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2002 VW beetle GLS TDI cranks but won't start or dies 1 second later

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
NOOB here! I recently bought a 2002 VW beetle GLS TDI with 253,000 miles that I knew needed some love. You would have to give it a lot of gas to keep it from dying when you were starting from a stop when I test drove it and was lacking power (wouldn't go fast). That said to me it needed a fuel filter and possibly a pump (sorry, new to diesel engines). I replaced the filter then the pump/sending unit under the back seat because it was not making a sound or vibration with the key turned. It is still not starting or staying cranked for more than 2 seconds and will only do that the first or second crank then won't fire up. When I bought it I drove it the 1+ hour home, but it was limping (gas pedal floored it didn't want to go over 60), then hasn't fired up to be able to drive it since.

I also replaced the 109 relay, MAF sensor (because of a code) and Air filter. The only thing I can find on the forum is to clean the intake manifold and EGR valve. I would think it would be running rough if that's the case. Still planning on doing that anyway, just not now if I can help it. the codes my OBD2 scanner is giving me are
P0101 mass or volume Air flow sensor a circuit range/performance
P0321 ignition/distributor engine speed input circuit range/performance
p1556 Charge pressure contr. Negative deviation
P0401 EGR A flow insufficient Detected (Why I replaced it, but still there- though I didn't clear codes...)

I got a vacuum pump and made sure the filter and IP were primed. It seemed like the filter was but the IP was not. I got it to fire up for about 5 seconds before it cut out again. It would fire again after that and cut out after 1-2 seconds. Trying to rev it to keep it cranked would rev for about 1/2 a second then acted like I took my foot off the pedal. I'm going to try to clean the EGR valve today. I'll do the intake manifold when my gasket set comes in. If that's not it I'm thinking injectors?
Anyone else want to chime in?? Please?

Update: I cracked the fuel injector nuts and am only getting the 8-10" spray on injectors 2 and 4 when attempting to crank. 1 and 3 just have a drop or two that sits on top of the nut. I'm thinking the next step is to pull 1 and 3 and clean or replace them.

We are moving to another house in town and need to get this driving so I can move it from the old house in about 4 days. Any help is MUCH appreciated!
 
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Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
CoolAirVw refers to another video he did to prime the filter.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks! That's the one I followed to prime IP and check injectors. I'm in the process of pulling the injectors to clean them. With 2 not firing properly I think that may be my problem. I'll update after I get it done and reinstalled.
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
Cleaned the injectors, made sure there was a good spray with all 5 holes clear, put them back in, primed IP and still won't fire up.
 

STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
Couple things, you'll need to use VCDS to clear the codes, and the fuel sender in the tank has no pump in it.
The rotary pump on top of the engine does all the pulling/sending.
When you have the EGR off, how clogged does the intake manifold look?
Another question, is your anti shudder valve (back side of EGR valve) functioning or is it stuck and gummed up?
There is also the possibility that the crank position sensor is shot or the wires going into it are damaged.
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16705/P0321/000801
Have you read these pages and run through all the "Possible Solutions"?
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16485/P0101/000257
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17964/P1556/005462
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16785/P0401/001025
I think you're getting close!
 
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Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
Took the EGR off tonight. It was FULL of diesel boogers ? Cleaned that and the (turbo?) Pipe connected to the bottom of it out. Where that pipe connects it was completely closed with the crud. I scraped out some of it and hit the "honeycomb" grid just inside of the pipe. I assume this connects to the turbo? Does cleaning out the turbo with oven cleaner while attached work? Will it loosen all of that up and hopefully clear it out? I put it all back together already. We'll have to tow it to the new place until I have time to get it done (moving tomorrow).

I definitely need to replace vacuum hoses, clean out the intake manifold and the turbo. I'll get a pair of sharp snips tomorrow to cut the 1 time use clamps off the nipples (egr and turbo actuator i believe) so I can replace tubing.

Will the turbo tube being completely closed prevent the car from starting, or just not have any boost?
 

STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
Slow down mang. First, you don't want loose crud inside the intake manifold. If you scraped stuff,
there's 1,000x more deeper inside the IM. None of that should come loose enough to go into the head.
That would be baaad, m'kay?
I scraped out some of it and hit the "honeycomb" grid just inside of the pipe.
OK, the only honeycomb thing inside a pipe that I can think of is the MAF housing just to the side of the air filter box.
There should never be crud there. Ever. Maybe dust? Never scrapeable crud though.
How does your air filter look -- BTW - don't check it by taking the halves apart. That will kill the filter's seal,
and you'll need a new filter (probably do anyway lol). Pull the box out and peer into it from the intake side.
My advice at this point is do a lot more reading and stop making assumptions about things.
You can easily destroy these engines through seemingly simple mistakes, or lack of knowledge of tiny details.
vacuum hoses, clean out the intake manifold and the turbo.
Each of those things has a lot to it, tips and tricks, and gotchas. Do your research before you dive in whole hog.
 
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Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
I replaced the air filter already.
The metal (copper looking) honeycomb was at the other end after where the pipe that connects to the bottom of the EGR is connected to at the other end. Is that a turbo pipe? It is completely closed up with boogers behind that honeycomb metal part. Wish I had taken a picture. Sounds like that isn't standard. Maybe why it is blocked so bad?
The car will be towed to the new place before I can get to the intake manifold and vacuum hoses. I DO know to work on one thing at a time because things tend to break (Murphy's law ?) and I tend to research things to death before doing them. Thanks for the advise and help!
 

STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
Oh! OK I think I know where you are now. Your honeycomb must be the EGR cooler innards.
Yep, I call it a dunsel. But it's a mandated part of our emissions systems...:whistle:
Exhaust runs through it to help the coolant temp rise quicker. Then it clogs up and sits there flowing ...coolant.
(No, the EGR cooler being clogged would not contribute to a no-start condition)
Do like I did and soak it in a 5 gallon bucket of mild degreaser for a week, then use about 500 gallons of water to rinse all the
crap out (some people use a stiff wire or equiv) then mount it on your garage wall.
At this point I'd like to add, that at this age, your '02 is kinda like the EGR cooler. If and when you have time,
you should get under it, go over e very inch, bang on stuff*,.. I understand wanting to get it running ASAP, but
even just making sure all the charge air tubing, vacuum lines etc are tight, saves you time down the road.
Intake manifold cleaning idea. I use a degreaser soak after scraping out for the IM as well.
Bonus content: https://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/Intake_Manifold_Cleaning.pdf
Almost forgot:
Being in Montana, you should invest in a FrostHeater, and think about a skid plate.
*Don't bang on the oil pan!
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
1 more item, when you said
Cleaned the injectors
how exactly did you go about that?
I removed them all. Took the tubing off. Cleaned tubing with carb and break cleaner with a straw (they should probably be replaced).
Soaked each injector in purple power cleaner/degreaser then scrubbed the outsides with a stiff toothbrush.
Put each injector in turn in my vice clamp and unscrewed the cap.
Took out the nozzle sections making sure to know how to put it all back together. Sprayed all with carb and break cleaner and scrubbed all the black carbon remaining off.
Sprayed the xarb and break cleaner through each nozzle making sure it came out of all 5 holes.
Let dry then put back together, then put back into the engine like i took them out.

Thinking about how the break cleaner effects my gloves, I'm thinking I HAVE to replace the tubing for the injectors...

When banging around on stuff underneath, am I just making sure nothing is rusted or loose? And are you saying I don't need the EGR cooler part?
It already has a skid plate an a plug that i assumed is the block heater-pretty common and essential on diesels up here in the frozen north ?
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
I have the parts coming to take off the IM, clean and reassemble it (gaskets, bolts, etc). Hubby is just asking that I wait until we've got everything out of the house and have the closing done before I open the hood again (yes, I like to do the mechanics, he hates it). We still have to tow it to the new place and I have to find where he put all of my tools.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Whoa. Slow down on all that. Get it running, then do all intake manifold cleaning.

Yes, you should always replace the injector return lines if you disconnect them. They will leak attempting to reuse them. Get the injection pump primed and injectors bled. Get the engine running first.

I would recommend you remove the valve cover and make sure you have no bad lifters and the cam looks good. It should not run that rough even with a dirty intake manifold. Something is amiss for it to run that badly, even at idle. Disconnect the MAF as the ECU will use a default profile if it cannot find it.
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
It ran sluggish when I brought it home (when purchased a couple of weeks ago) and would stall at a stop, but I haven't gotten it to start to drive since that. It had been sitting since last Nov. When I bought it. I'm trying to get it running. I do prime the IP before I try to start it. It will crank, but not fire at all without, but if it will fire, it cuts back out quickly and It won't rev at all like its not getting fuel when i step on the pedal. It won't stay cranked long enough to even try to bleed the injectors. I scraped some bits loose in at the IM when I was checking how clogged it was so I think I really need to get that cleaned before I try to crank it again.
 

STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
You sound like you know what you're doing, but did you test the injectors out of the car (dangerous)?
I'm wondering now if what you're seeing is clogged injectors. Does brake cleaner dissolve baked on glazing?
Did the car ever run veggie oil? I know brake cleaner can't dissolve contaminants like sand or metal shavings.
These injectors are two-stage. IDK but does the fact brake cleaner will dribble out all the holes necessarily mean
the injectors are functioning properly as a whole?
I think I really need to get that cleaned before I try to crank it again.
I wholeheartedly support that sentiment.
Also, examining the lifters and cam as jokila said would be a really good move too.
Another really good idea comes to mind which would cost little time:
See if she'll set at TDC! Transmission peep hole, cyl#1 lobes UP, camshaft lock, injection pump pinned.
That would give you a nice baseline and almost ensure timing is close enough to rule out as an issue.
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
I did not test the injectors out of the car.
I dont think so about the veggie oil, but you never know. When i took the injectors apart, nothing was sticking. All parts came apart easily and the pins did not need encouraging to come out. The cleaner sprayed out. I used this video for reference
If you have a suggestion for a cleaner to do it over again, let me know.
Is there a video you could point me to so I can see about having it set at TDC?
Thanks!
 

STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
No video required;
Remove valve cover find the cyl#1 lobes (closest to pass side)
Carefully inspect cam lobes and lifters...really get a look and feel of the lifter surface,
any tactile wear marks you should think about replacing.
Rotate the engine by hand (19mm socket on crank bolt clockwise)
Pull off the peephole plug (top of trans, close to the block)
line up the flywheel mark, check the #1cyl lobes are up from the plane of the followers in a "V" shape
Insert cam lock (driver side of cam)
pin the pump (through the sprocket straight out from the square boss on the pass side of the pump)
Beware of the sucker hole. If you can lock the IP and the cam, and the flywheel mark is like below,
you're good.

 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
I got all but the last of the 5 Allen bolts off the back of the IM and the last bolt stripped?
We have tried to drill it and get a reverse thread bit into it to pull it out but no luck. Yes, I used seafoam deep creep multiple times before trying this and before it stripped. Any suggestions for getting that out? I am possibly going to need to replace the IM. Hubby first tried to drill it and started on an empty hole instead of the allen bolt by mistake (he's a very handy residential building contractor).Now I've just got to get this one out and assess the damage.
 

STDOUBT

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Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
What you want is some of these type of bolt-outs.
Tap them over the head of the bolts and crank them out.
Might want to pre-treat with some Kroil or other penetrating oil.
A bit of heat to the local area of the manifold could help too.
I doubt they're in that tight though.

 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
Ok I got the last bolt off. Is there anything else I need to remove before I try to get the IM off? It seems to be stuck on there
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
Got it off. The IM definitely has to be replaced because of where/ how it got drilled accidently. It cracked one of the bolt holes so that it can't seal properly or be bolted in that hole. Thoughts on having it rewelded?
 
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STDOUBT

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Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
If you're in no hurry, you could always find a PD150 intake to replace the borked one.
Also - pay special attention the hole on the head that got the drill.
Make sure it's cleaned out, compressed air and maybe a thread runner.
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
If you're in no hurry, you could always find a PD150 intake to replace the borked one.
Also - pay special attention the hole on the head that got the drill.
Make sure it's cleaned out, compressed air and maybe a thread runner.
Thanks for the tip! Whats the difference a PD150 makes? And what do I need to add to make it work? I found one earlier when I was looking, but the tube that attached to the EGR valve is too short
 

STDOUBT

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Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
ALHx2
I think there's a way to retain both with the PD150, and I'm not sure how much benefit you'd get w/o a tune to go with that,
or what other components should be changed to make it shine, it's something you'd have to read about.
Some places sell kits along with a PD150 geared toward whatever end mods you're looking for.
An hour or so searching/reading this site, you'll be an expert!
 

Clawfamily7

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Location
Montana
TDI
2002 vw beetle GLS TDI
Is there anything I need to do to the engine head intake ports (like cleaning them) after I get the IM all cleaned up before I install it back on?
 
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