufacturers will make them available here.
can you see the future or something? i hate matter-of-fact statements which have no substance behind them. if you have some real info which supports your theories, please feel free to share them.

if, as you say, all these auto makers are just using diesels to help cafe #'s, why in the world would they be spending so much time, effort and money in r&d and promotion? honda, dcx, vw, audi, possibly toyota, subaru: all these companies are just having diesels as short-term fads?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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This is purely my opinion, and I don't think diesels will ever be more than a niche here. American drivers overall (excepting folks here, of course) want much less involvement with their cars than most Europeans. And driving a diesel takes some measure of involvement, or at least people think it does.
 

Dorado

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That's an incredibly optimist perspective, almost fantastical.:eek: 2007 is the year in which only one model of a diesel powered passenger vehicle was for sale in the US, and it's a $50k Mercedes that gets about 40 MPG. That's it!

You can go all over the world and people will be greatly shocked to hear that in the US no diesels are available for sale in cars but that one MB model. Only one model from one manufacturer. No matter what you are willing to pay, nothing else is for sale here. It's not just the "idiot US consumer", the technology is just being kept away from the American public.
 

Txst

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BigAndy said:
VW could win on both counts by bringing back the A2 Jetta/Rabbit in a TDI diesel . Then nobody could say that the Jetta looks like a Corolla anymore:p
VW wouldn't have won a customer in me if they hadn't changed the way their Jetta's look. The only reason I went with an 06 Jetta was because they totally improved it's looks and size over older models. As far as my 06 TDI looking like a corolla...Corolla owners only wish that were true! Corollas are cheap and look it. I see no comparison between my TDI and Corollas except for some similarity in the rear styling. After that, there's no comparison. Have you driven a 06 Corolla? I have...feels like it was built in 1986, the interior is very cheaply done.
 

supton

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How many have I converted over? None. Maybe when we actually *have* a diesel selection, I will. *AND* decent dealers. When we *had* a diesel selection, one had to be a mechanic, 'cuz the only game in town (for most people) was clueless about VW service. [And still are.]

IMHO, no, diesel ought not be the new thing. Maybe if the refineries shift a bit more product over; but I'm not sure it's a great idea. Diesel prices are high because of demand. Increasing demand will only increase price. Maybe if a strong biodiesel push accompanied this diesel-desire trend, so as to provide more fuel, and to really make diesels "clean".

Don't get me wrong, I like biodiesel, I like diesels. Love my car. Fix VW dealers and/or bring lots more choice over, and it'll be a good thing. But be careful what you wish for.
 

03_01_TDI

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Unless ole shurb gets us involved with Iran. Fuel prices will allow the buyers to "afford" gassers.

One main problem is that diesel engines get compared by there Horsepower rating. Everybody understands that 100hp is "slow". If Diesel are to please the buyer it will take alot of mass advertisments - SHOWING over and over again that the diesel engines are just as fast or faster!

Any manufactor that brings a diesel engine to the market should also take great advantage of magazines and tv shows. All the editors to have them for a long term test drive. Need to convert a few of the power players to the smell of diesel.
 

candrews4tdi

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I agree that maybe "2007 is the start of the diesel revolution in NA." The 2008 model year line up will be the biggest test yet for the North America car buying public who may have hear about diesel technology, but have been up until now undecided. Especially with availability in all 50 states.

But the issue of diesel fuel being priced way above RUG will still be an issue for many folks. Even for those of us with diesel vehicles, it is an issue!

And there is the issue of emissions and the impact on people's health. The orginal post article has a link to this page:

http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_45/

The article raised the issue of the linkage between diesel emission and health problems. What it does not mention is whether the linkages are still as valid as they were before? With ULSD and Biodiesel pushing into retail fuel market more, are diesel emissions still the health issue the article claims them to be. And the BlueTec inititiative is promising to clean up diesel tail pipe emissions even further.
The emission and health topic is probably a whole other post for another time. But for people considering buying a diesel for the 1st time, they may look at an article like that one and be very concerned. More detailed data is needed so better informed decisions can be made.
 

BrianCT

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BigAndy said:
Well, there is that 50 state legal engine design that makes attempting to sell into this market a much better alternative than in 2006. 2007 marks the year of this change.
Great Point.

dweisel said:
The only reason all the auto manufacturers are coming out with diesel models for 08 is to get their average fleet mileage up.
This is a very good point but not as impactive as back in the 90's.

BeetleGo said:
Diesel will have to be 30-40% more expensive than regular gas (year round) to make the difference you descibe Dwiezel.
~BeetleGo
Not so true.

I have agruments with people all the time over this issue.

The question:

Them: "You own a diesel?"
Me: Yes.

Them: "Diesel fuel is much more expensive!"
Me: Yes, but I can drive 3 to 4 times further on a tank.

Them: "How much does it cost you to fill your tank?"
Me: $38.00

Them: "I pay $29 to fill mine, so you see it cost more to fill your tank."
Me: You don't get it do you?

Them: "What? That it costs you more to fill your tank then me?"
Me: Forget it

Steve-o said:
So obviously people have no problem spending extra money for an engine that offers better performance than stock. Or spending extra money for the fuel to run it.
03_01_TDI said:
One main problem is that diesel engines get compared by there Horsepower rating. Everybody understands that 100hp is "slow".
Answer to Steve-o question by 03_01_TDI

bigEZ said:
why in the world would they be spending so much time, effort and money in r&d and promotion? honda, dcx, vw, audi, possibly toyota, subaru: all these companies are just having diesels as short-term fads?
Fleets of diesel models and makers over in europe will have a chance to sell their existing diesel engines in cars we already drive/own and know. Honda, Toyota, Chryselr, Jeep, Land Rover, BMW, Renault, Nissan, Ford, all have models that run on diesel for decades in europe ...so the answer is those models can now be sold here. No short-term here, long term. I agree with big-EZ

IndigoBlueWagon said:
And driving a diesel takes some measure of involvement, or at least people think it does.
Probably the most truest statement made. Bravo. Jiffy Lube, Midas and In&Out quick lubes would be banned for the quick oil changes. Gelling in the winter, additives and remembering them during cold weather, and looking for a diesel fuel pump instead of looking for ANY gas station would be a pain in the arse. People would have to think for once while owning a vehicle. Never happen.

Dorado said:
It's not just the "idiot US consumer", the technology is just being kept away from the American public.
The push to diesel in europe was over fiscal tax being lower owning a diesel then a gasoline compared model. Diesel was always cheaper then gasoline too, at least when I was growing up in europe. People shopped price on fuel and a lower yearly fiscal tax and insurance by diesel. It wasn't that they loved diesels ...it was due to being insured, registered and run at a lower yearly cost then that of a gasoline model. Only recently in the past 10 years has the game been caught onto and the taxes to run your diesel caught up to gasoline comparitive makes/models.

You always bought a diesel because come September you got hit with heavy taxes. Diesel was always 1/3 to 1/4 the tax and 20% cheaper at the fuel pump per litre

Txst said:
The only reason I went with an 06 Jetta was because they totally improved it's looks and size over older models.
Absolutely true and as well a huge surge in fuel prices triggered its appeal.

supton said:
Fix VW dealers and/or bring lots more choice over, and it'll be a good thing. But be careful what you wish for.
Perhaps the only reason I'd never recommend a diesel to anyone I know ...knowing they'd be screwed royal by a service department who knows ZIP about diesels.
 

03_01_TDI

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100% agree with the above..

Plus-- new tecnology on diesel to meet emissions is also a "?" like extra filters and urea tanks? Most people don't even want to change 4 spark plugs much less refill some type of urea tank.
 

MrMopar

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dweisel said:
The only reason all the auto manufacturers are coming out with diesel models for 08 is to get their average fleet mileage up.
Nah, the car makers can do that just by fudging with the EPA category that the vehicle slots into. Example: Chrysler PT Cruiser. For CAFE purposes the EPA calls that a "light truck" because the seats fold flat in the cargo area or something like that. IIRC, there are 5 qualifications for a vehicle to be called a light truck, and if a vehicle meets 3 of them then the CAFE category is light truck. Same thing for the Chevy HHR, I'm sure. And probably the Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass/Jeep Patriot.

All these shenanigans means that Chrysler gets to sell more Hemi-powered this and that. Someone marginally famous once said "Follow the money." That's the same thing that applies to this. Any of the Big 3 companies still make fantastic amounts of profit on Pickups and SUVs. The Dodge Durango is just another body-on-frame pig, with old technology. Solid axles, pushrod engines, etc. Simple to build, and the profit is probably $10,000 on a fully-equipped model. Chrysler can make small profits on small vehicles that ordinarily wouldn't have a strong business case in the USA because they essentially subsidise these vehicles with the profits from their pickups and SUVs.

Diesel just doesn't fit into this specific equation. I think that more makers are pursuing diesel because of other gains, rather than inflating the CAFE numbers.
 

anahata

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Steve-o said:
I really don't think it will be that hard for diesels to catch on. Efforts like Audi's help; so do people like Willie Nelson and Bonnie Raitt (both travel using biodiesel)
So do Neil Young and the Dixie chicks :D
 

Gettin50MPGs

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bigEZ said:
...if, as you say, all these auto makers are just using diesels to help cafe #'s, why in the world would they be spending so much time, effort and money in r&d and promotion? honda, dcx, vw, audi, possibly toyota, subaru: all these companies are just having diesels as short-term fads?
Why aren't they importing the diesels they have NOW? Why weren't they importing them during the 90s and when gas pricess shot through the relatve roof here in the US recently?

The old tried and true "R&D" excuse is tired, we hear that from US presidents to US auto makers to US scientist while Europeans and Asians have been enjoying the 89mpg VW Lupo and the 75mpg Honda Accord and scores of other 40mpg+ luxury (Audi, MB, BMW) lines for 5 - 10 years now.

I dont know if they're want diesels just to meet CAFE standards but it sure makes more sense for them to do that than to present their already US spec diesels cars to the US markets.

I trust the automakers and the oil industry in this country as far as I can through them with a
broke arm.
 
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Gettin50MPGs

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MrMopar said:
...Diesel just doesn't fit into this specific equation. I think that more makers are pursuing diesel because of other gains, rather than inflating the CAFE numbers.
What would Detriot motor have to gain by selling diesel passanger cars in the US right now?

They have a line of diesel engines that could've been imported years ago.
 
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