2003 Jetta TDI... will run with assistance, otherwise no start.

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Do you have a CAN bus VCDS cable?
I only have a Kii-USB which doesn't work for '03 or newer TDI's.
The quantity collar inside the pump is pretty obvious whether you're in it or not but to check it requires a bit of disassembly which completely undoes the adjustment.
It's a very small window between running fine and not starting at all, at least on my '01 it is...
Always mark the adjuster before removal if you decide to check the collar.
As far as pump timing goes, there's a "sucker hole" when timing everything, which if used by mistake will set the pump totally out of time.
A friend learned that the hard way during his first TDI timing belt replacement shortly before I got my first TDI.
It ran fine before i had the new turbo installed on it..
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Latest update. New turbo. EGR deleted all together. Intake manifold clean of all gunk. EGR valve clean of all junk.

Note.
*Removed tube leading into EGR, cranked, flapper stayed open (like it should?)
*Unplugged maf sensor. Cranked. Still no start.
*I removed intake tube from filter housing. Choked it with my hand. Cranked. No start.
*took notice of an air bubble in the bend of the clear fuel line routing over upper intercooler pipe. Cranked car over and the bubble only moved an inch or 2 but didn't go away. Almost like fuel is not going through the line like it should maybe??
 
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whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Eric, Choking it with your hand won't work. When you do that, you cut off the air, but you don't get extra fuel like on a carburetor. Take all of the stuff you know about the fuel system of a gas engine and throw it into a box for if you have to work on one of those crappy things. You are working on a real engine now and you need a whole new box for the stuff you need to learn about it's fuel system.

I'm not going back through this thread to find out what all you have done, but you need to make sure that you don't have air in the fuel pump. That little bit of air will be there all the time and it won't move much at all, so you don't need to worry about it.

At this point you need to go through the No start thread linked in my signature. There are so many things it could be, we could spend hours and hours going back and forth trying one thing after another. You need to dig in with some instructions and get learn.
 

zukikat

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Location
Greater New Orleans area
TDI
2001 Jetta GLS, 2003 Jetta GLS Wagon
Personally I would've worked on making it run before modifying the stock setup with things like the EGR delete as now you've changed the rules of operation on a car that already wouldn't start on its own...

If I read things correctly, car was running, turbo failed miserably and caused the car to run bad, almost catastrophic.
Turbo got replaced and somewhere in that mix I read about the injection pump also being replaced but not sure why, and now the engine won't run via the fuel system.
Is all of that about right?

If the injection pump and injector lines haven't been bled/primed the car won't start.

If the injection pump was replaced and not properly timed and quantity adjusted the car probably won't start and can be so far out that it won't even cough or sputter or anything.

If you crack the line nuts loose somewhat on the injectors and crank it, does it make a fuel mess or do they stay dry? If you crack them loose and don't get fuel everywhere during cranking then the pump isn't primed, at the least, or the quantity adjustment is very wrong, assuming pump timing is even correct.

Seeing if you're getting fuel at the injectors is the easiest place to start.

Totally forget everything you know about gas engines and their various fuel delivery systems. Diesel is totally upside down and backwards in comparison, depending on your perspective of course... :)

Also note that although an ALH is usually running within a couple rotations of the starter or less, almost instantly under normal day to day circumstances, it takes a lot lore cranking on an unprimed ALH than you'd probably ever try on any gas engine to get it to start for the first time after prime loss. If you haven't gotten the oil pressure warning light and buzzer at least once already then you probably haven't cranked it nearly enough to re-prime it yet, although that's a good stopping point to let the starter rest a little before the next try.

A Mity-Vac (or equivalent), a line or crescent wrench, a vag-com, and a hammer can be your best friends with many ALH "won't start" issues.
There's one of each in the trunk of my '01 Jetta at all times.
Unfortunately my KII-USB vag-com cable doesn't speak CAN-BUS which started in 2003 so it couldn't help for your situation.
 
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ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Personally I would've worked on making it run before modifying the stock setup with things like the EGR delete as now you've changed the rules of operation on a car that already wouldn't start on its own...

If I read things correctly, car was running, turbo failed miserably and caused the car to run bad, almost catastrophic.
Turbo got replaced and somewhere in that mix I read about the injection pump also being replaced but not sure why, and now the engine won't run via the fuel system.
Is all of that about right?

If the injection pump and injector lines haven't been bled/primed the car won't start.

If the injection pump was replaced and not properly timed and quantity adjusted the car probably won't start and can be so far out that it won't even cough or sputter or anything.

If you crack the line nuts loose somewhat on the injectors and crank it, does it make a fuel mess or do they stay dry? If you crack them loose and don't get fuel everywhere during cranking then the pump isn't primed, at the least, or the quantity adjustment is very wrong, assuming pump timing is even correct.

Seeing if you're getting fuel at the injectors is the easiest place to start.

Totally forget everything you know about gas engines and their various fuel delivery systems. Diesel is totally upside down and backwards in comparison, depending on your perspective of course... :)

Also note that although an ALH is usually running within a couple rotations of the starter or less, almost instantly under normal day to day circumstances, it takes a lot lore cranking on an unprimed ALH than you'd probably ever try on any gas engine to get it to start for the first time after prime loss. If you haven't gotten the oil pressure warning light and buzzer at least once already then you probably haven't cranked it nearly enough to re-prime it yet, although that's a good stopping point to let the starter rest a little before the next try.

A Mity-Vac (or equivalent), a line or crescent wrench, a vag-com, and a hammer can be your best friends with many ALH "won't start" issues.
There's one of each in the trunk of my '01 Jetta at all times.
Unfortunately my KII-USB vag-com cable doesn't speak CAN-BUS which started in 2003 so it couldn't help for your situation.
Geesum...

Ok. I bought the car with bad turbo. I cranked the car with bad turbo. I ran the car for a few minutes with the bad turbo. I didnt realize how bad the turbo was and running it the few minutes i did put oil in the cylinders with the bad turbo. I removed glow plugs. Cranked it over, pushed oil out. Put glow plugs back, spun free, towed it home.

Key things: It cranked, it ran, it idled, it idled fine. It revved up. No issues. Only issue was the turbo being bad.

The injector pump was changed....long before the turbo went bad. The injector pump was changed before I got the car. So the injection pump was working fine.

I deleted the EGR because this car already had tremendous carbon and oil buildup in the intake. I wanted to make sure nothing about the carbon build up prevented the car from starting. Removed it all, cleaned everything, and put what i needed to back (EGR delete).

So I didnt change the injection pump with the turbo. I only changed the turbo and feed line. Nothing was taking apart on the injection pump. Nothing was re-timed, timed wrong, etc.

The only thing that was removed after the cars turbo failing (I wouldnt say catastrophic because it still spooled, just oil bypassed it) was the turbo (twice actually) it self, and the intake manifold for cleaning as well as the egr and then all new gaskets etc.

And to note about the oil pressure light. It has come on since I have tried cranking it so much without success. The car has been cranked but with the assitance of a fuel soaked rag capping the intake tube. (i didnt see this, but it supposedly idled bad according to the mechanic) I havent cranked it myself.

This is now where I am..

But I will try cracking a few nuts loose on the injectors to see if I get a fuel mess when I turn it over.
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Alright so I tried the "crack open fuel injector lines to see if you have fuel".

Video 1: First round of cranking. I only did it for like 3 seconds.


Vide0 2: Decided a few seconds wasnt enough. Did it a few times.


Drained the fuel filter a little bit...apparently there is fuel in it.


Fuel line empty after draining the filter a little. There is just a little left, if you can see it, in the line towards the injection pump. I turned the engine over a few times and I guess it sucked the fuel in because then it was completely empty but It stayed empty as well. After I drained the filter (the little bit i did)
I cranked and cranked and cranked and cranked and fuel did not retuin into the fuel line.

 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Eric,
Seems as you have a fuel delivery problem. The fuel filter should always be completely full of fuel. Perhaps try to pull fuel w/MitiVac from filter outlet to check that the fuel is coming thru the sender-pick-up unit and/or lines. (rules out a clog or an air leak) If you can pull it up w/MitiVac then the IP is not sucking it to itself so it can be injected. Rule out a bad pick-up unit, air leaks at filter/connections, cracked fuel lines etc. If they all check out the IP perhaps is suspect (again).
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Eric,
Seems as you have a fuel delivery problem. The fuel filter should always be completely full of fuel. Perhaps try to pull fuel w/MitiVac from filter outlet to check that the fuel is coming thru the sender-pick-up unit and/or lines. (rules out a clog or an air leak) If you can pull it up w/MitiVac then the IP is not sucking it to itself so it can be injected. Rule out a bad pick-up unit, air leaks at filter/connections, cracked fuel lines etc. If they all check out the IP perhaps is suspect (again).

I bought a mitivac today. Following the guidelines here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1972368&postcount=6
...basically how to prime the fuel filter.

I pulled a vaccum from the side of the filter that would be pulling fuel from the tank, into the filter, and then pushing it into the injection pump. I had good flow, with occasional small tiny air bubbles here and there. But other than that it flowed good and didnt take much pressure. I then even went to as far as pull the feed line to the injection pump and pull a vaccum from there to get the fuel through that line as well. Hooked it all back up. Still no fire. Just crank. So for safe measure I pulled a vaccum again at the filter to make sure I had fuel in the line. It pulled good. Solid stream (with tiny air bubbles here and there). Hooked it all back up and got the same result.

I tried and tried and tried. I let it turn over for 6-10 seconds at times. I looked at the clear fuel line and it seems as if it was not pulling the fuel through it that well because even after priming and trying to crank it, that line was not full of fuel.

How does an injector pump just go bad? The car ran fine when I was testing it (with the bad turbo). It ran fine all the way up to the point that it started to get oil in the cylinders. I shut it down, pull plugs, turned it over, pumped oil out, put it back together, towed it home, replaced turbo, and here I am now.
 

zukikat

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Location
Greater New Orleans area
TDI
2001 Jetta GLS, 2003 Jetta GLS Wagon
Injection pump seals can dry out in a few days and cause prime loss.

Ith rubber return hoses from the injectors.back to the pump can crack or Get loose and cause a loss of prime, and a number of things...
Leaving a ALH sitting a few days can take you from run ing fine to no start if parts are getting tired.
BUT if you can get enough fuel back into the pump the car will start again.

Pull the little rubber hose from injector 4 off the pump, connect the Mity-Vac there, and see if you. An get a good stream of fuel into and through the pump or not.
If you can get the pump re-primed then you ought to be able to get the car to start.

My current car's pump seals were so far gone it wouldn't prime with the Mity-Vac and we still were able to get running eve thallus.

I drive past Diamondhead 2-3 times a week normally and could stop to take a look but right now I have an eye injury and can't see to drive. I can barely see to type this so pardon a y typo's.

Let us know if you can prime the pump through the return hose port or not and we'll go from there.
ALH fuel delivery issues.can be stressful but they can be overcome
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Injection pump seals can dry out in a few days and cause prime loss.

Ith rubber return hoses from the injectors.back to the pump can crack or Get loose and cause a loss of prime, and a number of things...
Leaving a ALH sitting a few days can take you from run ing fine to no start if parts are getting tired.
BUT if you can get enough fuel back into the pump the car will start again.

Pull the little rubber hose from injector 4 off the pump, connect the Mity-Vac there, and see if you. An get a good stream of fuel into and through the pump or not.
If you can get the pump re-primed then you ought to be able to get the car to start.

My current car's pump seals were so far gone it wouldn't prime with the Mity-Vac and we still were able to get running eve thallus.

I drive past Diamondhead 2-3 times a week normally and could stop to take a look but right now I have an eye injury and can't see to drive. I can barely see to type this so pardon a y typo's.

Let us know if you can prime the pump through the return hose port or not and we'll go from there.
ALH fuel delivery issues.can be stressful but they can be overcome
So I should remove the rubber return line from the IP to the filter housing and try to pull vaccum you from there you say? Or should I remove the metal line off the driver side of the IP and pull vaccum from there? And you said try removing injector line #4 from the IP and pull a vaccum from the injector side?

You told me to try a few locations and I just want to clarify before I start trying to pull vaccums from wrong locations.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
So I should remove the rubber return line from the IP to the filter housing and try to pull vaccum you from there you say? Or should I remove the metal line off the driver side of the IP and pull vaccum from there? And you said try removing injector line #4 from the IP and pull a vaccum from the injector side?

You told me to try a few locations and I just want to clarify before I start trying to pull vaccums from wrong locations.
I think he meant for you to try to pull fuel thru the IP from the #4 injector return line.
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
I think he meant for you to try to pull fuel thru the IP from the #4 injector return line.
Which one is the #4 injector?

Also I tried pulling a vaccum from the return side of the injector pump just now and all it does it pull and pull all the way to 20+, it wont pull fuel through it that way.
 

MikeS_18

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Bow, NH
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, '13 Passat SE, '64 Ford Econoline
You could completely rule out any issues from the fuel filter back to the tank by bottle feeding it. We all run diesel purge through the engine once every couple years and use this process: http://www.tdiblog.com/tdi-do-it-yourself/tdi-fuel-injection-cleaning-diesel-purge/

This would ensure that you don't have an issue with filter, lines to tank, sender unit in tank, broken fuel gauge (ie there is no fuel in the tank - hey it happened to me)

I like to mityvac on the line that goes from the Injection Pump to the injectors. that way I KNOW I have a primed injection pump.



Its the "cloth" wrapped rubber hose that in this picture is between the braided line and the steel injector lines. Runs from IP to side of injector #4.
 
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ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
You could completely rule out any issues from the fuel filter back to the tank by bottle feeding it. We all run diesel purge through the engine once every couple years and use this process: http://www.tdiblog.com/tdi-do-it-yourself/tdi-fuel-injection-cleaning-diesel-purge/

This would ensure that you don't have an issue with filter, lines to tank, sender unit in tank, broken fuel gauge (ie there is no fuel in the tank - hey it happened to me)

I like to mityvac on the line that goes from the Injection Pump to the injectors. that way I KNOW I have a primed injection pump.
So what you are saying is that if I take the cup that i have been catching my diesel with right now, and hook the lines up (as pictured in your link, and trying cranking it that way that I could rule out a few things.

Also I just hooked the mityvac up to the rubber line (wrapped in the material) from the injection pump to the fatherst driver side injector and pulled it from the end of that rubber line, through injector pump.

What happend? Well it pulled vaccum, and then it held vaccum... i could see the fuel being pulled into the pump, but as soon as i release or pulled the line loose, it was like a suction occurred and then it just pulled all the air back into the injector pump and put the air bubble right back into the clear line.
 

MikeS_18

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Bow, NH
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, '13 Passat SE, '64 Ford Econoline
So what you are saying is that if I take the cup that i have been catching my diesel with right now, and hook the lines up (as pictured in your link, and trying cranking it that way that I could rule out a few things.
Yes, but you have to make sure that you have a good seal on the hoses and the hoses completely submerged in fuel. It will love to suck air instead and that won't be helpful. You positive you have good fuel? And it's diesel? I chased my tail on this issue for 3 hours and had stupidly hooked the fuel lines up on the tank under the back seat incorrectly - so you have to get real basic.

Also I just hooked the mityvac up to the rubber line (wrapped in the material) from the injection pump to the fatherst driver side injector and pulled it from the end of that rubber line, through injector pump.

What happend? Well it pulled vaccum, and then it held vaccum... i could see the fuel being pulled into the pump, but as soon as i release or pulled the line loose, it was like a suction occurred and then it just pulled all the air back into the injector pump and put the air bubble right back into the clear line.
this is above my experience level. I don't think the pump sucked the fuel back in - weird, shouldn't it be pulling from the other side, ie fuel filter? One of the more experienced mechanics needs to weigh in on that question.
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Yes, but you have to make sure that you have a good seal on the hoses and the hoses completely submerged in fuel. It will love to suck air instead and that won't be helpful. You positive you have good fuel? And it's diesel? I chased my tail on this issue for 3 hours and had stupidly hooked the fuel lines up on the tank under the back seat incorrectly - so you have to get real basic.



this is above my experience level. I don't think the pump sucked the fuel back in - weird, shouldn't it be pulling from the other side, ie fuel filter? One of the more experienced mechanics needs to weigh in on that question.
I just tried this (with the mityvac lines and my big cup of diesel fuel). It did not fire. I could see it wanting to pull the fuel in, but it was not a consistent stream, a little hear, and a bubble pocket, a little there and a bubble pocket. Didnt pick up a solid flow. And then when I would stop turning it over I could actually see the fuel flowing the opposite way back towards the cup away from the IP in the feed line. Thats not to say the mityvac lines may not be the best choice for this experiment.
 

MikeS_18

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Bow, NH
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, '13 Passat SE, '64 Ford Econoline
okay, so it seems like the IP is not allowing fuel to flow through it. Again, now you're past my pay grade. Does the IP have power to it?
 

zukikat

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Location
Greater New Orleans area
TDI
2001 Jetta GLS, 2003 Jetta GLS Wagon
The fact that you got vacuum and slowly pulled fuel through the pump with that hose connected from that nipple on the pump to the Mity-Vac and I think you said it held the vacuum, then that seems normal to me and a good sign.

If you can fill the Mity-Vac cup with fuel through that ilittle rubber injector return hose id say that your pump seals are fine. If you leave the Mity-Vac connected to that line with it still slowly sucking fuel/vacuum and try to start the car and hold the key until the oil warning light and buzzer happen, does it cough and sputter at all or still just plain cranking?
 

ericgray1

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Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
The fact that you got vacuum and slowly pulled fuel through the pump with that hose connected from that nipple on the pump to the Mity-Vac and I think you said it held the vacuum, then that seems normal to me and a good sign.

If you can fill the Mity-Vac cup with fuel through that ilittle rubber injector return hose id say that your pump seals are fine. If you leave the Mity-Vac connected to that line with it still slowly sucking fuel/vacuum and try to start the car and hold the key until the oil warning light and buzzer happen, does it cough and sputter at all or still just plain cranking?
Havent tried that. But wont the mityvac be sucking the wrong direction if i try to pull a vaccum on the return injector line, while trying to crank it?
 

zukikat

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Jan 7, 2012
Location
Greater New Orleans area
TDI
2001 Jetta GLS, 2003 Jetta GLS Wagon
There's so much pressure once the pump catches that the Mity-Vac won't be a factor if the pump is working.

Check your PM's please . :)
 

ericgray1

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Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Bottle Feeding my no start engine.

So one of the members gave me an idea of bottle feeding the engine...



Cup of diesel:


Hooked up to the feed and return lines:


Videos of how the injector pump was pulling the diesel:

In the video notice if you can how its almost like it can pull the diesel over the "hump"..


Video 2:
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Eric, it looks like both lines are full of air. The pump cannot pull or pump air. Try again with a jug above the pump and the hose coming out the bottom to feed the pump. Once you have that set-up, lower the return line to below the pump and let the fuel gravity bleed through the pump. Once you have fuel coming out the return line - and only then - should you put the return line in the jug and try bleeding the injection lines before starting.

You may have a bad pump, but so far I haven't seen anything telling me that you have the air bled out of the fuel system.
 

CoyoteStarfish

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Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
Miami, FL
TDI
01 Beetle
With your current setup, put the vac on the discharge from the IP, and pull fuel from the cup through the IP and out through the discharge hose. Make sure you're not getting any bubbles on the discharge line. Then put the discharge back into the cup and give it a shot.

If bubbles start coming out of the IP when cranking after you're sure you've purged all air out of the IP with the vac, then your IP or injectors may be at fault.

I had a case once (not on an ALH) where an injector had failed internally (spring broke in 3 places) and cranking the engine would force air through the injector tip, through the injection line and into the pump - and purge the IP and fuel filter of fuel. No matter how many times I would draw more fuel into the filter and IP it would run for a few seconds and then stall. Took me a week to figure out what was wrong with it, after replacing the entire fuel system from the IP back -- assuming it was sucking in air somewhere else.
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
With your current setup, put the vac on the discharge from the IP, and pull fuel from the cup through the IP and out through the discharge hose. Make sure you're not getting any bubbles on the discharge line. Then put the discharge back into the cup and give it a shot.
If bubbles start coming out of the IP when cranking after you're sure you've purged all air out of the IP with the vac, then your IP or injectors may be at fault.
I had a case once (not on an ALH) where an injector had failed internally (spring broke in 3 places) and cranking the engine would force air through the injector tip, through the injection line and into the pump - and purge the IP and fuel filter of fuel. No matter how many times I would draw more fuel into the filter and IP it would run for a few seconds and then stall. Took me a week to figure out what was wrong with it, after replacing the entire fuel system from the IP back -- assuming it was sucking in air somewhere else.
I've tried this method of priming. The issue is that supposedly the IP seals are good.. Because when i pull a vacuum from the discharge side of the IP all I get is vacuum. The mityvac will pull all the way to the 25+ (i stop at 20-25 to not do any damage) indicator and hold and only pull very little diesel through the IP. It actually never pulls a good stream through with this method because it his a "brick wall" and gets nothing but vacuum. I squeeze the bleed button and then it just sucks all the air right back into the pump. Even if I just remove the mityvac from the return line while under vacuum it just sucks it all back in the return line.
 

MikeS_18

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Bow, NH
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, '13 Passat SE, '64 Ford Econoline
Take a picture of your complete setup with the mityvac with it connected to the IP. take a little video of what you're talking about. Let's make sure we're all talking about the same thing.
 

ericgray1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Location
Diamondhead, MS
TDI
2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Take a picture of your complete setup with the mityvac with it connected to the IP. take a little video of what you're talking about. Let's make sure we're all talking about the same thing.
Ok. I have pulled the return line from IP to filter, basically disconnecting filter from return line, insert mityvac, pull vacuum, and this is when it just builds vacuum, up to 25 on the gauge, and holds it, while ever so little, I'm talking drops at a time, might pull diesel through the IP, and i can see it slowly try to pull the air bubble through but it eventually just stops all together and holds vacuum. I can press release button on mityvac and the IP actually will suck back in and you can watch the air bubble move in the opposite direction, filling the negative void I created by pulling a vac it seems. I can also do this from the injector return line and I get the same result.
 
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