2005 BEW PD lift pump operation and internals

[kraftwerkturbo]

Note: 2 O rings on the "Thermostatic T" (who came up with this name? Is it really called that way? What function does it have?). But I did NOT compare the new filter (appeared OEM) and the old filter (ditto) with respect to what might be "in" the top where the "Thermo T" goes. Include if something was 'stuffed in there' that I was supposed to remove?

Guess will take the new filter off and swap the old one back in, just for kicks.
And get O rings.

 

[whitedog]

It's tee shaped and it controls the flow of fuel to the filter or tank based on temperature.

 

[kraftwerkturbo]

Found new O rings (turns out I had another new MANN filter in box; all 3 filters - old, new one installed, new in box are MANN). Installed. Leaking like crazy.
Found when pushing down on the T, it is better.
Rigged a wire to hold it down. No change.
Found that pushing down on the blue nipple going to engine reduces leak. Put wire on to pull it down, reduces leak to drip rate.

It appears my "T" is cracked or otherwise not sealing well.

Is the T fitting I need for my 2005 Golf TDI BEW the same as used on other (ALH for example) cars?

Do these part numbers fit?
1- Diesel Fuel Filter 1J0 127 247A
1-Check Valve 1J0 127 401A

ID parts says for the Thermal T: 1J0127247A
Volkswagen
Golf TDI MkIV (A4 chassis) w/ ALH Engine (1999-2003)
Golf TDI MkIV (A4 chassis) w/ BEW Engine (2004-2006)
Jetta TDI MkIV (A4 chassis) w/ ALH Engine (1999-2003)
Jetta TDI MkIV (A4 chassis) w/ BEW Engine (2004-2005)
New Beetle TDI (A4 chassis) w/ ALH Engine (1998-2003)
New Beetle TDI (A4 chassis) w/ BEW Engine (2004-2006)
Passat TDI (B5.5 chassis) w/ BHW Engine (2004-2005)

 

[whitedog]

Is the Mickey Mouse clip in place to hold down the thermo tee?

 

[kraftwerkturbo]

Yes. Ordered a new Febi, but will take days to get here. May take the T out again and check for cracks.

Or it is just all a function of the wrong VDO in tank "lift" pump I got from the JY (2004 Jetta; part number above).

Engine running fine.

BTW: What are the 4 lines? Is below correct?

blue from intank lift pump
black to intank lift pump
blue to engine pump
black from engine pump

 

[whitedog]

There is a picture in that no start thread showing which hoses go where.

 

[Lensdude_com]

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/516/medium/00000001.PNG

 

[A5INKY]

I've got a bit of a head scratcher. Car is a '06 NB with a BEW engine. Very long cranking is required on a cold engine (not that cold, inside a warm shop) to get it to start and then it usually will high idle for 30+ seconds with no possibility of revving as the throttle pedal does nothing. Once the idle drops down it runs and drives.

I followed Dan's excellent guide and found I was getting less than expected out of the lift pump post filter, ~35ccs per cycle. I then tested for full flow and got just shy of 2 L/min. Checked dead-head pressure and is fine at 11psi. I then checked fuel flow out of the tandem pump return from just the lift pump and found almost none, which I understand is a good thing. Oddly, there was some foam starting to come out though... Started the engine to measure flow out of the tandem pump and got ~1.15 L/min which is slightly low from Dan's spec. There is a ton of foam coming out the tandem return consistently though. That is not good and I have little doubt is a symptom of my causal issue.

The air is not coming from the lift pump nor anything else leading to the tandem pump as verified by the lift pump full-flow test. The air causing the foam has to be coming from the head or tandem pump itself. Since the fuel rails in the head are only under pressure I don't see how air could be drawn into the fuel system there. That leaves the tandem pump. I have not read of one aerating the fuel before and am thinking it is either the suction side of the pump pulling it in internally, or could it be cavitation from the under-supplying lift pump? I'm inclined to replace the tandem pump because of never having read of cavitation producing the foam even with a dead lift pump. But, the lift pump appears weak too...

Anyone? Just looking for a sanity check.

TIA

 

[Lensdude_com]

have you already tried greasing the Thermo-T o-rings?

 

[A5INKY]

have you already tried greasing the Thermo-T o-rings?

Thanks for the thought, but:

...The air is not coming from the lift pump nor anything else leading to the tandem pump as verified by the lift pump full-flow test. The air causing the foam has to be coming from the head or tandem pump itself...

There is no air in the fuel feeding the tandem pump, only coming back out. So, can't be the thermo-T.

 

[mctdi]

? The gasket between tandem pump and head?

 

[jimbote]

maybe your injector seals are leaking and your getting combustion gasses in the fuel

 

[A5INKY]

? The gasket between tandem pump and head?

With the tandem putting 75+ psi on the head's fuel supply galley and the tandem's (in a properly functioning pump anyway) return check valve keeping ~15 psi on the return galley, I think a leaking tandem pump gasket would leak fuel, not suck air.

maybe your injector seals are leaking and your getting combustion gasses in the fuel

That is a possibility I suppose. Seems to me that a leak like that with a good tandem pump would also be leaking fuel into the cylinder too. The oil that came out of it didn't seem fuel contaminated. And there doesn't seem to be any excess smoke. I think also that I would have seen evidence of combustion gasses from the return fuel I captured out of the tandem while running. There was no smell of exhaust or sign of particulate in my clear container after a minute of fuel capture while testing flow.

I think your idea is plausible though. I will definitely be pulling injectors next if a fresh pump doesn't sort it out. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[GtTdiShane]

New to tdis

Hi lads I'm new to the forums so use could need patients with me I have a mk 4 golf gt tdi ajm engine 2001. The issue I'm having is on cold starts in the morning more so or even when it's been left for a couple of hours. When I go to start it it cranks quite a bit as if it has no diesel and when it does eventually starts it bellows out smoke and misfires for the first few seconds I think I have narrowed it down to fuel leaking back to the tank while it's not running. I done a couple of the tests suggested on this forum the lift pump is bringing diesel from the tank to the engine and there is a good flow from the return on the tandem pump. I noticed if I turn the ign. on/off roughly 10 times it starts better but it's far from right I'm really getting to the end of my teather with this car at this stage so any help will be much appreciated. Could it be the lift pump unit letting the diesel drain back?? Should the diesel coming back through the tandem pump have tiny air bubbles in it??
I've replaced the following:
4 injectors with new seals
All rubber pipes as they where perished
Fuel filter
Cam sensor
Cts
Fts
New battery
Removed starter and oiled up the gears etc.
New seal between the head and vac pump
Thanks in advance

 

[abused-TDI]

This shows the fine suction screen on the bottom of the electric pump, which sits inside the canister.

[/IMG]

How do I get the two halves of the canister apart to this view? I have the three tabs loose the two metal pins loose all the wires disconnected but if I try to lift the top of the canister off the bottom I feel a lot of resistance and I feel like I am going to break something. Trying to replace the pump motor and I am stuck at this point.

 

[abused-TDI]

I cut the fuel line coming from the pump. This let me get enough play in the fuel line to the top of the assembly to get the pins out. It's the little tab below the check valve I was fighting far bottom of the picture. This holds the check valve to the bottom portion of the canister.

 

[Deanbhula1]

Here is the sound my in tank fuel pump makes.... does this sound normal?
I thought it was supposed to be more a hum than a shudder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsTUyJvEawo

thanks for listening...

Hello, new to the forum. My 04 Jetta tdi started to make the same sound as the video linked above and I was wondering if anyone knew what it could be? The car also started to have a loss of power, it won't rev past 3k rpm...other than that thou it runs like normal, can cruise along on the freeway at 75mph just fine

 

[shuswap]

That is of course quite abnormal. I'm thinking relay? Voltage at the pump connectors?
If you have the bew pd engine the camshaft needs to be checked for wear....you don't want the lifters failing.

 

[DanG144]

I think you need a new pump. And I would not modify it.

 

[Deanbhula1]

Thanks for the responses! About not modifying the pump thou, wouldn't that end up leaving you stranded if the new pump fails?

 

[DanG144]

Yep. But they are much more reliable than the old ones.

 

[scurvy]

Great thread, Dan, thanks for your attention to detail in getting things documented.

My Golf just left me stranded for the first time in a decade Tuesday morning - cut off as I was going on a cloverleaf exit off I-57. Fortunately the light at the end of the exit was green and I was able to coast thru that light, down a hill and into a parking space at a Speedway station. Even more fortunately they graciously allowed me to leave my car there for two days while I sorted out why it quit!

Timing belt & tensioner were both OK, so I pulled a fuel line off my Nicktane/Caterpillar 2µm filter, stuck it in an empty washer fluid jug, cycled the key and saw no fuel spit out. Pulled the seat bottom, the access hatch and lifted the carpet, no sound. Fuse #28 looked good, so I ordered my replacement pump from IDParts.

Got it today, installed it in the Speedway parking lot. My Golf coughed to life after about 25 key cycles to purge air out of the lines. Still not 1000% happy with the gasket fit so I'll take the warm weekend to straighten it out before I attempt to brim the tank lest my floorboards get soaked with diesel.

The OEM pump that came out - 10 years and 280k km old - was physically broken, cracked!

The replacement pump was a Siemens VDO 1J0919050 "no suffix" grey & white deal. Love hearing the gurgle at key on again!

 

[JB05]

At your next tank refill, I suggest keeping the rear seat up with the pump exposed to detect any leaks. I did a paint and pray on the retaining ring, but that was not enough.

 

[scurvy]

At your next tank refill, I suggest keeping the rear seat up with the pump exposed to detect any leaks. I did a paint and pray on the retaining ring, but that was not enough.

I've still got the pump exposed but went ahead and ordered a fuel pump gasket (p/n 1J0919133). Mine was pretty loose and I have my doubts to its efficacy in the future. 10 years and 280,000 km of Illinois B11 have possibly led it to swell a bit. I should have ordered it along with the pump, but the one lift pump replacement I did on someone else's car, several years ago, the gasket was still in fine shape to reuse. Mine was like trying to stick a marshmallow into a parking meter.

Until it gets here, I'll just put in a couple gallons every few days to keep it well below a quarter tank. I'll also take the opportunity to get the debris out of the bottom of the tank this time, since I'll be doing this as a planned event in my driveway and not an impromptu performance in a gas station parking lot.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Those VDO / Siemens pumps have been suspect for me . The materials don't take the heat very well . I had 2 of them crack in the fuel return nipple and gashing diesel all over the back of the car

 

[DanG144]

Those VDO / Siemens pumps have been suspect for me . The materials don't take the heat very well . I had 2 of them crack in the fuel return nipple and gashing diesel all over the back of the car

I have never heard of this issue. The pumps have a sterling reputation around here, but perhaps I lead a sheltered life.

How many folks have had failures of these pumps, and what were the failure modes?

 

[JETaah]

I hope this has not already been asked about the tandem pumps.

When you do a pressure test via the port and things don't look the way they should, i.e. pressure won't go up to 109 PSI @ 4000 RPMs, is there any way that could be due to the injector rubber o-rings allowing the incoming fuel to pass to the outgoing. If I understand the fuel circuit, it should not make any difference. Am I correct on that?
There does not seem to be any external leaks and the crankcase oil level is not rising. The pressure at the port gets no higher than about 90 PSI and over 2500 RPM falters even more.

I guess I would like to be more certain that the tandem pump is solely to blame before shelling out the cash for a new one.

 

[mjydrafter]

Did you do the wear test from Dan's PDF? Basically, unhook the return line and put in a container, run the lift pump for a minute and measure the fuel output.

When I tested mine, it let 170 ml of fuel through (IIRC 25-30 ml was okay). So I didn't even pressure test it. I didn't have the correct adapter anyway.

The new one didn't let any fuel by when I put it on and tried to suck fuel through the return line with the Mity-Vac.

 

[DanG144]

It is not impossible for the injector o-rings to allow fuel to bypass the way you say. I have never heard of any 0-ring issues unless the injectors have been pulled and reinserted, though.

Are you sure you have adequate fuel supply to the tandem pump? That is more likely to be the issue (in my experience) than the injector O-rings leaking. Ensure you can get more than 3 liters per minute to the tandem pump.

VW, in their troubleshooting guides, assume the injector O-rings are good. If you want to build a fixture to pressurize the header with the tandem pump off, you could then check for leakage.

By the way, that 25 cc/min allowed leakage value in the tandem pump leak through test was an anal extraction on my part...they usually leak almost nothing. No real basis for it, just a number I would use.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

The VDO part number show the following applications:

Year(s) Make Model(s) Engine(s)
2006-2004 Volkswagen Beetle L4-116ci 1.9L MFI,L4-121ci 2.0L DI
2006 Volkswagen Beetle L4-121ci 2.0L MPI,L5-151ci 2.5L MFI
2005-2004 Volkswagen Beetle,Jetta L4 1.8L MFI,L4-121ci 2.0L MFI
2006-2005 Volkswagen Golf L4 1.8L MFI,L4-116ci 1.9L MFI,L4-121ci 2.0L MFI,L4-121ci 2.0L MPI
2005 Volkswagen Golf V6 2.8L MFI
2005-2004 Volkswagen Jetta L4-116ci 1.9L MFI,L4-121ci 2.0L MPI
2005 Volkswagen Jetta L5-151ci 2.5L MFI
2004 Volkswagen Jetta V6 2.8L MFI

Gas pumps won't work, they are 40+ psi, not sure why you have them crossing over,