2 stroke oil in your diesel = smiles?

[peterdaniel]

and there are many very trusted people here who use it and have had their IP's still going strong at over 400K miles... Its cheap, add lubrication and does no harm... unless you are the EPA..

 

[turbobrick240]

Yes emissions, plus it would be admitting their products don't always hold up well to the fuels commonly available. The Spicer report is just as valid when it comes to modern hpfp fuel systems. The test is a simple ball bearing wear scar measurement. The same physics applies to modern systems. I think the key is to use an ashless two stroke oil that won't leave deposits in the injectors.

 

[tikal]

In the USA the quality and characteristics of D2 are mainly geared for the heavy duty engines. Meaning 40 cetane and minimum lubricity, aromatics, etc. We are talking lowest common denominator to make the most profit. Makes sense since light duty diesel engines are such a small fraction of the US vehicles.

Many TDI owners use additives (including two cycle oil) in an attempt to improve the overall properties of D2 and make it similar to the European Union standards.

Here is an interesting paper that cover some of these topics regarding D2 standards in the US vs Europe:

https://www.chevron.com/~/media/chevron/operations/documents/DieselFuelTechReview

 

[sohccammer427]

Excellent article on two stroke oils

I found this to be very informative. Describes in detail two stroke oils.
http://www.sea-doo.net/the-late-great-oil-debate/2015/04/

 

[neoborn]

200:1 - Sorry I am a Mathematically slow person. Can someone give me the explain basic math to work this out. My tank is 55 Ltrs. Thanks guys. Also is this Walmart Super Tech oil sold in Canadia?

 

[turbobrick240]

55 L divided by 200= .275 L or about a quarter liter.

 

[South Coast Guy]

This is still floating around? Adding lubricating oil to your diesel's fuel supply? If this really provided any measurable benefit, why don't all manufacturers of diesel (and this oil) recommend this?

 

[Macradiators.com]

in Europe we use it a lot to increase lubrication of the pump, so far less hpfp failures

 

[tikal]

I have used occasionally two stroke oil (Pennzoil semi-synthetic) in my 2004 Passat (manual transmission). Every time I used it I noticed that there is much diminished hesitation/trepidation in the car when I shift quickly 1-2-3 under acceleration. Why is this?

 

[South Coast Guy]

in Europe we use it a lot to increase lubrication of the pump, so far less hpfp failures

How do you know that is happening? Most americans think pump failure is caused by low-quality diesel.

 

[DPM]

and a main "feature" of poor quality diesel is low lubricity...

 

[VwPassion]

Having a Polo 1.2 TDi '13 , and i am using 2T (DFI marine) in diesel. I also use a non-507 oil with 5w-40 viscosity but low saps (gonna change it to 0w-40 again with low saps ). I have around 46k kilometers and i have dpf of course . I using 2T from 5k kilometers almost from the start i did bought it , and i can say that the car is quitter and smoother .I did stop a few times for 2-3 tanks each time just to confirm the difference . It exists with and without 2T a huge difference . I did measure ash in dpf at 44k kilometers and it did say 8,7 gr from 70 max . So the conclusion for me ,is that the 2T is not hurting dpf . This apply too for the non-507 low saps oils .

 

[tikal]

Thanks for your input. I was wondering if in your location you have access to two grades of diesel fuel for passenger cars. I know for example in Spain there are two grades one, more expensive than the other one and with different cetane levels and probably other characteristics. I am curious if thit is your case and if you have tried to see the difference between the two in terms of performance (without two stroke oil).

Having a Polo 1.2 TDi '13 , and i am using 2T (DFI marine) in diesel. I also use a non-507 oil with 5w-40 viscosity but low saps (gonna change it to 0w-40 again with low saps ). I have around 46k kilometers and i have dpf of course . I using 2T from 5k kilometers almost from the start i did bought it , and i can say that the car is quitter and smoother .I did stop a few times for 2-3 tanks each time just to confirm the difference . It exists with and without 2T a huge difference . I did measure ash in dpf at 44k kilometers and it did say 8,7 gr from 70 max . So the conclusion for me ,is that the 2T is not hurting dpf . This apply too for the non-507 low saps oils .

 

[South Coast Guy]

and a main "feature" of poor quality diesel is low lubricity...

Still looking for some scientific evidence and an explanation why manufacturers of diesel engines don't recommend adding lubricating oil to the fuel supply.

 

[drywaller]

Still looking for some scientific evidence and an explanation why manufacturers of diesel engines don't recommend adding lubricating oil to the fuel supply.

Simple answer. Sensative Emissions systems and liabilities.

 

[turbobrick240]

Still looking for some scientific evidence and an explanation why manufacturers of diesel engines don't recommend adding lubricating oil to the fuel supply.

First, Bosch makes most all of the components of our fuel systems. And Bosch does say to use fuel meeting certain lubricity standards (wear scar test). The diesel fuel minimum lubricity standard in america does not meet Bosch's lubricity standard. The Spicer Report is probably the best illustration of what effect various diesel fuel additives have on lubricity.

 

[VwPassion]

Thanks for your input. I was wondering if in your location you have access to two grades of diesel fuel for passenger cars. I know for example in Spain there are two grades one, more expensive than the other one and with different cetane levels and probably other characteristics. I am curious if thit is your case and if you have tried to see the difference between the two in terms of performance (without two stroke oil).

Yes ,i do have access to two grades and i did tried both without and with 2T . I live in Greece and the lower cetane here is around 50-51 or so and the premium is around 54-55 or so . Its day with night the difference between these two and engine "speak" by itself . But i did notice more economy with lower cetane number ,but a lot worse engine running and idling .Actually a few times at very low rpm i was able to hear engine "knocking". At other hand ,the premium diesel it burns faster but i can say for sure that engine adore it .No weird sounds ,nothing ,all work as it should be. So i did keep using premium in term of longevity instead trying to have 0.2 L/100 Km less with poor cetane quality of fuel .
By the way, i did the emissions update and i like my car more . It have a slightly loss of power at higher rpm , area that i very rare use ,but a great boost at low rpm lower than 2k and even down to idle . As example ,i do keep 4th at almost idle area without hesitate while without the update ,car needed swift down under 1.4k rpm .Before update i was needed to rev up to 2.5-3k for change properly while now i hardly see 2k.Even the gear indicator after the update say to change gear 10 km lower than previous .The regen now did came after 1.200 km instead the usual number of ~900 km ,that s a difference of ~35% gain at dpf actual life .

 

[JetJet]

Okay, I have a friend that uses used oil. However, it is filtered down to 1 micron and then added an acid to get rid of the detergents in the oil. I believe that with 2 stroke oil you have to do the same thing. That is remove the detergents.
The good news is that processed used oil used on his heavy machinery and pick up trucks run quieter, have more horsepower, smoke less and they get longer hours on equipment and better fuel economy on the trucks.

 

[Terrific-In-Tahoma]

Also is this Walmart Super Tech oil sold in Canadia?

In Canada the oil available at a Wal-mart Store is manufactured from different refineries, than in the US. It is called "Tune IT!" branded products. They are only available thru walmart in Canada.

The website for walmart.ca has a product http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/outboard-2-cycle-engine-oil-946ml/6000111967476

... it includes this in the description :

TUNE IT! OUTBOARD 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL is a premium ashless blend, especially designed to meet the latest TC-W3® performance requirements. It is recommended for all oil-injected or pre-mixed outboard engines and other applications specifying TC-W3®, TC-WII or TD-W oils

This oil is also suitable for use in snowmobiles, lawn mowers, chainsaws, and other 2-cycle engines where such an ashless oil is specified by the equipment manufacturer

... but so far , VW, have not published a recommendation on additive to add to the fuel for pre-2007 TDIs other than Standyne.

At $5.77 CAD Retail, (Southern Ontario), B100 is far more economical , when you can find it, (or know how to make your own). Applying the math to the product from standyne, at least you have it pre mixed, and 'approved' for your type of engine.

The specification for TC-W3 https://www.nmma.org/certification/oil/tc-w3 is for "Marine" applications, and as such, it may work, however, and this is the unknown, is what are the long term effects of using it in your On-Road emissions certified, vehicle.

Your-Mileage-Might-Vary.
~Richard

 

[Terrific-In-Tahoma]

Okay, I have a friend that uses used oil.

You are not telling us what used oil your friend is using.

You are not telling us what application your friend is adding the filtered, processed, then modified with an acid, to the fuel.

I believe the Original Poster is trying to replace the lubricity lost by the adoption of the Low-Sulfur fuel requirements of the US and Canada.

F150's and others, have larger injection nozzles, for a larger cylinder volume, (and higher Horsepower / Torque), and conversely a larger fuel requirement per intake stroke.

Older (Small size < 15,000 Kg) trucks do not have the same stringent Environmental restrictions, as automobiles did in the 2004-2007 time frame.

New Engines, both small size, and larger ones, fall under the same requirements, in N. America.

There are hazards to using Used crankcase oils to the fuel, and these are the metals that are <1um in size that get added to the exhaust, when the oil gets burned in the combustion process.

When Used Vegetable Oils are added, then it is a different set of chemistry.

~Richard

 

[Terrific-In-Tahoma]

I have used occasionally two stroke oil (Pennzoil semi-synthetic) in my 2004 Passat (manual transmission). Every time I used it I noticed that there is much diminished hesitation/trepidation in the car when I shift quickly 1-2-3 under acceleration. Why is this?

Adding 200:1 (or 1/4 litre oil to 50 litres fuel), slows the fuel burn time, since the fuel now now has to burn that oil along with the higher parafinic compounds of diesel, this longer time cools out the 'ping', and gives a little 'richer' a/f ratio.

The best way to confirm it is with three or more tank-fuls, as a single tan-ful is not really long enough to verify if the addition of the two stroke oil is sufficent for deminished hesitation.

(Blind Taste test - let significant other fill up the three tank-fuls, and use it in only 2 tank-fuls, and not tell you which tank-ful has the two stroke oil added to the mix)....

[eliminates anticipated bias of anecdotal performance improvement]
~R

 

[JetJet]

Used oil reply.

Good question, I'm not the pro on the motor oil fuel process. I know biodiesel because that's what I make. I did try his fuel and man I like it better than biodiesel. So, here is what I know. He picks up used motor oil or buys the 55 gallon drums from auto shops or oil change stations. He filters the oil by pressurizing the 55g drum, then the oil goes through his filters and treats it after the filtering. I know he will use 5 parts oil to 1 diesel or kerosene for the winter. Nothing in the summer. I ran 10 gallons that he gave me to try out, as soon as the motor oil got to the injectors the engine quieted down and ran smoother. From what I have learned his process is cheaper, but not by much from UVO.

You are not telling us what used oil your friend is using.

You are not telling us what application your friend is adding the filtered, processed, then modified with an acid, to the fuel.

I believe the Original Poster is trying to replace the lubricity lost by the adoption of the Low-Sulfur fuel requirements of the US and Canada.

F150's and others, have larger injection nozzles, for a larger cylinder volume, (and higher Horsepower / Torque), and conversely a larger fuel requirement per intake stroke.

Older (Small size < 15,000 Kg) trucks do not have the same stringent Environmental restrictions, as automobiles did in the 2004-2007 time frame.

New Engines, both small size, and larger ones, fall under the same requirements, in N. America.

There are hazards to using Used crankcase oils to the fuel, and these are the metals that are <1um in size that get added to the exhaust, when the oil gets burned in the combustion process.

When Used Vegetable Oils are added, then it is a different set of chemistry.

~Richard

 

[South Coast Guy]

First, Bosch makes most all of the components of our fuel systems. And Bosch does say to use fuel meeting certain lubricity standards (wear scar test). The diesel fuel minimum lubricity standard in america does not meet Bosch's lubricity standard. The Spicer Report is probably the best illustration of what effect various diesel fuel additives have on lubricity.

AHHHH! Please name a manufacturer of diesel engines that recommends adding lubricating oil to the fuel system.

 

[turbobrick240]

AHHHH! Please name a manufacturer of diesel engines that recommends adding lubricating oil to the fuel system.

I'm not sure what it is about improved fuel lubricity being good for the fuel system that is so hard for you to wrap your mind around. People have been doing this for decades. And around the world. If you deem it unnecessary, then don't do it. Tada!

 

[Ranch]

Why would they (manufacturers) care about 10 yo engines? They are more interested in selling new stuff.

Fuel has changed, the amount of suspended water has increased, and pumps built to run 'normal' full sulphur are now forced to digest this 'crap'.
i've yet to meet a CR owner, enthusiast, guru... that reccomends 2 stroke. This is for the good ol rotary, inline, or in my case cam fired PT Cummins. Not too different than the PD models here. Hell, even Cummins had a system that pulled oil out of the pan, and directly put it in the fuel tank. It was a batch system, and we only needed to hit the valve to refill the oil pan, and change the oil filter a couple times a year. They allowed up to 10% oil in the fuel. It worked out pretty well, most trucks had about 80-100 gallon fuel tanks, and the oil pans were about 8 gallons.
i don't have that system on my old tractor, but i routinely dump in all the waste oil in that. I have a centifuge spinner/filter just for that purpose. Been doing it for more than 30 yrs.. Zero problems.
DO NOT THINK THIS IS A GREEN LIGHT FOR YOUR TDI. (WASTE ENGINE OIL)
My 'modern' stuff, the small cummins, that have either the P pump, or the Vp44, all get 2 stroke, I am thinking about moving over to Opti lube, only for the economics. my 2 stroke regime, is 1 oz per gallon.. basically a quart at every fill. so it's 10 cents per gallon to treat @ wally world prices. Opti lube seems to be closer to about .07, but i'm afraid shipping will negate any savings.
My local pump guy has shown me pumps that were forced to eat todays fuel.. and shown me pumps that were fed 2 stroke for the past 10 years. No contest. The only reason the 2 stroked pump was in the shop, was because the body rotted off the frame, and the new owner wanted it 'checked out'.
Will the typical owner ever be rewarded for routinely adding extra lube?? Probably not. It'll be traded and long forgotten. But the next owner will sure love ya!

 

[turbobrick240]

Why would they (manufacturers) care about 10 yo engines? They are more interested in selling new stuff.

Fuel has changed, the amount of suspended water has increased, and pumps built to run 'normal' full sulphur are now forced to digest this 'crap'.
i've yet to meet a CR owner, enthusiast, guru... that reccomends 2 stroke. This is for the good ol rotary, inline, or in my case cam fired PT Cummins. Not too different than the PD models here. Hell, even Cummins had a system that pulled oil out of the pan, and directly put it in the fuel tank. It was a batch system, and we only needed to hit the valve to refill the oil pan, and change the oil filter a couple times a year. They allowed up to 10% oil in the fuel. It worked out pretty well, most trucks had about 80-100 gallon fuel tanks, and the oil pans were about 8 gallons.
i don't have that system on my old tractor, but i routinely dump in all the waste oil in that. I have a centifuge spinner/filter just for that purpose. Been doing it for more than 30 yrs.. Zero problems.
DO NOT THINK THIS IS A GREEN LIGHT FOR YOUR TDI. (WASTE ENGINE OIL)
My 'modern' stuff, the small cummins, that have either the P pump, or the Vp44, all get 2 stroke, I am thinking about moving over to Opti lube, only for the economics. my 2 stroke regime, is 1 oz per gallon.. basically a quart at every fill. so it's 10 cents per gallon to treat @ wally world prices. Opti lube seems to be closer to about .07, but i'm afraid shipping will negate any savings.
My local pump guy has shown me pumps that were forced to eat todays fuel.. and shown me pumps that were fed 2 stroke for the past 10 years. No contest. The only reason the 2 stroked pump was in the shop, was because the body rotted off the frame, and the new owner wanted it 'checked out'.
Will the typical owner ever be rewarded for routinely adding extra lube?? Probably not. It'll be traded and long forgotten. But the next owner will sure love ya!

Good fuel lubricity is just as important for today's high pressure common rail fuel systems as it was for the older tech. You don't hear too many folks recommending for the common rails due to dpf/catalyst concerns. I can hear the difference in my common rail when I run lubricity supplements.

 

[South Coast Guy]

I'm not sure what it is about improved fuel lubricity being good for the fuel system that is so hard for you to wrap your mind around. People have been doing this for decades. And around the world. If you deem it unnecessary, then don't do it. Tada!

Then why don't diesel manufacturers recommend it? And how do you know that adding lubricating oil to the fuel system provides additional lubricity?

 

[VwPassion]

Then why don't diesel manufacturers recommend it? And how do you know that adding lubricating oil to the fuel system provides additional lubricity?

Planned obsolescence
They: We must keep selling...
We : We must maintain ...
Any moving parts ,no matter what machine is ,need to be lubricated . Injectors and pumps have moving parts .
Conclusion : They need oil . 2T is a cheap but effective solution .Plus we ruin manufacturer plans to raise his car part sells .

 

[VwPassion]

Good fuel lubricity is just as important for today's high pressure common rail fuel systems as it was for the older tech. You don't hear too many folks recommending for the common rails due to dpf/catalyst concerns. I can hear the difference in my common rail when I run lubricity supplements.

Agree . I have CR and i did sacrifice warranty by using 2T and 5w-40 oil from almost at start when i got my car. I must say that is the best gift i did to myself and my car ....
8,7 ash in dpf from 70 max at 44k km (when i did measure it i had these km ) is the prove to myself that 2t and non-507 oil not hurting dpf . At least that much to start concern .

 

[Ranch]

Good fuel lubricity is just as important for today's high pressure common rail fuel systems as it was for the older tech. You don't hear too many folks recommending for the common rails due to dpf/catalyst concerns. I can hear the difference in my common rail when I run lubricity supplements.

LOL, ok! I am not 'into' the CR stuff that much.. so consider me 'aware' now!
So it's not so much the mechanical part of the CR system, (pump and injectors) , but the crap downstream that doesn't play well with the added lube. Gotcha!