2006 Jetta TDI Auto vs Man

[wjdell]

That of course is debatable - when in gear it uses no fuel. Coasting it does, but in gear a diesel sure will slow faster than a gas engine. My opinion is coasting does add a danger - lack of control and if you boo boo and press the button and actually made it to reverse. So I would say coasting is probably most advantageous when going down a grade, on a flat road its probably even.

 

[metallocene]

Talk about an entertaining post!

I was torn, as a manual shifter for 25yrs do I get a manual with only 5 up speeds; or, do I break tradition and go for the new DSG "automatic" 6 speed manual. The DSG has slightly better mpg's at highway speeds, but the 5 speed manual is significantly better in the city. The DSG is "neat" technology, the manual is "tried and true". What's a control systems engineer to do?

Salesman, "Did I mention that we have a slightly hail damaged TDI with a DSG for $4K off list?"

Really? Decision made, eh!

At 10 000km so far so good with the DSG. I still find my left foot heading to a phantom clutch on occasion. I hope to one day get over that....

The likes:
- the 6th gear, this TDI see's mostly highway miles, the 6th gear is in a nice place for 110-130km/h
- extremely fast and well timed shifts (although it's a bit of a hit on the ego, I am sure I could not time the changes better, the VW control and mechanical engineers have done a great job (or their subcontractor ...)); great for passing on the highway
- auto tranny's have a good resale, not sure what the exact upside is in terms of dollars but I've been told this many times at different dealers when trying to trade in my manual vehicles (seems logical as most folks drive auto tranny's these days but might have been just a bargaining ploy, seemed a bit too consistant for that though)
- the down shifting when one eases way back on the accelerator pedal. Nice to use the engine as a gentle brake, it's even been very good on ice (will see how the clutch plates hold up, though I've never had a problem in the past). Also, I find if I want to coast for that distant red light I just ease back on the accelerator a little and the car slowly decreases speed without dropping gears, all about timing the light. As to whether any significant amount of diesel is being burned during this speed decrease, that's another thread...
- finally, the DSG is pretty cool technology, big geek appeal

The dislikes:
- the slight hesitation when starting out from stop, I need to anticipate and hit the accelerator a bit early (left turn across traffic can get a bit "interesting"), definitely not intuitive.
- the ugly oil change, in terms of complexity and expense; the beer must have been flowing at that those design meetings...
- the increased initial cost vs a regular manual.
- it's new technology for the TDI, thus little history, lot's of moving parts, not sure about long term reliability

I'd be happy with either transmission but after running with the DSG on the highway for 6 months, I would lean toward the DSG.

That's my two cents. Love that diesel engine!

 

[EURO-BELG]

So I would say coasting is probably most advantageous when going down a grade, on a flat road its probably even.

Now coasting I would only do on a flat road.

2 things...

Down a grade, you ALWAYS stay in gear, even with a manual trans.

2, in the manual it prohibits driving in neutral down a hill, it will dammage the DSG.

Why coasting on a flat road....

Well put simple, the example again of the distant red light:

Leaving the DSG in gear it will start shifting back, and you are standing still in no time, so you would have to start from 0 again or keep driving it defeating the advantage of coasting.

With the manual trans, if you put it in neutral, you would be amazed how long you can coast! If I take the hwy exit and put the car in neutral, I'm still going at least 45 at the top of the exit, with the dsg in gear, I would be standing still in no time.

So, I guess it's a matter of how picky you are about saving fuel...

 

[wjdell]

Are you coming down the side of freaking Everest

or a slight grade on a Ohio road. On a flat road when you coast the diesel engine with DSG just stops you, period.


I have coasted many times in N testing and no damge yet.

 

[Marauderer]

Are you coming down the side of freaking Everest

or a slight grade on a Ohio road. On a flat road when you coast the diesel engine with DSG just stops you, period.


I have coasted many times in N testing and no damge yet.

This thread is neat.

A little testy aren't we WJD.

I love my DSG and wish EB would get rid of hers and quit whining about the neatest gearbox ever produced to date on the planet. JMNSHO!

 

[DrSmile]

The trickery of DSG is in the advertising... The out-performance of DSG is totally artificially exaggerated. To wit this page regarding the TDI Touran, note it's official VW info:

http://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/medias_publish/ms/content/de/pressemitteilungen/2004/04/26/dsg__plus_tdi__im.standard.gid-oeffentlichkeit.html

"Die identisch motorisierten Touran mit Direktschaltgetriebe übertreffen die Beschleunigungswerte der Handschalter um bis zu 0,3 Sekunden. Identisch ist dagegen mit 177 km/h (Touran 1,9 TDI) und 197 km/h (Touran 2.0 TDI) die Höchstgeschwindigkeit. Für die besseren Werte ist jedoch die Tatsache verantwortlich, dass die DSG-Modelle aufgrund einer modifizierten Motorabstimmung drei bzw. vier kW mehr Leistung entwickeln."

Allow me to translate:

"The identical motor equipped Touran with DSG beats the acceleration numbers of the manual version by up to 0.3 seconds. The top speed of the 1.9TDI (177 km/h) and the 2.0TDI (197km/h) are identical. Responsible for the difference however is THE FACT THAT THE DSG MODELS (note it says models, not model!) PRODUCE 3-4 MORE KW OF POWER DUE TO MODIFIED ENGINE TUNING."

Anyone claiming the DSG is faster or more efficient than a manual is not telling the entire story. It isn't faster at the same power output, and it isn't as efficient at the same rpm.

 

[Marauderer]

The trickery of DSG is in the advertising... The out-performance of DSG is totally artificially exaggerated. To wit this page regarding the TDI Touran, note it's official VW info:

http://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/medias_publish/ms/content/de/pressemitteilungen/2004/04/26/dsg__plus_tdi__im.standard.gid-oeffentlichkeit.html

"Die identisch motorisierten Touran mit Direktschaltgetriebe übertreffen die Beschleunigungswerte der Handschalter um bis zu 0,3 Sekunden. Identisch ist dagegen mit 177 km/h (Touran 1,9 TDI) und 197 km/h (Touran 2.0 TDI) die Höchstgeschwindigkeit. Für die besseren Werte ist jedoch die Tatsache verantwortlich, dass die DSG-Modelle aufgrund einer modifizierten Motorabstimmung drei bzw. vier kW mehr Leistung entwickeln."

Allow me to translate:

"The identical motor equipped Touran with DSG beats the acceleration numbers of the manual version by up to 0.3 seconds. The top speed of the 1.9TDI (177 km/h) and the 2.0TDI (197km/h) are identical. Responsible for the difference however is THE FACT THAT THE DSG MODELS (note it says models, not model!) PRODUCE 3-4 MORE KW OF POWER DUE TO MODIFIED ENGINE TUNING."

Anyone claiming the DSG is faster or more efficient than a manual is not telling the entire story. It isn't faster at the same power output, and it isn't as efficient at the same rpm.

Uhhhhhhhhh, if I get your drift that means that all things = the DSG will not get as good milage.

How'd I do?? Do I get the gold ring??

 

[DrSmile]

You get a reductionary red card. Silly me, I'm just trying to provide information not readily available.

 

[Marauderer]

You get a reductionary red card. Silly me, I'm just trying to provide information not readily available.

Sorry, I have a marginal sense of Humor. Not meant to offend. And yes you did provide information that I, for one, would have never found. My Bad!

What you posted just confirms what I already knew from years of dealing with different vehicles and bench racing with friends.

 

[Dunno513]

eight speed automated manual is not far

It's actually here in a Lexus.

As for this post. It's like apples and oranges. There is no one above the other.

Check this link out for a good video on the DSG.

http://www.vwasia.com/publish/vwasia/new_zealand/en/experience/technology/dsg_transmission.html
make sure you wait for it to completely download. (dialup need not apply)

 

[wjdell]

If the manual is really better than a automated manual - maybe someone should email all the Formula racing teams they are using the wrong trans.


I saw that - lexus -

 

[DrSmile]

The choice of transmission depends on the application. F1 isn't worried about fuel efficiency or the transmission robbing power from the engine, they have almost limitless power to play with and they refuel very often... and of course you are well aware that an F1 trans is NOT DSG. A DSG can perform well, for example repetitive shifting (like racing), but there are two applications where it won't: 1) Trying to maximize fuel efficiency and 2) Trying to put the most amount of (limited) power to the ground.

For most people, tuning the engine for more power won't make a difference. For people trying to gain maximum fuel efficiency or trying to squeeze the most amount of power from a car it will. For example my Evolution is tuned to run just below the knock threshold at 23psi with toluene modified super unleaded. The DSG version would be slower.

I just think the advertising of the DSG is very deceptive. Considering Piech and his historical antics, I guess I shouldn't really be surprised.

 

[wjdell]

Yes a DSG is a automated manual developed by Borg Warner and licensed to VW. The technology began in Italy farrari I believe.

Is the manual more efficent - on paper yes, does that mean the average driver will do better, no. The difference is negligible when compared to a conventional automatic.

So it comes down to what you want and for those who prefer automated shifting its the cats meow. Remember the dual mass flywheel has its issues and unless VW exptends the warranty many will pay this cost.

As far as competitive shifting, no human can compete for any length of time. The resale is higher - look at the book. Check your insurance and see what the difference is.

So if you are going for the record get them cool rear wheel covers and 15 " wheels and tires and wait for the 6 speed. The CDI will net more than the PD.

In my case I say overall, "all things compared" the DSG has the clear advantage now, and in the future. Can you imagine humans dealing with ten forward speeds one day, the computer could care less.

 

[Marauderer]

Yes a DSG is a automated manual developed by Borg Warner and licensed to VW. The technology began in Italy farrari I believe.

Is the manual more efficent - on paper yes, does that mean the average driver will do better, no. The difference is negligible when compared to a conventional automatic.

So it comes down to what you want and for those who prefer automated shifting its the cats meow. Remember the dual mass flywheel has its issues and unless VW exptends the warranty many will pay this cost.

As far as competitive shifting, no human can compete for any length of time. The resale is higher - look at the book. Check your insurance and see what the difference is.

So if you are going for the record get them cool rear wheel covers and 15 " wheels and tires and wait for the 6 speed. The CDI will net more than the PD.

In my case I say overall, "all things compared" the DSG has the clear advantage now, and in the future. Can you imagine humans dealing with ten forward speeds one day, the computer could care less.

First I agree with WJD.

Second I got this from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Direct-Shift Gearbox (Direktschaltgetriebe) is a dual-clutch gearbox designed by BorgWarner and initially licensed to Volkswagen Group (which owns the Volkswagen, Audi, SEAT, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Škoda brands). By using two clutches, fast shifts can be achieved, and the torque converter of a regular automatic transmission is eliminated.

Essentially, the engine drives both clutch packs. The outer clutch pack drives gears 1, 3, and 5 (and reverse). The inner clutch pack drives gears 2, 4, and 6. Instead of a standard large dry clutch, each clutch pack is a collection of four small wet interleaved clutch plates. Due to space constraints, the two clutch assemblies are concentric. Because the alternate clutch pack's gearing can be pre-selected (predictive shifts taking place while the other section is in use), un-powered time while shifting is avoided because power is simply switched from one gearbox to the other. The DSG takes about 80 milliseconds to upshift[1]. Compare that to the SMT in the Enzo Ferrari, which takes 150 ms to upshift[1]. The quoted time for upshifts is the time the wheels are completely non-powered

Once the driver has selected D for drive, the transmissions first clutch is engaged and the first gear is selected on the first shaft. The driver instructs the car to accelerate, as the car accelerates the transmissions computer lines up second gear on the second shaft (which coincidentally is connected to the second clutch). Depending on the amount of power being requested by the driver (full throttle or normal driving) the car then up shifts. During this sequence, the DSG disengages the first clutch while engaging the second clutch (all power from the engine is now going through the second shaft), thus completing the shift sequence. This sequence happens in 80 ms, and there is practically no power loss.
Once the vehicle has shifted up to second gear, third gear is lined up and is pending. Once the time comes to shift, the second clutch disengages and the first clutch re-engages. Downshifting is similar to up shifting but in reverse order. The cars computer senses the car slowing down or more power required, and thus lines up a lower gear on one of the shafts not in use, and then completes the downshift.

Advantages
· Extreme fast up shift and downshift time of 80 milliseconds
· Practically no power loss whatsoever, because of the short shift time
· Better fuel economy than the planetary geared automatic transmission and manual transmission
· When the car is going downhill the clutch disengages, allowing the car to coast

Disadvantages
· Response time from letting off the throttle and then reapplying is lengthy, around 400ms, depending on the situation
· Can be expensive to manufacture, this discourages many automakers

Notes
1. ^ a b How the Direct Shift Gearbox works - from About.com Cars
External links
· Direct Shift Gearbox DSG
· Technical explanation of manual transmissions
· Audi TT 3.2 DSG review
· Informative article from Just-Auto.com
· Video comparing a Golf GTI with a manual transmission and a Golf GTI with DSG
· Audi DSG video

All that said there are some myself sometimes that do not embrace new technology. But for myself I am tickled to death about my DSG/TDI.

 

[DrSmile]

I'm in no way saying the DSG isn't a great transmission. But it is what Volkswagen claims it to be: an excellent improvement and replacement for an AUTOMATIC transmission. FYI the technology was developed by Porsche, not Ferrari. Ferrari developed the F1 paddle shift sequential transmission which is entirely different (and was used in Formula racing). And the transmissions for the Bugatti Veyron and the Koenigsegg CCX, although touted as DSG, are actually not made by Borg Warner at all, but instead by Ricardo and Cima respectively, and are termed "Dual Clutch" transmissions (DCT).

One thing the Wikipedia article also glosses over rather glibly is the .4 second downshifts. Not only is that a long time, but the timing of the shift is usually not when you want it to be.

People always read the articles and somehow neglect to read the part where the comparison is to an automatic, not a manual. So yes, if you are deciding between a conventional torque converter auto or a DSG, the DSG is far superior.

 

[Marauderer]

So, since this is the USA, it is OK to disagree, Yes?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I've read that the R32 with DSG has been tuned to a higher power level to advantage the DSG. I have an R32 airbox because it has a larger opening than any other MKIV airbox, which is reported to be part of the tune.

I love shifting for myself too much to give up my foot operated clutch. Eight speeds? Bring 'em on!

 

[wjdell]

History tends to contradict itself - getting away from the DSG and talking more in terms of AUTOMATED MANUALS, not the specifically the DSG. I think it was Fararri. The trans was not successful, to slow tech not up to it at that point. But the documentation claimed it was the first automated manual. Actually it was a doc on TV not the net, but they could be wrong I suppose. The Lexas 8 speed is not a DSG, I think its different and there are other designs in the works. I also think other makers are getting licensed for a form of DSG. Its the future no matter what.

 

[6006spd]

ya please trade your car and get what you want!the whining is killing us all!my 06 jetta dsg? i wouldnt trade it 4 anything,its awsum!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[domboy]

ya please trade your car and get what you want!

I agree. When the 08's with the 6spd come out, trade the DSG for one of them. You'll get the good resale value from the DSG and get what you really want. That's what I did. I finally could stand it any longer, so I bought my 5spd TDI (which I wouldn't trade for anything) and sold the Chevy Cavalier automatic.... yes yes yes!!!

 

[Marauderer]

I agree. When the 08's with the 6spd come out, trade the DSG for one of them. You'll get the good resale value from the DSG and get what you really want. That's what I did. I finally could stand it any longer, so I bought my 5spd TDI (which I wouldn't trade for anything) and sold the Chevy Cavalier automatic.... yes yes yes!!!

TDI instead of a Cavalier. Great decision!!
Trade DSG for a 6 sp. Great decision for some. Bad for me as I really really like my D.S.G.!!!

 

[TurbinePower]

In my case I say overall, "all things compared" the DSG has the clear advantage now, and in the future. Can you imagine humans dealing with ten forward speeds one day, the computer could care less.

I'd drive one.

But then, I'd try driving a manual even if my left leg was in a cast.

[edit]Now, I'm wondering if perhaps the DSG clutchpack and concept could be hybridized into a fully manual, dual clutch, sequentially selected transmission? It works in my head, sorta... Lemme keep thinking about this. All the advantages of the manual, but with the faster shifting of a dual-clutch job also possible... Thinking...

 

[Fix_Until_Broke]

I'd drive one.

But then, I'd try driving a manual even if my left leg was in a cast.

[edit]Now, I'm wondering if perhaps the DSG clutchpack and concept could be hybridized into a fully manual, dual clutch, sequentially selected transmission? It works in my head, sorta... Lemme keep thinking about this. All the advantages of the manual, but with the faster shifting of a dual-clutch job also possible... Thinking...

Can you say Lenco?

You want 3 speeds, bolt 3 together, select the ratios right and you can have 5 speeds as you can shift them in any order. 10 speeds? You're going to have a lot of levers to pull. Could be hard to fit in a front wheel drive application though. If they made them thin enough maybe...

Might spill your coffee and chirp the tires on every shift

 

[fixer]

I think the DSG is a great invention, I prefer the manual. Regardless of the EPA numbers I think its clear that the manual returns higher MPG. All you need to do is examine the monthly fuel mileage contests. They clearly show that the 5M beats the DSG in the A5 consistently and convincingly. My lifetime MPG over more then 40,000 miles is close to 48 MPG. I've never had a tank less than 41 MPG. I have many tanks over 50 MPG and one of 58 MPG. I don't drive to extract every last MPG. I'm sure there are other 5Ms that beat my numbers, but can anyone with a DSG say the same?

 

[wjdell]

I apoligise for the TESTY post - I should have put a smiley - . I do not believe the month competition is accurate for us to rate. we need a lifetime post were we get monthy updates to the lifetime average starting after 5k maybe to compensate for the rigorus breakin in.

I have a lifetime of 41.9 with 17" wheels and 505.01 oil. If I drop the first 5k I am at 43.5 now add what for 17" wheels and you can clearly see I am running neck and neck with the manual.

If any one has any questions and would like to see the spreadsheet send me a email and I will send a spread sheet with entire history - not just a few tanks but 40 tanks with dates.

I have never run a full tank without A/C - to test once I hooked up the laptop and took a warm engine rolled at 41 mph for 86 miles and got 66 mpg - that is not real world and a lifetime average would show this. None of us hve identical routes or conditions. Commutes less than 25 miles have a big disadvantage. My commute being less than 50 I could never post the figure that a person with a 80 mile commute could. The cold start penaty is more than you realize.

 

[Marauderer]

I apoligise for the TESTY post.

Doggoneit!! I missed it. Hmmmm WJD.................Testy

DSG vs. Manual is just like an oil thread anymore, or tire thread or oil filter thread.

If anyone is really wondering I side with WJD. I don't think that DSG owners are quite the milage purist that a lot of the manual owners are. Folks with DSGs want good milage but, they like higher performance tires and other items that pulls the milage down a bit so it's like comparing apples to oranges to an extent.

JMNSHO!

 

[wjdell]

we are just having fun here Marauder - A real pro can outdirve a DSG for a limited period of time. Its 50 pounds lighter and it takes less energy to operate than the fluid clutch - but the difference is minimal and we need lifetime stats to show this.

The car description - oil and wheels, 16 will do better than 17 and 506.01 will be a tad better than 505.01.

Then we have to consider the geographical location and make sure we have a accurate hwy - rural - city %.

One way to do this is for two of us to get together and run a test.

We run the same route - the same speed - If there is a 5 speed in Central Florida area I have a test route were we can even go slow no stops 67 miles two stop signs in 86 miles. We could top off at my house and start the test. prefer a 5 speed using 505.01 and 17" wheels. I have about 14k on my odo

 

[Marauderer]

I am ready to come to Central Florida

we are just having fun here Marauder - A real pro can outdirve a DSG for a limited period of time. Its 50 pounds lighter and it takes less energy to operate than the fluid clutch - but the difference is minimal and we need lifetime stats to show this. The car description - oil and wheels, 16 will do better than 17 and 506.01 will be a tad better than 505.01. Then we have to consider the geographical location and make sure we have a accurate hwy - rural - city %. One way to do this is for two of us to get together and run a test. We run the same route - the same speed - If there is a 5 speed in Central Florida area I have a test route were we can even go slow no stops 67 miles two stop signs in 86 miles. We could top off at my house and start the test. prefer a 5 speed using 505.01 and 17" wheels. I have about 14k on my odo

Gee, I didn't put enough smileys in my post/ I was having fun also.

WJD, I think with your run there are still to many variables to have a clear winner. Could have significant differences in engine performance. Just 17" wheels is not the real factor. Wheel weight,tire coeffiecient of adhesion, tire profile, and tire pressure are all significant factors to be considered.

I would bring my A5 down and be a participant if you let me.

 

[wjdell]

YOU could but we need a manual to make the test, and yes two 06 one DSG and one 5 Speed pure stock. That is why I say a pure stock 06 5 speed with 17" Vision V wheels and any 505.01 oil. No its not perfect you would want to run at least 5 of each, but it would be something.

 

[Marauderer]

Yea, my suspension is all stock and I don't really have enough miles to get the big bump in milage yet. And I am running the 16" factory wheels and tires ( good for milage though) but have the RC1+ (which would be an interesting factor) that Jeff's says maps out stock up to 3/4 throttle. Oh well my offers stands. Let me know if you want me to show up.