2003 Jetta died, bad injector?

[Tdimrtwo]

I have a 2003 Jetta ALH that died last week while my daughter was driving it. I had installed a new crate engine about six years ago with automatic IP and new filli Bozio mild injectors. Ran great for several years, but lately had been getting harder to start, and then emitting a cloud of black smoke until it got running. Finally started running rough, then died on the highway. Symptoms make me think leaking injector, but is there an easy way to confirm this?

 

[csstevej]

Highly doubt that.

Have you scanned to see if any codes are there?

what’s the condition of the timing belt?

Sounds to me as if the timing has shifted , have you checked to see if the bolts on the IP are tight and the cog hasn’t moved independently from the mounting flange ( bolts all the way over to one side) ?

Have you checked to see if static timing has changed ?
If yes then did you check to see if dynamic timing is off?

Doesn’t take much to mess up the car running if the IP bolts come loose. If you’ve ever done a tb and are using VCDS, if you feel it move when adjusting the IP….. you went too far.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I have a 2003 Jetta ALH that died last week while my daughter was driving it. I had installed a new crate engine about six years ago with automatic IP and new filli Bozio mild injectors. Ran great for several years, but lately had been getting harder to start, and then emitting a cloud of black smoke until it got running. Finally started running rough, then died on the highway. Symptoms make me think leaking injector, but is there an easy way to confirm this?

A leaking injector on one of these won't cause it to not run, since it's not a common rail car.

 

[fatmobile]

And I think a leaky injector makes white smoke instead of black.

 

[Genesis]

It does.

First thing you ALWAYS check in a situation like this is the timing belt system integrity -- remove top cover, look CAREFULLY with inspection mirror and light for evidence of stripped teeth on the belt or anything else out-of-order.

While at it look at where the slots are on the IP; if they're slammed to the corner they likely slipped and yes that's enough to screw you. That's easy to fix and not a catastrophic failure (stripped teeth on the belt or other things out-of-order under there ARE.)

If in doubt then you need to check static timing (cam/IP/crank) to be SURE you're good there.

Assuming you are, a total failure like this is either fuel (you're not getting any for some reason) or the IP is very likely borked.

That it died "slow, then all at once" leads me to believe the odds are good that the IP timing slipped sequentially (easy fix) or the pump has deteriorated and finally failed entirely. Note that a progressive air leak on the suction side of the pump will do this and is easy and cheap to fix once you find it; it begins with hard starting but eventually, if large enough, will prevent the car from running at all.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Thanks for all the replies. I took off the timing cover on the side of the highway for a quick check, and it looked OK, but I’ll get a mirror and check IP bolts tomorrow. Changed timing belt a couple of years ago, so I know it’s not over
100k. I was thinking bad injector because I had one a few years ago with similar symptoms that ended up breaking my crankshaft. I’ve been gun shy ever since. Hopefully that was a once in a lifetime occurrence.

 

[super1]

Thanks for all the replies. I took off the timing cover on the side of the highway for a quick check, and it looked OK, but I’ll get a mirror and check IP bolts tomorrow. Changed timing belt a couple of years ago, so I know it’s not over
100k. I was thinking bad injector because I had one a few years ago with similar symptoms that ended up breaking my crankshaft. I’ve been gun shy ever since. Hopefully that was a once in a lifetime occurrence.

Did you actually see if the TB rotated while you tried to start motor? Sometimes just by looking isn't a good way to tell

 

[Tdimrtwo]

No, I was in a hurry to get the car winched up on the tow dolly without being hit since it was on the shoulder of I-20 during typical Dallas heavy rush hour traffic.
Also, a broken timing belt doesn’t quite match the symptoms of poor starting, rough running then finally shutting down while driving at highway speeds. In my limited experience, a broken timing belts most often occurs without warning, while pulling up to a stop, and immobilizes a formerly perfectly running car. In any case, I’ll know shortly, I’m home now and will look at it more closely today.

 

[BobnOH]

Group 013, injector balance might give a clue. Could be some of the big air pipes are loose. Check from underneath.

 

[braddies]

When's the last time you looked in the intake/egr? Could be gunked up restricting airflow..

 

[P2B]

Could be some of the big air pipes are loose.

You could remove them all and it wouldn't cause any of the symptoms reported.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

timing belt appears to be turning camshaft and injector pump correctly. Pulley bolts appear to be tight, don’t appear to be at end of travel. I’ll squirt a little bit of starting fluid into the intake to see if it’s a lack of fuel issue. Maybe it’s just sucking air.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

forgot to mention, three codes present, none that I think would prevent running.
P11800
P12800
P40100

 

[turbodieseldyke]

forgot to mention, three codes present, none that I think would prevent running.
P11800
P12800
P40100

Your scanner gave you the wrong codes. The real codes would be P0118 (ECT Sensor), P0128 (Thermostat), P0401 (EGR flow).

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Ok, Runs for 3 sec on a 3 sec shot of starting fluid. I think that rules out timing belt issues. So I’ve got a fueling issue. Probably either a leaking fuel line or bad IP. I’ve never had a bad IP, but every ALH I’ve ever owned has had a leaking fuel line at one point or another, so I think I’ll start there. It’s been a few years since I hunted a leaking fuel line, what are the best tips, common failures, places to start? Can anyone point me to a good write-up on it?

 

[super1]

Ok, Runs for 3 sec on a 3 sec shot of starting fluid. I think that rules out timing belt issues. So I’ve got a fueling issue. Probably either a leaking fuel line or bad IP. I’ve never had a bad IP, but every ALH I’ve ever owned has had a leaking fuel line at one point or another, so I think I’ll start there. It’s been a few years since I hunted a leaking fuel line, what are the best tips, common failures, places to start? Can anyone point me to a good write-up on it?

Check the injector return hoses *small little hoses in between injectors & the long one that goes the pump, these pumps have been known to suck air & sometimes don't leak external

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Thanks, I’ll look at them tomorrow.

 

[P2B]

Check the injector return hoses *small little hoses in between injectors & the long one that goes the pump

Leaking return lines will make a mess of spilled diesel, but they won't affect engine operation.

 

[fatmobile]

Might be a fuel line restriction.
A vacuum gauge on the fuel line will let you know how hard the pump is pulling.

 

[super1]

Leaking return lines will make a mess of spilled diesel, but they won't affect engine operation.

Yes but now he says he can't start it without starting fluid (I know) then dies after a few seconds

 

[Genesis]

If you get air into the return before the "T" and it is open (recirculating), and its a bad enough leak, it will kill the engine as air will get right back into the inlet side.

 

[tgray]

Micro cracks in the suction line path can be difficult to find. One way I have used is to connect a small bottle to the pump feed inlet with clean diesel and purge out the injector lines by loosening the injector line nuts one at a time. If the car fires up with starting fluid then the problem is not the engine. I have seen hoses that look fine but somehow leak in air. These cars will not fire when the lines have air in them. Also starting fluid in these engines is never a good thing to use. If it is used in an emergency then disable the glow plugs.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Thanks for all the comments.

New info: Last night, I pulled the return line off the IP and hooked up a mity vac to the ip. I drew a vacuum and sucked diesel all the way through the pump, along with a good amount of air bubbles. (This is how I’ve primed the system in the past).

Here’s the potential air leak problem spots that I know about:
1. Thermo siphon t-valve on the filter, might need new o-rings
2. Fuel line connectors near the firewall. Anyone know how to get them off?
3. Leaking seal on the IP. I don’t have a diesel leak on the IP, so I don’t think it’s likely, but please correct me if I’m mistaken.

If I get a new fuel filter, will it come with new o rings for the thermo-siphon t-thing?

Is there also a potential problem area at the fuel tank pickup?

I’m ordering new fuel filter today, I want to cross that off the list.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Btw, I used starting fluid as a diagnostic tool only, never on a daily basis. I spray it in upstream of the air cutoff valve, so it mostly doesn’t get introduced to the cylinders until after the glow plugs have completed their cycle, and the engine is turning over. I’ve used it on at least 5 tdi’s with no damage that I can see. In my mind, at least it pretty much eliminated the possibility of timing belt issues. My car doesn’t run now, so I can either leave it a lawn ornament, or take steps to diagnose the problem. I understand and accept the risk, but I need to fix the car. WIt’s a 2003 wagon, insurance has already totally it twice, and I got enough money to replace the body parts, but not enough to paint it, so it’s gold, primer black, and dark blue. Its value to me is basic backup transportation and some sentimental value, since I taught all my kids to drive manual in it, but it can be replaced if it can’t be fixed.

 

[P2B]

New info: Last night, I pulled the return line off the IP and hooked up a mity vac to the ip. I drew a vacuum and sucked diesel all the way through the pump, along with a good amount of air bubbles. (This is how I’ve primed the system in the past).

So you drew a vacuum on the IP return until you got clear fuel flowing and it still won't start? Did you crack the injector nuts to purge air from the hard lines?

You might try gravity feeding the pump using a jug hanging from the hood to narrow down the source of the air leak. It is entirely possible the IP is sucking air through a seal but not leaking diesel out.

 

[super1]

Thanks for all the comments.

New info: Last night, I pulled the return line off the IP and hooked up a mity vac to the ip. I drew a vacuum and sucked diesel all the way through the pump, along with a good amount of air bubbles. (This is how I’ve primed the system in the past).

Here’s the potential air leak problem spots that I know about:
1. Thermo siphon t-valve on the filter, might need new o-rings
2. Fuel line connectors near the firewall. Anyone know how to get them off?
3. Leaking seal on the IP. I don’t have a diesel leak on the IP, so I don’t think it’s likely, but please correct me if I’m mistaken.

If I get a new fuel filter, will it come with new o rings for the thermo-siphon t-thing?

Is there also a potential problem area at the fuel tank pickup?

I’m ordering new fuel filter today, I want to cross that off the list.

Yes fuel filter should come with new o-rings
Yes pump can suck air without leaking externally as I stated in a prior post
Sometimes the thermo are cracked so wouldn’t hurt to change that

 

[BobnOH]

, Runs for 3 sec on a 3 sec shot of starting fluid. I think that rules out timing belt issues

I disagree. Worth checking the car is still in time.

 

[tgray]

Starting fluid can even make an out of time engine start. Sometimes I have used a little wd40 to start these cars to help figure things out. It is less volatile. I started an old 1.6 td that was 180 degrees off time with wd40 and it even ran (but horrible) on diesel injecting at the bottom of the cylinder. Usually starting fluid damage I have seen will be things like cracked rings or like a ford 7.3 I have that blew some teeth out of the ring gear from someone using it to start it. However, a quick little puff of the starting fluid probably will not do bad damage.
If it is squirting a strong blast of diesel out of each cracked injector line when cranking, it will start if it is in time and has compression. Getting the air out of these pumps is usually more than just purging the pump - any significant amount of air in the high pressure injector line will not allow the injector to reach its popping pressure point.
One other way I have used to deal with diagnosing air leaks is to hook up an electric fuel pump with a hose in a bucket. That way there is positive pressure into the pump. But even with that the high pressure lines still need to be cracked open. All it takes is a tiny bubble in each line for a no start condition and running it on starting fluid will not push it through.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Sorry, should have been clearer. Still sucking air, steady stream of bubbles with mity vac.
my thoughts:
1. Runs on starting fluid, so camshaft timing is likely ok. Ip timing could be off but
2. Steady stream of bubbles is probably more immediate concern.
I’ve seen hard first start of the day from pump losing prime, but this is first time I’ve had one completely stop while driving down the road. Must be a big air leak.

 

[Tdimrtwo]

Thanks for all the good information. I installed the tb myself maybe 3 years ago, so my ego says it certainly can’t be a timing problem. But, even if it is out of time, I think I need to fix or bypass the air leaks to have any chance of starting. Just bought an Autozone Chinese fuel filter, and I’ll replace t-pipe o-rings and see if that clears up the air leaks. Brings me back to original question, what else can I check for air leaks? Fuel hose connection at firewall? Hoses do look pretty old and cracked. Can I buy replacement hoses? How do you remove the firewall hose connections?