2.5L AEL TDI with 6-speed manual swap into C4100 Avant

[DangerBoy]

2.5L AEL TDI into C4A6 Avant plus VNT conversion with ECU swap.

Hello everyone,

After researching and obsessing about having a TDI quattro for many years now, I've gathered a couple vehicles for building what I hope to be the car that can allow me to move on with my life. HAHA!

The donor:

I have a 1996 Audi A6 Sedan with the 2.5L inline 5 cylinder diesel mated to a 01E TDI 6 speed transmission, with all wheel drive. The car itself could use a little bit of work but it is from Europe so it has the projector headlights which I plan to keep. The interior is not my cup of tea, tan cloth with very few options. Only power windows up front, manuals in the rear... no heated seats, just a sedan with the excellent engine/drivetrain.

The receiver:

I just bought a 1994 Audi 100 Wagon with the V6. It is an automatic and has many features, black leather interior, extra fold out rearward facing seating in the back so I can take up to 7 people, power everything, heated seats... and the mechanical locking rear diff. I've read that since that car is an auto it very well may have the wrong diff ratio for the engine and trans I'm putting into it, worst case I'll just swap the entire driveline from the sedan and use that. I'm really hoping to be able to keep the mechanical locker though, I'll be keeping the EDL from the A6 most likely, so the only time I will even use the diff lock will be if I'm in really slippery/bad conditions and I want that extra traction at all times (I'm going to defeat the speed disengagement).

While I have the cars apart I plan on getting a VNT for the AEL and sourcing an ECU from ALH or something and configuring it for the 5 cyl. I may go for slightly larger injectors but at this point I want a wider power range rather than higher peak power so we'll see how that goes. This car is great but it doesn't spool like my ALH's did. I think this engine would really shine with a VNT setup.

After it is all said and done I hope it is worth all the work! I think it may just be nearly the best all-around car that exists, I'm interested to hear what you guys think. I have quite a bit of money already invested in the project so might as well tell myself it will be amazing! HAHA!

Does anyone on here know of a rear tailgate for a C4 100/A6 that doesn't have any rust or damage? The car is a forest green color but I can always get it painted. If anyone is looking for any V6/Auto/C4 sedan parts I'll likely be selling everything else afterward.

I'll be taking pics once the dismantling begins. This is more of a swap rather than a custom fabricated build, but still hopefully worthy of a thread!

Dave

 

[DangerBoy]

Does anyone on this vast forum have experience with getting the ECU from an ALH to work with the 5 Cylinder with a VNT? I heard somewhere that the computers are very similar between the ALH and the European T4 5 cylinders that have VNT turbochargers. If it is just a matter of recoding for a 5 cyl with VAGCOM then I can manage that easy enough. I don't know if ECU's for the distributor pump TDI's are cylinder specific.

I would like to have this issue sorted before I even start to tear down the cars so I can swap the necessary parts prior to reassembly. Also, is there anyone that has a recommendation for where to source a new clutch that can still use the OEM DM flywheel? I have read about a few people that have had vibration issues when switching to SM and I plan on doing highway driving so the vibration would be annoying. Any info would be awesome!

Also, the keyless entry feature of the ALH cars, is that controlled by the computer in the dash? I would like to retrofit a more modern keyless entry rather than the Infrared unit that is on the Audi now.

Thanks guys. It's quattro weather here in Calgary today!

 

[mogly]

Sounds like a great project!

The 2.5L I-5 (151hp) used in T4s had a VNT turbo. FWIW. VNT22 IIRC.

Load up some pictures on here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd appreciate seeing your project.

 

[DangerBoy]

It has begun...

I am new to posting photos on this forum. Any quick tips on getting my photos online so I have a URL to put photos on here? Right now I only have photos on my local system.

As soon as I get the ability to, I will start posting photos.

Anyone have a rear liftback/hatchback for a C4 A6/100 wagon? What did they change on the tailgate that makes the A6 hatch not fit on the 100? Can they be swapped directly over? My car is a deep green color... I really hope to source a hatch for it before this project is finished.

 

[mogly]

Get a photobucket account. Load them there and link them here. That's the route I use and find it very easy.

 

[timmyc4]

This sounds seriously AWESOME !!!

 

[DangerBoy]

Alright guys,

So I've just spent more thousands on nifty little parts for the AEL engine from europe: Namely the EDC15 ECU from a T4 VNT van from europe (151 HP R5 TDI), as well as the intake and exhaust manifolds, nozzles and VNT turbo itself (GT20V). New timing belts and such as well. Should be here soon... In time I may decide to go a bit bigger on the turbo but for now I just want VNT and the more modern ECU, I'll worry about getting more power later.

So here is my main dillemma, as I'm just about to start pulling these two cars all apart, I couldn't help but start wishing the engine would fit better in something that was smaller than the wagon, but still would have a rear hatch. I really can't stand sedans, you can't put anything remotely tall in the trunk of them. The pretty much brought me to the wagon I purchased, but the more I look at it, the less I like the whole idea.

So now I'm looking for an Audi 90 Coupe instead... something from the early 90's. I figure if I get one with a manual and the 20V 5 cylinder it really will not be that major of a job, and at least the engine bay can handle the size of the AEL. With all the electronic upgrades to the engine and using the gauges from the A6 (the center gauge portion comes off, I hope the housings are similar) I think I could make the whole package work well.

Lets face it, the coupe looks pretty slick compared to a wagon, and with a done up AEL in it that would be a riot to drive.

Anyone have advice to lend on this before I get rid of this wagon and start searching for a Coupe? Anyone that has a coupe that is collecting dust that fits my requirements (preferably in Alberta) please let me know!

I will get the whole photo process started pretty soon. I know threads suck without pictures. Sorry about that guys! I do have all this stuff... it is depressing how much money I have into this so I can have a car that saves me a few bucks every fill up. I think well tuned with a VNT the AEL will be much more than that though.

I hope when it is done it will be a car which no other around here can touch in terms of it's efficiency/comfort/fun factor overall ratio.

 

[manfred5]

Did I get this right - you do not want to make this AEL project? (Sorry for my english, coming from german). This is less beautiful
:-(

 

[mogly]

Should be fun with the newer upgraded R-5 pieces! We still need to see some pics.

I'm a real fan of wagons. I can appreciate those that aren't too but it's really hard to beat the functionality of the wagon.

 

[DangerBoy]

Here are some photos of the cars I'm working with. Instead of swapping into the green '94 Audi 100 Wagon which is shown at the bottom, I'm now putting it all into the blue '97 A6 Wagon shown in the middle (this is assuming the photos stay in the positions they are shown in my preview window). The '97 I picked up is in really good shape and has the radio remotes instead of the infrared, and also already has the quattro IV system like the TDI so it will swap over really easy.

I'm getting rid of the green wagon now, if anyone would like one for whatever reason. I'll keep you all posted as the teardown progresses.

 

[DangerBoy]

How do I get the title of this thread changed? I tried changing it but it didn't apply in the Tdi conversions directory. I think the VNT and ECU swap is an interesting part of this project, and should probably be mentioned in the title. Parts should be here today!

 

[mogly]

This is a sweet swap. Titles don't matter very much IMHO. There isn't THAT many swaps going on in here and those interested will be following regardless of titles

I'm certainly following.

 

[DangerBoy]

Parts have arrived!



I'll have to start planning my wiring modifications and get these engines pulled. I'm debating also adding pre-turbo water injection to this setup. I'll be taking the turbo apart and getting the compressor coated with a ceramic coating to help reduce any erosion that may occur. My research on the subject suggests that if I get the mist to strike the compressor as close to the center as possible, the slower velocity of the blades there makes for a more suitable entrance for the water. We'll see. I have a design (I am a professional mechanical designer) started for a multistage centrifugal pump that will allow for the high pressure needed for the water injection, but still keeps the reliability of a washer pump in that environment.

I'll be getting the exhaust manifold and turbine housing coated at the same time. I'm thinking the VNT parts may move more freely and for longer without issue if I get them coated too, I'll talk to the shop that does this work here in Calgary and ask what they think. They also build racing cars for their own team so they have alot of experience to bring to the table besides just applying the coatings.

I used to race superbikes and I had one of my engines internals coated all over the place. It made a pretty substantial difference, I'm hoping I can do that here as well. If anything it will extend the life of this engine, which from my understanding is already very robust which is great.

The ECU and VNT setup here is from a T4 Van from europe and I have the injectors from that engine too. I read though the IP from that engine is higher pressure and uses different duration for it's injectors as compared to the AEL. I can't help but wonder how this effects what the ECU will be sending once I do the swap vs what I have now. Basically it comes down to the question: Do I keep my AEL injectors with the AHY computer and AEL injection pump or should I use the AHY injectors with the AHY ECU and the AEL injection pump? Perhaps there is no happy combination with what I have? I can always get or make some new maps later, one of the reasons I moved to the EDC15 was the flashing from the OBD instead of getting chips pulled and such.

More to follow soon hopefully!

 

[mogly]

Nice when parts arrive. Feels a bit like Christmas.... even though you know what's inside the box

Curious, what's the harness from? T4?

Interesting idea on the water injection and coatings.

 

[DangerBoy]

Harness is from the T4 yes. I will be pulling it apart and splicing it into the A6 Harness with the ol solder and dual wall shrinktube method. Electrical gremlins have been the biggest annoyance with the Audi's owned thus far, so I'm not going to give any opportunity to create even more with my work on this project.

I drive a Smart Fortwo CDI and I've been seriously contemplating putting the water injection on that car. It is great 90% of the time, but when I hit the highway and we start getting around 105 and over km/hr, the turbo and engine start to really heat up. I have a scanguage and can see the intake temp start to really go up, I'm sure my EGT's get pretty bad after a while. Other than that it is quite fun in town... I figure if water injection has an impact it would be felt very clearly in that application.

I keep myself from taking the plunge into that due to my rule of not "tuning my daily driver". I'll put the effort into the A6 and once it is on the road I'll focus my attention on the Smart then. As it stands now the A6 gets better economy than the fortwo does on the highway, but in town there is nothing that touches the smart. I've seen 2.5 - 3.0 L per 100km before. Anyway... more to come!

 

[mogly]

Harness is from the T4 yes. I will be pulling it apart and splicing it into the A6 Harness with the ol solder and dual wall shrinktube method. Electrical gremlins have been the biggest annoyance with the Audi's owned thus far, so I'm not going to give any opportunity to create even more with my work on this project.

I drive a Smart Fortwo CDI and I've been seriously contemplating putting the water injection on that car. It is great 90% of the time, but when I hit the highway and we start getting around 105 and over km/hr, the turbo and engine start to really heat up. I have a scanguage and can see the intake temp start to really go up, I'm sure my EGT's get pretty bad after a while. Other than that it is quite fun in town... I figure if water injection has an impact it would be felt very clearly in that application.

I keep myself from taking the plunge into that due to my rule of not "tuning my daily driver". I'll put the effort into the A6 and once it is on the road I'll focus my attention on the Smart then. As it stands now the A6 gets better economy than the fortwo does on the highway, but in town there is nothing that touches the smart. I've seen 2.5 - 3.0 L per 100km before. Anyway... more to come!

Where did you source the parts? I need a few pieces to complete my T4 AXG swap. Is the A6 a CE2 fuse panel?

 

[DangerBoy]

Excellent!

So I just managed to get a killer deal on a couple 2 post lifts here in town. A garage was needing to make some space for a much larger unit for limozine work so they decided to sell off a couple lifts they had.

This will sure make this project easier, on my back anyway! Here in Calgary we just had a big dump of snow so I decided I'd take out the 'ol A6 TDI and remind myself why this car is so awesome. The only thing that engine needs is that VNT, so once that is done it'll be interesting to see how she behaves.

 

[DangerBoy]

Well, times are busy but I did get finally get my 2 post hoist setup... now to get the cars dismantled!

Keep you all posted!

 

[DangerBoy]

Took a few hours last night and started to remove parts so I can get this engine pulled. Apparently the car had been in some sort of minor impact in the front... surprise surprise! Oh well, just helps reinforce my choice to do the swap.

Automotive lifts make this work SO much easier on the body!

 

[DangerBoy]

Well, this project is a little hungup as I've hit my "Turbo selection" wall (Many hours of research later... now I'm in anaysis paralysis). I figured I would just mount the GT2052V VNT that I bought from europe from the T4 TDI van but that is proving to be not possible with the vnt actuator/arm relationship in respect to the drain. The turbo center bearing housing casting appears to have two different machining configurations, I'm sure out there is a bearing housing with the actuator 180 degrees relative to how it is now, but even with that I still this only have a GT2052V.

So, I was thinking of picking up a 2.7L Cdi Sprinter turbo and adapting that, it's a GT2256V and at least the actuator is in a much better position, 180 degrees opposite like I mentioned earlier.

Does anyone on here know of an easier way to mix and match Garrett parts? I haven't been able to find any parts lists or anything, I know what I'm looking for roughly, but I don't know if it exists and what vehicle may have it on it. If I can just order the CHRA I want and then source the right compressor and turbine housings then it may fit in nicely without having to carve up the exhaust manifold too much. As it is now I was able to modify the GT2052V's turbine housing flange to bolt right onto my AEL manifold, I'll have to do some match grinding to get the inside to line up. If I could find a GT2052V CHRA with the alternate VNT orientation I may go for that, and then just reuse all my other parts and clock it as needed. One further pain is that turbine housing (volute?) has an extra boss cast into it where the actuator arm bolts which only allows you to really have that brack in one position if you want to use all three OEM bolts and the OEM bracket. If needed I have no problem modding the heck out of everything, but if I can just spend a few dollars and buy a new turbo that will almost just bolt on, I would rather do that.

Anyone with extensive Garrett and TDI experience have any suggestions?

Other than that, the original TDI sedan (Silver) is stripped to nothing now. Getting the engine wiring harness out of the car without cutting anything was a ton of work. I plan on laying it alongside the T4 van wiring, making a new diagram and building the new harness on the floor so it lines up just like the old one but with the more modern EDC-15 ECU. We'll see how that goes.

It's funny, swapping the vehicle from an automatic to a manual (the wagon this is all going into) is going to be such a small part of this project, I probably will barely touch on the subject... even though there are entire threads on such conversions!

Dave

 

[winny]

Dear Dave,

First time poster here.
Although my goal is not to swap over an AEL into another C4, I do plan to put a VNT on my AEL C4

As for all kinds of vacuum conversations and somewhat obscure TDI turbo hybrids, Darkside developments is the number once choice on this side of the pond. If you are interested in getting not only the GTB2056, GTB2056 or GTB2260 but fitted on an custom stainless manifold, Ryan has promised to make a 5 cylinder version of this kit for me once I send him the template and you can piggy-back an order if you would like.

Nice project by the way! Once you swap over the engine, your blue C4 will be almost identical to mine.

 

[DangerBoy]

Well that may be a good option for me too, if I am going with a custom manifold I would want to run with a turbo that can be sourced here in north america in the event it blows up. I already have the more modern computer for the VNT control so really it is just a matter of getting the turbo situation sorted out. I was hoping to just reuse the stock exhaust manifold but I suppose if I wanted to go custom I could design one up here and get the guys out in the shop to whip it together.

I wonder how much the kit will be when he is finished? Shipping from there to here is absolutely unreal expensive so I may just be interested in the manifold... let me know how you make out with yours!

Thanks for commenting on your AEL project. It may seem crazy that I'm putting in this level of effort just to have a car that can be purchased cheap over there but I figure this way I can at least take a good look at each part as I put it back on the car... fewer surprises later on.

 

[DangerBoy]

Hey, I just saw Darkside developments sells a vacuum "push" actuator... does anyone know if that unit has the same displacment per psi of vacuum as the normal "pull" unit does?

Wow, I could really use one of those, with that mounted under my turbo I could just use the VNT20 I have now for the time being since the actuator was really the only major interferance. I figured since the 2.5L AHY had this turbo and ECU it may be very much a plug and play in terms of getting it running at least. I still have concerns about the IQ since the AEL has larger nozzles than the AHY but the injection pump runs at a lower pressure than the AHY does.

If darkside is willing to develop a great complete kit for the AEL that will have known performance values I will be interested in it for sure, even with the shipping.

 

[winny]

Well, as I understood it, the AEL quattro was not a popular choice/not imported to Canada, US and/or the UK so Dave @ darkside didn't have a huge pile of customers waiting for a 5 pot TDI kit. As for "car that can be purchased cheap over there", the diesel version of Audi 100/A6 actually costs money over here but since it is near identical to the 100 turbo quattro gasser which could be bought for peanuts, I considered paying Dave the peanut money to get a 100tq in the UK as template rather than me shipping half an engine to the UK. Turns out 100tq wasn't as popular in the UK as it was here. :-(
I have purchased a 100tq head, intake and exhaust manifold here which I plan to ship to him so i don't risk my stuff getting lost in transit.

Did you get hold if an AHY ECU? Is it 16 bit?

What is your goal with water injection?

 

[DangerBoy]

Yeah, no kidding on not many a 5 Cylinder TDI in these parts. I know of exactly zero of them around here besides mine.

I don't know if the EDC-15 is 16 bit or not, I looked through a little info on it and it didn't say wherever I looked. It can be flashed through the OBD port and supports VNT control so that's why I'm going with it. I figure with that and the turbo it'll bring that engine more in line with ALH response, with just another cylinder and therefore a bit more power potential.

My goal with water injection, especially in the case of my smart fortwo cdi was to drop my intake temperature and increase the amount of air (with the increased density) that is coming out of the turbo for long highway stints. As it is now I typically have to let off and let the intake temps drop due to the heat that gets built up. I'm confident water injection would completely solve this problem.

I just sent my exhaust manifold and turbine housing off to get ceramic coated for the same car. They are known to crack exhaust manifolds and since the one on the car now is cracked I felt the coating would at least help protect the spare one I have for when I mount it. It also will allow the heat to pass through the turbo and exhaust rather than get stored inside those metal parts and hopefully keep my temps lower. It will keep my engine bay temps lower that is for sure.

Still haven't got a "pushing" style actuator in hand yet, so the idea of adapting a GT2256V from a sprinter is still very much an option. I've read that getting replacement VNT actuators for the Borg Warner turbos is very difficult, so going with a Garrett setup will probably be best long term. I guess I just hope the AEL will still be very responsive to the GT2256V as compared to the GT2052V. I realize there will be a little more lag, anyone have feedback as to what I can expect? Expecially when compared to the K14 (I think) I have on there now? When I tore the car apart I found the wastegate actuator nipple was fractured so I don't even know how much boost it was makin when it was running before, but the car was very weak up top and not all that great anywhere in the RPM to be honest. Very dissapointing as compared to my ALH which was a surprise let me tell you.

If I can get a little more reponse and acceleration as an entire car than I had in my ALH Jetta/Golf with the AEL Quattro A6 (I know the AEL has more power but the car is heavier and has a much higher moment of enertia with all it's rotating parts), I would be pleased.

 

[winny]

Sigh! I wrote a long reply but it didn't take/all gone.
Oh well, here goes again.

Yes, it's a real shame that the C4 diesel and/or 10vt gasser (nearly identical to the AEL) was not sold in the US/all over the world. With the dollar being so low, the US is a good place to get aftermarket parts from, IF you have a C5 or 20vt C4. I suppose not many being imported to Canada either.

Also, there are several parts which differ from AEL FWD and AEL quattro except for the normal quattro parts so this makes it even more difficult. I'm seriously considering rebuilding the exhaust system to 10vt since the standard AEL quattro is a mix between V6 and 10vt with every part being special and hard to get. Same goes for the fuel tank and its connection. So much agonizing work before finding out that the normal petrol tank can be converted to the vaporware and super expensive diesel tank.

It should be 16-bit then. What hardware do you use to flash it and do you do your own maps?

Regarding "long highway stints", I had to look up stint but I'm still not sure what you mean. Like a long overtake of several cars at WOT and perhaps several gears at highway speeds? How much water do you need to inject and how much reduction in intake temperature did you achieve? Do you control the water injection from your normal MCU or do you have some kind of add-on system?

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the coating put you down? Do they do pistons as well?

As for responsive, how is it with your current K14? I have complete SDI performance under 2000 rpm. Yes, K14 is standard. 115 hp AAT came with K16 in the early version and later K14. All AEL's I have seen so far where K14.

Any updates on your project?

 

[lagas]

hello guys,

nice to see this project

ecu is 16-bits. I make engine swap from a6 2.5 tdi aat engine to audi 80 v6 quattro, and put on it t4 AHY injection. Make own wiring....

ecu you can read with obd, mmps, galleto, and alot of tools make it.
maps is different story hope start engine this week, left small thinks, oil, oil filter, and fuel pipes.

 

[DangerBoy]

Well I don't have any photos right now, though I suppose I could take some. Both cars are stripped down. In the case of the wagon, I really do mean stripped, there is almost nothing left on the car besides the doors. Both suspension subframes are off, steering, you name it.

Anyway, I'm a little stuck with wiring mostly because I can't seem to find a copy of the euro AEL quattro wiring diagram. The connector block stations on either side of the car allow you to tie into different harnesses but the pins don't all match and I want to make certain all is well before I start putting the car back together. I pulled the engine wiring harness from the TDI, and then I pulled the 2.8L engine harness from the gasser, as well as the harness for the automatic transmission. I have managed to source a copy of the wiring from the gasser, which gives me an idea of what each connector block is meant for and what each harness is intended for, but I'm not out of the woods yet. Does anyone here have a euro 2.5L TDI wiring diagram by any chance? Not easy to source around here!

I'm stuck wondering what I should replace while I have it all ripped apart and what I should just leave alone. Since I have everything off obviously I will save on labor but at this point I could probably spend enough to buy another car just replacing everything. At this point the AEL is getting new timing belts (It has two) with water pump and everything associated with that, and I ultrasonically cleaned the intake manifold. I picked up a large industrial ultrasonic and it worked well for that purpose.

As far as the EDC-15 stuff, I decided to hold on that until I have the car running. I figure just putting this car back together and working properly will be a challange enough, the ECU will be a small project in comparison. I did pick up an electric actuated VNT GT2260 from a Sprinter van that I'll be putting on this car later too. Hopefully I can just build an adapter plate to the existing exhaust manifold, we'll see when I get that far.

 

[lagas]

wiring you can find in auto data.

or if you need photo of papers ones, write me PM with you email, and I find some time and send to you.

 

[DangerBoy]

Just a quick update:

Well, I'm just about ready to put the AEL in the wagon now. I had to build a couple new wiring harnesses to make sure all will be well once I start trying to click things together. I added the adjustable headlight level wiring from my euro and the daytime running light system from the Canadian wagon. Because the wagon is fully loaded and was an automatic the wiring was completely different than the sedan's bare bones manual diesel trans wiring.

My main issue right now is the suspension. There is much more rust than I would like on virtually everything in the rear and I can't put it back on like that. I literally feel sick to my stomach when I think of how many hours and dollars I have into this project and looking at that isn't making me feel any better. I dragged out my sandblasting cabinet and started go though some of the parts and recoating them with a tough paint a local autobody shop recommended... then there is the issue of the brake lines that want to twist off rather than actually come apart properly. I have been applying heat and penetrant to them and managed to get one loose without damage. I'm torn between just putting on a bunch of new parts now or just trying to get the car back together.

All I know is this: Anyone that thinks they can just pick up an old AWD gasser and swap it out to a euro diesel and have it look professional and factory with everything working for next to no money is really being optimistic. I have no doubts my car will be beautiful once it is done but holy smokes is this a project and a half. I finally have my A6 service manual coming that covers the AEL, hopefully it will be here by tomorrow. I have had next to no information on this vehicle which mas made this also more challenging. When I built my girlfriends Golf MkIV I had the Bentley which made it a breeze. Getting the Bentley for a C4 with the TDI seems very challenging! If anyone has such a book I would be interested!

Before I put the engine in I figure I should swap out the timing belts so I'll probably be putting the engine in by this weekend. I did get the entire fuel system swapped over: Fuel tank, fuel lines, more fuel lines...

Oh, one other thing... if I were to do this again I would find a manual transmission car to start out with to do the swap. Having an auto first means the shifter location is a different stamped plate than the manual and in my case I drilled out the welds and removed it, pulled the plates from the manual and put them in, using stainless rivets and lots of shoe goo (I used this plenty in racing and it holds up to everything). It would have been easier if it was a manual trans already.

Then again, if I could go back before I started this project I would simply import a Euro AEL wagon or now that it's almost 2014 just get a Euro A4 quattro Wagon TDI that is loaded and just bring it over. It would be cheaper and of course next to no work at all. I know that isn't very "TDI swap" spirit but still some good advice for Canadians that want a diesel AWD car.

I hope everyone else's TDI projects are going well!!

Dave