2.Slow really that bad? Something to concider...

wainair

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Of course everyone has read just about every auto critic bash VW for putting the venerable 2.0 5speed in the base model, but maybe they should reconsider their opinion. They are trying to market base Jetta against the Civic. The 2.0 has been around forever and as a result it has a massive selection of aftermarket options for tuning and upgrading. Just what the Civic tuner crowd would like. As a young tuner they don't want a car stuffed full of options and engines you can't get aftermarket bits for. They are going to rip out the stereo and put in a big system in anyway so they don't want the price of the car saddled with expensive frill options. they are going to replace them anyways. I'm sure the tuner crowd would prefer an IRS set up but on the other side of the coin the mkiii and mkiv tuner crowd have been modding the torsion bar set ups and making them work for years now. I really think this car could go over really well with the tuner crowd, especially with the 2.0, if they market it well with the right tuners. A truly base car with a base price tag. A good looking body that lends itself to dolling up as the rendered pic I've posted before shows. After all, isn't it better to have a car with a lot of potential if you're a tuner, than one that is already done, to someone elses liking, right out of the box? Granted that's not for everyone, but hey, that's what the up optioned models are for. And if you are still really bent out of shape about the rear suspension, the GLI will be here before long for you. Rear drums no good for you?(even though the perform just as well under normal day to day driving) Do a "big brake" upgrade. They will have prettier calipers anyways to look at through your racing rims that every 20 something put on there car!

I think VW is smarter than some give them credit for. I just hope they have got the marketing department online!
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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What upgrades are available for a 2.slow? Some companies have turbo and supercharger kits, but they're very pricey. Otherwise it's difficult to get more power out of that engine.

A 2.0 liter engine with eight valves, no variable cam timing, and making 57 HP/liter is archaic. Fuel economy isn't great, and they aren't even that durable. This engine has nothing going for it except amortized tooling.
 

wainair

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Turbo/Supercharging is one thing. The thing I'm saying is that it is a base engine, that is just filling the hole. Getting you off the dealer lot as it were. Pull it out and put a 16v in there or anything better. Hell, put a vr6 in there if you want. Modding is about changing things up isn't it? I'd change something if I were a mod-er, that's for sure.
 

dr.zed

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We owned a 2.0 in an MKIV. It did 650 kms in the summer on 41L fuel and 600 kms in the winter on the same size tank. It was the best mileage of any gas car we've owned.

... and it wasn't THAT slow.
 

wainair

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What upgrades are available for a 2.slow?
You know, I've never looked. But ya got me thinking(a dangerous thing.... usually for my bank book:rolleyes:) and this is what I could come up with, with the help of Google of course and about 10 minutes.

http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_engkit.htm

brakes, I'm sure something will be coming...

http://www.autotech.com/prod_brakes_rrbrakeconv.htm

as you said turbos and superchargers....

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/2443/MK4_2_0L_STAGE1_TURBO_KIT

http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/NEU491093.htm

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/862/NOS_Universal_Wet_Nitrous_Oxide_System

other stuff...

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/neuspeed-pflo-intake-volkswagen-golf-9906-p-4776.html

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/categories/159/Limited_Slip_Differential

http://www.eurosportacc.com/kentcams_performance_camshaft_cams.htm

This guy has the idea...

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/572459

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/572459/4

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/572459/5 (OH My God I'm so embarrassed for him.... He actually took a picture showing his torsion bar rear end!!!:eek:)

Now just imagine that in a mkvi Jetta with a West Coast Customs interior job on it!!:cool: I think even more now that the mkvi Jetta in the base configuration is a steal for the tuner crowd!
 

wainair

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We owned a 2.0 in an MKIV. It did 650 kms in the summer on 41L fuel and 600 kms in the winter on the same size tank. It was the best mileage of any gas car we've owned.

... and it wasn't THAT slow.
I drove many of the old 1.8 8v and 16v before the 2.0 and they were fine too. I never had a problem keeping up. A long history of speeding tickets will confirm that! LOL:D
 

GoFaster

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I don't think the aftermarket support for that engine is on VW's radar screen. For a mass market 4 door sedan, what the aftermarket tuners are going to think is irrelevant to the original manufacturer. Only for performance cars and sporty cars (Mustang, Camaro, Honda CR-Z believe it or not) and cars in which the manufacturer wants to project that image, even if the car isn't (Scion - hah!) is the aftermarket a consideration AT ALL. VW might consider the aftermarket with the GLI version of this car - but it won't have the drum brakes and beam axle suspension.

For the 2.slow ... They had the tooling ... it's all paid for ... the engine is cheap to build ... done deal. Nothing more.

For the majority of people that will be buying this version of that car, the 2.slow will be adequate. Nothing special ... but adequate.
 

Fixmy59bug

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The 2.Slow really isn't that bad of a motor...

As long as maintenance is properly performed it really is one of the most reliable motors that Vw makes. Note I said reliable, not the best. Also, note I said one of the most reliable, not THE most reliable.

The 2.0 is an adequate motor for some one who wants a car with better (perceived) quality than their japanese counterparts. Perceived german build quality is higher than perceived japanese or american build quality.

For someone who wants to put little Johnny or Suzy in a safe car, the 2.0 is a perfect car. You will get the noted Vw safety, you will not get something with too much power that will get said kid in trouble, and you will get an engine that is not constantly breaking down or being recalled.

The number of times I see a 2.0 in the shop as compared to the other motors is very low.
 

BlueGraphite'10TDI

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I personally would not even consider the 2.0. But a friend of mine has a 95 Golf, with the 2.slow. It has 190,000 miles on it. He bought it and had to put alot of work into it. Then a friend of ours (a girl) was driving on the highway, she floored it, and it downshifted into I presume 2nd... The car had transmission problems.

Long story short... I now has a bent valve, only runs on 3 cylinders til it is warmed up, and makes a loud screeching sound when cold...

But it gets my friend around town as a 2nd car. It saves the clutch on his Spec V.
 

VLS_GUY

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The problem for the 2011 Jetta is that the Koreans are going to be selling feature rich cars with new design direct injection engines for equal or less money. Add a longer warranty and the 2011 Jetta will have to be heavily discounted to move off the lots.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I still think the 2.0 is a dog, but I looked at the VW site this morning and "built" a bare-bones Jetta. Came out at $17K even. EPA is 24/34. If we assume the '11 TDI is priced similarly to the '10 (maybe a bit less) and the fuel economy is about the same (30/42), then you're looking at $5K more to get the TDI, although admittedly with more features. If you drive the car 100K at today's fuel prices (RUL at about $2.69, diesel at $2.99 here right now), and average 28 in the 2.0 and 38 in the TDI, you'll save $1,738 in fuel with the TDI versus the 2.0. Doesn't make up the $5K price difference.

I know there are as many ways to do this math as there are people on Fred's, but my point is that if you aren't big on features and you don't much care about power, the 2.0 gets you into a pretty big, pretty modern car for short money. Makes the TDI look like a choice not an economic decision.

IBW was a GL. $18,000 plus $1,475 for the diesel. Crank windows, no sunroof, manual mirrors, no heated seats, no CD player, no ESP or ASR, steel wheels with hubcaps. It was exactly what I wanted. Imagine if you could buy a MKVI TDI that was equally bare as the 2.0 price leader for $17K plus $1,500 for the diesel. I'd be in line.

But you won't be able to. Because VW looks at the TDI as a premium vehicle. Too bad.
 

greengeeker

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Base vehicle comparison

Jetta
$15,995
2.0L - 115hp,125ftlbs
6M/6A
9.8/11sec 0-60mph
24/34 / 23/29 MPG

Elantra
$14,145
2.0L - 138hp,136ftlbs
5M/4A
8.8sec 0-60
26/35

Civic
$15,805
1.8L - 140hp,128ftlbs
5M/5A
9.6sec 0-60
26/34 / 24/36 MPG

Corolla
$15,450
1.8L - 132hp/128ftlbs
5M/4A
9.1sec 0-60
26/34MPG
 

RabbitGTI

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The 2.0 Jetta will be more fun to drive, more comfortable, handle better and last longer than any of those other entry level cars. And God forbid you crash it hard, it will be safer. It's a hell of a deal.
 

wainair

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IBW was a GL. $18,000 plus $1,475 for the diesel. Crank windows, no sunroof, manual mirrors, no heated seats, no CD player, no ESP or ASR, steel wheels with hubcaps. It was exactly what I wanted. Imagine if you could buy a MKVI TDI that was equally bare as the 2.0 price leader for $17K plus $1,500 for the diesel. I'd be in line.

But you won't be able to. Because VW looks at the TDI as a premium vehicle. Too bad.
That's something I've never understood either. TDI drivers are, generally speaking, a very frugal bunch. Why wouldn't they market a bare bones model like you described with the most fuel efficient motor they make (like a 1.8tdi that they get in Europe)? My last TDI was a 2000 3dr golf sans a/c, zero options other than the TDI. The sales guy was baffled why I'd want such a base car(it took him a week to find one and have it trucked in!) but money was really an issue at the time and I just wanted the cheapest most fuel efficient car, VW car, I could buy. I think he was just ticked because he couldn't up sale me on options. I think VW North America confuse our frugality with an unwillingness to pay for quality.

This time round moneys a bit better and I'd like some frills, so the price drop VW has engineered into this model of Jetta has allowed me to get options that 10 years ago I never would have considered.

But ultimately my inner frugal guy wishes they would bring over the POLO TDI blue motion. I'd buy that in a heartbeat but I don't want to wait for another year only to hear that they changed their minds and decided they aren't going to bring it over here(or only sell an up-motored gasser).
 
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greengeeker

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That's something I've never understood either. TDI drivers are, generally speaking, a very frugal bunch. Why wouldn't they market a bare bones model like you described with the most fuel efficient motor they make (like a 1.8tdi that they get in Europe)?
One word: margin.
 

wainair

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One word: margin.
Sadly you've hit the nail on the head. This is a quote from a Globe and Mail article talking with the head of VW Canada, John White:

"But frankly, if Canada were a bigger, more important market, White would also be looking at offering a version of the subcompact VW Polo. He’s not. And he quickly dashes any speculation that the Polo might come to Canada in the next two years. It’s impossible for VW to price the European-built Polo low enough in Canada to compete with $10,000 Hyundai Accents, $12,000 Toyota Yarises, and sub-$13,000 Ford Fiestas."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...hopes-ride-on-vws-new-compact/article1653527/

So maybe in a couple of years they will build some Polo's for us in Mexico, but it will be a while.:(
 

wainair

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The Diesel smart was sold in Canada, it's not anymore. Once the US started to get the new gas model that is the model we get too. I heard originally the only reason why we got the diesel is because the old gas model of the smart didn't have a vapor capture system so it wouldn't meet emissions standards. The diesel doesn't require a vapor capture system so that's what we got. I wish they would still sell the diesel but I doubt they ever will again. I don't understand why because the CDI smart out sold the new gas model by quite a bit. Once again they think no one likes diesel here.

Oh and after the last four years of my less than fuel efficiency in mind driving style(I have a lead foot) I average 58.5mpg(48.7 mpg US) and my friend who drives like a sane person gets about 63mpg on average (52.5mpg US).
 
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mo_focus

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people who were buying the city Jetta will be the same ones buying the 2L slow motor. I have a 98 Jetta and i think its the same 2.0L motor, i have no problems with it on the highway doing 120kms, and in the streets its a good engine. Its slow....but it does the trick. Dont forget not everyone is into racing thier vw's.
The people who bought the city Jetta will love the new look, new space. Actually i have a friend that his parents were looking into getting a cheap retirement car. They were looking at Corrola's and civics. When i told them about the Jetta they said No thank you too expensive. That was until i told them they can get one for the price of Corrola and civic. You should have seen thier face. Lot of the old european retired ppl that live in Canada still prefer thier German brand cars over anything else. Its the old mentality....Kia's and Hyndai's are cheaply built! ohh well, who am i trying to change thier mind at this age! :D
 
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Pelican18TQA4

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The 8v 2.0l was decent in the MkIII, adequate in the MkIV, and I'm sure it will be very blah and teetering on the edge of inadequate in the MkVI. The car is just too heavy for that engine. I do wonder if the MkVI 2.0l is the same iteration found briefly in the New Beetle Convertible. That engine had the same 115 hp and 125 lb-ft as the MkVI 2.0l and it incorporated a balance shaft and a variable intake manifold. The "old" 2.0l had 115 hp and 122 lb-ft, and no balance shaft or variable intake manifold. I will say though, that many people shopping for a <$18k car won't really care about IRS or the engine under the hood, but will care about the size and safety of the car, and the perceived better design and fit-and-finish compared to Civics or Corollas. In that regard, VW has done a good job with the MkVI Jetta. However, I really think that only the base model should be highly "dumbed down" like that, and at least the TDI and SEL should have the nicer interiors and IRS. The torsion beam might not give up that much in terms of handling or ride comfort, but the total that it gives up is noticeable from what I've read thus far.
 

Rod Bearing

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2011 Jetta. A Home Run.

I just returned from a long look at a new Jetta. The only cars the dealer had were all 2.5 engined SE or SEL models.

I have to tell you all that you shouldn't judge this car based on what you read or are even told. It is a very nice car for the money in SE trim, and even nicer in SEL.

It drives extremely well and stops on a dime. I was really impressed in the ride, cabin noise level, and in seat comfort.

The 2011 Jetta is selling fast according to the sales staff and they are already running short on supply.

You need to go look at the car and drive it to appreciate what VW accomplished for the price range it's in.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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What sales staff doesn't tell you a car is selling well and in short supply? :D

What you don't mention that every review I've seen has is how much road noise there is in the car. I'd be concerned about this as the MKV was already noisier than the A4 in my experience.
 

Rod Bearing

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From my last post:

It drives extremely well and stops on a dime. I was really impressed in the ride, cabin noise level, and in seat comfort.

It's quieter inside than any of my TDI's I own right now.

I can't find any negatives in the new Jetta.

The dealership has sold all but 4 of their first 18 in less than 5 days.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I just drove one, too. They for sure "cheapened" the car, but it still does not feel like a "cheap" car to me. Yes, that 5 cylinder still has its signature "thrum" as all 5 cylinders do, but it is not much higher on the NVH scale as some of the other larger displacement 4 cylinders of the competitors. I'd compare it to the 2.4L engine in the Accord, the 2.5L engine in the Altima, the 2.4L engine in the Camry, etc.

The base 2.0L was not available here yet, and while that engine is somewhat lackluster it has proven itself to be simple and reliable for the most part. Keep in mind, there are now about 6 different crossflow SOHC 2.0L engines, all but the ABA being based on the newer EA113 engine (same as the ALH, BEW, BHW, BRM). The AEG was the only one I'd stay away from (1999 through early 2001 A4 cars) as it has had a bad reputation for massive oil burning.

The thing that scares me about the newer 2.0L gassers, and they probably use them in the newest version in the 2011 Jetta, is that they use chain-driven dual balance shafts. :rolleyes: Maybe they wised up and went to gears like they did on all 2006+ diesels, I don't know yet. Someone with newer ETKA could confirm what setup they use on the new 2.0L.

But as far as low-cost and simple, the AZG, AVH, BEV, etc. 2.0L gassers are great really. Far simpler than even the simplest TDI, let alone the newest CR TDIs, is happy to burn cheap RUG, and is pretty low maintenance. I think it will be a struggle to move the new Jetta, but who cares about speed, really? It will get anyone who buys it from A to B reliably.

What I cannot fathom is, the base Jetta has no A/C or radio... yet power windows, locks, keyless entry, etc. are standard. ***???? :cool:
 

mo_focus

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the difference between a 98 Jetta and 2011 Jetta base line is only 289 pounds! thats just like one fat guy! I dont think the engine will have any issues with the 2.0L slow :D
98 Jetta is 1175 kg, 2011 Jetta is 1289kg difference of 114kg or 289pounds!
 

mo_focus

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the difference between a 98 Jetta and 2011 Jetta base line is only 289 pounds! thats just like one fat guy! I dont think the engine will have any issues with the 2.0L slow :D
98 Jetta is 1175 kg, 2011 Jetta is 1289kg difference of 114kg or 289pounds!
i actually went out to lunch with 3 coworkers today and all are average size ppl. My 98 jetta is well its OLD! but had no issues with driving the 4 of us to lunch and back. I think the muffler was touching the ground, but that was just about it! 2.0L slow is slow as per American standards, but its a great little engine that does its job.
 

Rod Bearing

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I'm betting the 2.0 engine will be more than enough for the big city environment where you rarely get over 60-70 mph. Here in DFW for instance, if it's a city car then it will be fine. Traffic creeps along most of the time here. Out north of Ft Worth you can gouge on the gass some and buzz along. Most places it's traffic everywhere.

The 2.0 is a good idea for such places as this.:)
 

Pelican18TQA4

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the difference between a 98 Jetta and 2011 Jetta base line is only 289 pounds! thats just like one fat guy! I dont think the engine will have any issues with the 2.0L slow :D
98 Jetta is 1175 kg, 2011 Jetta is 1289kg difference of 114kg or 289pounds!
That 289 lbs. saps about 29 HP from the engine over the same engine in a MkIII since it takes about 1 HP to overcome every 10 lbs. of vehicle weight. Throw an 86 HP engine in your MkIII and you'll have similar performance to the 115 HP MkVI. Of course, you can also throw about three adults in the car and experience the same decrease in performance. While the car will certainly move just fine, it won't move with any kind of authority.

As Rod Bearing pointed out, the 2.slow MkVI will be ideal for low-speed driving situations like cities and the surrounding extra-urban areas. Move on out to the suburbs and rural areas however, and you couldn't pay me to drive that car in those driving conditions, let alone on a highway where the passing power will be practically non-existent. I'd venture to guess that VW will sell very few 2.slow MkVIs and the SE will be the volume leader, just like it was in the MkV.

And what's this about the Jetta S not offering a radio or A/C? According to VW's website, the Jetta S has a 4-speaker stereo and manual A/C.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
There is a model below the S, chances are they won't sell many, and those will probably end up being mostly in Canada. It is a mid-year intro, not available yet. It will MSRP below $15k US.
 
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