2 stroke oil & dpf data

[steve05ram360]

Using this thread to track & share how fast the dpf fills with ash from using 2 stroke oil (2SO). Using Super Tech ash-less tcw-3 oil (walmart brand) at a rate of 8 oz for the 1st tank, then 6oz per tank after that. Looks like I am behind in the ash level when compared to the averages collected over in the emissions forum. So, I will check every fill up and log the data here and if it starts piling up as everyone thinks it will, I can always bail. Did all the research and found no evidence that the dpf gets prematurely clogged so I will be the guinea pig. Forum threads indicate a cleaner burning motor with less smoke (dpf-less motors), also my experience on the ram.

Also should note that I am running Royal Purple HPS 5w-30 oil since 40k and the AFE CAI with the prodry filter. Fun starts later this week when I fill back up, currently have 185ish miles on this tank now so maybe Friday.

Date.......Mileage..Oil Ash Vol.... Soot Ld Calc.. Soot LD Meas Regen km
08/12/2013 48469... 39ml........... 4.2........... 0........... 10
08/27/2013 50551... 39ml........... 14.7.......... 0.3......... 350
08/29/2013 50886... 39ml........... 15.9.......... 0........... 460 *** 2S oil added after this fillup
08/31/2013 51150... 39ml........... 12.6.......... 0........... 390
09/01/2013 51249... 39ml........... 2.7........... 0........... 0 *** added FRW & NTEM
09/03/2013 51497... 39ml........... 14.1.......... 1.5......... 400
09/04/2013 51670... 39ml........... 7.8........... n/a......... 160
09/05/2013 51844... 39ml........... 15.6.......... 0........... 440
09/06/2013 52019... 39ml........... 10.8.......... 0........... 230
09/09/2013 52187... 39ml........... 5.4........... 0........... 60
09/10/2013 52353... 39ml........... 12.3.......... 0........... 330
09/11/2013 52545... 39ml........... 7.5........... 0........... 140
09/12/2013 52709... 39ml........... 13.5.......... 2.4......... 400
09/13/2013 52867... 39ml........... 4.0........... 0........... 80
09/16/2013 53099... 39ml........... 3.0........... 0........... 10
09/17/2013 53267... 39ml........... 12.0.......... 0........... 280
09/18/2013 53437... 39ml........... 6.0........... 0........... 100
09/19/2013 53597... 39ml........... 13.2.......... 0........... 360
09/20/2013 53780... 39ml........... 9.0........... 0........... 160
09/23/2013 53972... 39ml........... 0.5........... 0........... 10
09/24/2013 54138... 39ml........... 14.3.......... 0........... 180
09/27/2013 54253... 39ml........... 5.7........... 0........... 80
09/29/2013 54547... 39ml........... 6.9........... 0........... 180
09/30/2013 54713... 39ml........... 14.4.......... 0........... 450
10/01/2013 54868... 39ml........... 6.9........... 0........... 150
10/02/2013 55075... 39ml........... 15.9.......... 0........... 480
10/03/2013 55243... 39ml........... 10.2.......... 0........... 230
10/04/2013 55400... 39ml........... 16.8.......... 0........... 480
10/07/2013 55658... 39ml........... 10.8.......... 0........... 300
10/08/2013 55814... 39ml........... 16.8.......... 0........... 560
10/09/2013 55975... 39ml........... 8.7........... 0........... 240
10/10/2013 56131... 39ml........... 15.0.......... 3.6......... 390
10/12/2013 56377... 39ml........... 11.4.......... 0........... 310
10/14/2013 56550... 39ml........... 4.8........... 0........... 70
10/15/2013 56714... 39ml........... 11.7.......... 0.9......... 330
10/16/2013 56870... 39ml........... 4.5........... 0........... 40
10/17/2013 57035... 39ml........... 11.1.......... 0.3......... 310
10/21/2013 57298... 39ml........... 7.8........... 0........... 210
10/22/2013 57463... 39ml........... 14.1.......... 0........... 250 *** beat on it this tank
10/23/2013 57623... 39ml........... 7.8........... 0........... 0
10/24/2013 57787... 39ml........... 15.3.......... 0........... 260
10/25/2013 57951... 39ml........... 8.4........... 0........... 190
10/28/2013 58114... 39ml........... 16.2.......... 2.1......... 450
10/29/2013 58275... 39ml........... 9.0........... 0........... 230
10/30/2013 58440... 39ml........... 16.2.......... 3.0......... 490
10/31/2013 58602... 48ml........... 9.0........... 0........... 230
01/04/2014 67299... 48ml........... 9.0........... 0........... 30
01/25/2014 69845... 60ml........... 4.8........... 0........... 60
06/19/2014 76184... 60ml........... 5.1........... 0........... 30

*FRW = fuel rail wrap (already had the return lines & filter canister wrapped)
*NTEM = Neuspeed turbo exhaust muffler

Averages 60,913/57.56

Adding this link on oils, Royal Purple vs Mobil 1 (gas versions)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...test-results-between-RP-and-M1-after-5k-miles

Adding link to lubricity study info
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/a...tives-study-done-diesel-place.html#post937240

afe pg7 57133

 

[tdiatlast]

It would be good to know what crankcase oil you've used up to now. Also, any fuel additives? When did you install the CAI? Any other modifications to the engine?
Has the car had regular 10k maintenance done?

 

[steve05ram360]

The first 3 services were done by vw and i assume they are using the castrol oil, since that ended and i took over maintenance i moved over to the rp hps and am swapping both filters at 10k CI's.

Did some comparison testing on the intakes and the afe on there off & on for about 3500 miles starting from arkund 40k.

No fuel additives used regularly, once in a while psd white.

Insulated the fuel return lines and the filter housing to prevent heat soak on them. I will be doing the fuel rail later this week and adding the turbo discharge pipe this weekend. Also planning a 2 micron filter addition after the main filter and to chip it by years end.

As long as i have owned it (since 27k miles) yes regular maintanence has been done.

 

[tdiatlast]

While I like your initiative with this experiment, I think you've created so many variables that the value of your data is diminished for those of us running stock engines with true VWoA approved 507 oil.

 

[steve05ram360]

Perhaps, however having been on the RP HPS now for 10500 miles and seeing the effects, there is no way I'm going back. Wifes car is still on the 507 oil and all stock so there is the opportunity to test with her car if there are no adverse effects to mine. She is currently above the average for ash volume being at 90ml @ 86000 miles and it would be interesting to see if I could reverse that trend. Her car does not see the long commute like mine does... she puts maybe 35 miles/day on it vs the 160 or so that I do. Also should point out that on my commute 85~90% of the way is using CC set between 64~67 mph.

 

[steve05ram360]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention... the only thing I am concerned with here is the ash volume level and the only things that are going to change on it is the rail wrap & turbo discharge pipe. Everything else will stay the same until the tune happens. None of that should affect the ash volume.

 

[tdiatlast]

I hear you. Re: ash, for sure your wife's 35 miles/day is loading things up, while your 90% cruise is keeping things clean. I doubt you'll be able to prove that the RP is what is keeping your ash load lower than hers.
The ash load in my 67k miles JSW, used primarily in city driving, with Castrol oil, is higher than average, so I'm still not sure you're going to be able to prove anything. I think it's driving style, not oil.
I like your experiment, though, and will continue to watch your progress. Good luck!

 

[steve05ram360]

thanks!

I agree it is tough to prove anything with the DPF, better to just collect & present the data and let people draw their own conclusions. As for the wifes car, I could always just do the RP oil for her next 10k OCI and see what her ash level is doing along the way. Problem is at her rate of driving, might not be till next year that I get to swap her oil.

I will be posting updates in post #1 with a ping reply to alert anyone who subscribes (using the thread tools method).

 

[South Coast Guy]

I guess I am still confused why you are adding 2 stroke oil to your fuel. Is there some science behind this, or is it just some anecdotal tale from decades ago?

 

[steve05ram360]

I guess I am still confused why you are adding 2 stroke oil to your fuel. Is there some science behind this, or is it just some anecdotal tale from decades ago?

Lubrication for the HPFP.

edit: whoops, wrong thread reference... I insulated the fuel return lines & filter canister to prevent heat soak in the lines to help keep the hpfp cooler. The under hood temps are too hot for my liking during a regen and cause everything under the hood to become heat soaked. The TCW-3 is supposed to burn clean and has helped clean up smokey exhausts on non-dpf equipped trucks and provide a cleaner emissions output as measured by owners over in Europe.

 

[steve05ram360]

Pre- test data...

Date.......Mileage..Oil Ash Volume..Soot Calc.... Soot meas.... Regen miles
08/12/2013 48469... 39ml........... 4.2........... 0........... 10
08/27/2013 50551... 39ml........... 14.7.......... 0.3......... 350
08/29/2013 50886... 39ml........... 15.9.......... 0........... 460 *** 2S oil added after this fillup

 

[PassatSE4me]

I will be the guinea pig.

Nice of you to step up.

It will certainly be informative and useful to those who are interested.

 

[steve05ram360]

Motor did an active regen this morning, first thing i noticed was the temp was down 40-50* during the 5 minute regen cycle. Logged the data & can compare against previous regens if needed.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Is there a way you can also log the regen time? Mine take about 10 minutes every time. I am a special case though, short tripping <5 miles currently (Changes at the end of Oct. to 35 miles). I have to take it up on the highway every 2 weeks to let it do one. Maybe it is different just for me.

 

[steve05ram360]

Done... I have been logging data using torque almost every trip to & from work. I will go have a look at the data & let u know. From observation though it is about 5 minutes iirc

 

[steve05ram360]

Just looked at the data on the phone, 6 min 22 sec for total regen time...

 

[JamesTwo]

Because there no logical way adding oil to fuel would help lube the fuel pump???

I guess I am still confused why you are adding 2 stroke oil to your fuel. Is there some science behind this, or is it just some anecdotal tale from decades ago?

 

[South Coast Guy]

Of course!!

 

[Bob_Fout]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=358699

 

[MacBuckeye]

What brands of "ash-less tcw-3 oil" would be recommended? I see Shaeffer has one....
"Supreme 7000 Synthetic Plus 2-Cycle Oil is a para-synthetic ashless 2-cycle oil that is specially formulated to meet and exceed the performance needs of today’s high performance water cooled two cycle engines that specify the use of a 2- cycle oil that meets NMMA TC-W3"
I've heard other TDI owners adding 2-cycle oil to their fuel, but I'm not sure I want to try it. I am going to switch over to Mobil ESP instead of Castrol at the next oil change.

 

[steve05ram360]

I would hold off on the 2 stroke until I get some miles on it. Do not use the synthetic one, make sure it is mineral oil based. I am using the walmart brand super tech tcw3 oil... there are 2 types there, make sure (when you do get it) you get the right one. I read several threads as well on another forum, I think it was a land rover??? not 100% sure but they were having to do a smoke test and were burning cleaner after switching over. That kinda sold me on going for it.

But hey since your here... maybe you can help me to understand why the last data point in post #1 has the soot load calculated dropping...??? Went kart racing Friday after work and beat on it some on the long drive home (105 miles). If the soot load calc is a value that is reset after a regen shouldnt that number be higher when comparing it to data point #2? (looking @ miles since last regen as a comparison).

 

[steve05ram360]

Updated post #1... added the neuspeed piece & insulated the fuel rail over the weekend. Fuel temps are now around 100*f (on the drive home tonight ambient around 67*f). There is a very noticeable change in power across the rpm range, pulls stronger & longer. I would presume the neuspeed piece would reduce soot and the fuel temp drop would increase it. IIRC, timing is advanced with cooler fuel temps. Did I go to far? My best efforts to keep my foot out of it today were futile, could not do it, too much fun.

Any data watchers have an opinion? Currently there is 6 oz added to 10 gallons of fuel as of yesterday.

 

[turbobooster]

What did you use to insulate the fuel rail and return lines?

 

[steve05ram360]

DEI products... there is a velcro wrap for the rail, insulated tubing for the return lines and a sheet that you can cut for the canister...
http://www.designengineering.com/



http://www.designengineering.com/ca...ngineering-inc/line-hose-protection/cool-tube

http://www.designengineering.com/ca...ineering-inc/line-hose-protection/heat-shroud

http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/dei-cycle/insulating-materials/reflect-cool

 

[turbobooster]

I really like reading this thread and had no idea that you could look at the ash content of the DPF without taking it off. I've been running about one ounce of two stroke oil per gallon for about 10k miles. No issues so far. It does seem like DPF regen cycles happen less frequently, but I have never kept track of them to know for sure.

 

[steve05ram360]

I really like reading this thread and had no idea that you could look at the ash content of the DPF without taking it off. I've been running about one ounce of two stroke oil per gallon for about 10k miles. No issues so far. It does seem like DPF regen cycles happen less frequently, but I have never kept track of them to know for sure.

That is on the high side, you should be monitoring the ash level for sure. there is a VCDS cable in the for sale section IIRC, $199 bux if you dont have one and want one. I'm running less than 200:1... started out with 8 oz for a full tank and then 6 oz for minimum 10 gallons. Too much will cause smoke for sure, seen it in my Ram.

 

[steve05ram360]

No new updates, still @ 39ml but up to 52.5k miles, checking level daily and updating post #1. Also found the pressure sensor data on VCDS, thinking I might toss the laptop into the car and log that data on a drive in to work tomorrow to see what it shows.

Added this link to post #1 on RP vs M1 oil (gas versions)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...test-results-between-RP-and-M1-after-5k-miles

 

[FowVay]

Steve, my Jetta is at 48 ml with just over 57,000 miles on the odo. We're trending less than the average of 1 ml per 1000 miles. I'm interested to know if there's a way to reverse the trend and see a drop in accumulation.

 

[steve05ram360]

I dont think you can drop it but I'm shooting for a slowing of the accumulation rate. My wifes J is above the average, now at 90ml@86k miles. Switching her oil over to RP soon and will start tracking hers as well to see if the trend slows. Will probably collect 2x a month on hers since access to her car is limited (works nights).

There was a thread on a different forum over in Europe (IIRC) where they were using 2SO w/o problems in DPF equipped cars. No data to support what they were seeing so I thought I'd try to collect data & report to see what I get. So far non 507 oil (RP) and 2 stroke are not having an issue with the DPF.

 

[FowVay]

I followed the German/European thread on that discussion for years but there was never any actual numbers or 'data' relating to soot load or ash content. It was interesting reading none the less. I never heard of anyone plugging a filter and those folks used low-ash JASO/ISO oils that met FD/EGD ratings as opposed to ashless TC-W3 products.

here's a link to the thread - it's still ongoing:

http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html