1z problem. Enormous amounts of black smoke!

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
Hi folks

I have been experiencing some strange behaviour from my 1z engine. Its very random but seems to be increasing in frequency. When I boot it in second sometimes I have virtually zero power with enormous amounts of black smoke, so much that it leaves black trails on the road., then after a few seconds it clears. I have also notcied a general reduction in power under normal driving conditions.

My mods are as follows:

pp520s
De.cat
EGR delete
Custom Map
High flow air filter
FMIC
Water sprayer

I was thinking it could maybe a faulty MAF??

IF anyone has any ideas of what could be my problem I would be very glad of any info.

Thanks in advance.

Martyn
 

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
I have had a look for leaks but couldnt see anything obvious. IS there a better method in finding leaks rather than just 'looking'?
 

Spulen81

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2004
Location
Warners, NY
Yup pressurize the system and listen. Then use soapy water on all unions and look for bubbles. You can't really see a boost leak unless its really obvious.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
can be that timing piston is somehow stuck and timing keeps at tdc log hannel 4 while it does this
 

hatemi

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Location
Finland
TDI
Audi A6 4F 3.0TDI
Actually there have been quite few 1z engines with similar symptoms. We haven't found out the real reason for it but one hasn't done that since we changed the nozzles from 7 hole Race to DSS. There were minor mapping changes done in the process but none of those should affect. Its very strange behavior.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
can only be a timing issue I guess.. or boostleak, have you checkt if the crank timing pulley is still firmly secured onto the crank?
 

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
Hmm if it was a boost leak wouldnt it happen all the time? From the first time it did it two the second was about 2 weeks! Now it seems to be happening more often...twice in 10 minutes this morning.

I have a oiled air filter because no room for anything else, maybe a damaged/faulty MAF?

Martyn
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
usually faulthy maf limit too much fuel (they measure less air than actual), it's very uncommon that the output voltage is higher than normal.. I think it's easiest to just make some logs too see if there's anythign abnormal too on the moment it happens..
 

jollyGreenGiant

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Location
MA
TDI
03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
IMO I think what is happening through either just way too much fuel at a certain time or a combination of injectors popping at different times and the ECM's inability to adjust the timing to compensate for poorly balanced injectors, in other words too much fuel on certain injectors coupled with out of whack advance.

Either way, I used to get this if my car was cold and I gave it too much throttle. I'd really have to beat on it for this to happen, this was with RC3 and PP520's ( 1Z ).

What appears to happen is you are washing the rings and at least when this happened to me, I would literally have little or no compression, I would keep cranking it and eventually it would start to kick a little and finally I would get going, of course there would be a gigantic smoke cloud around me and I would hide out of embarrassment. Once this starts to happen and you let off the throttle, it was usually that misfire chugging feeling ( loss of 1 or 2 cylinders ) although as I wrote above, if really pushed I got into that all cylinder no compression scenario too. I never had much luck trying to drive through it, once it happens, shut it down and crank till you can get it running smoothly.

I can't get this to happen at all anymore, even if I try. I've had my injectors balanced professionally ( pilot and main phase ) since then.

Eh, hope that helps. Perhaps the reason why the ALH's don't get this might have something to do with the way the smooth running algorithm is applied within the ALH ( faster control loop ) and perhaps some kind of smoke map limits or something. It would take some logging under pretty harsh conditions to really figure it out, I personally don't want to beat on my 1Z that hard just to prove a point...
 
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Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
The nozzles have been in since April and this has only just started to happen over the past month, if it was due to unbalanced nozzles wouldnt it do it form day 1?
 

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
No but I will check that today. Looking at replacing my FMIC from a focus to a cooler from a L200 pickup today.
 

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
Right. Pressurized turbo piping NO leaks and crank not lose. Scratching my head now!
 

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
Update:

Had fault codes read yesterday.

The lift sensor on third injector showed a fault along with air intake temp. and engine temp.

Today started the car and had loads of black smoke which turned to WHITE smoke as i revved the engine!
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
It could be a combo of incorrect iq setting and fuel temp sensor or 3rd injector connection/wire faulty.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
I am thinking the fuel pump isn't responding to the changing fuel delivery timing requirements as it should.

In first gear you have less time operating at "full beans" due to balancing wheel spin and more rapid acceleration to the red line from a lower gear ratio.
In third gear the acceleration rate may be slow enough that the fuel pump might able to keep up with the changes in advance and volume as the ECU commands.
But second,...second gear may have just the combination of rapid enough acceleration for the ECU commands to come faster than the pump mechanicals can respond.

I have had similar issues with the 1Z, but only when the air temperature was very cold, the engine were started after sitting for hours at that cold temperature, and I tried to accelerate as if the engine were fully up to operating temperature of 90C, not stone cold at -25C.
Once this happened (first gear "full beans"), I'd have to shut off the engine, wait a few seconds for the pump internals to return to their spring loaded position, and only then could I re-start and even idle without the mis-firing and chugging.
I'd consider running a diesel fuel cleaner through the system to see if that helped your condition.
 

jollyGreenGiant

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Location
MA
TDI
03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
Lug_Nut said:
I am thinking the fuel pump isn't responding to the changing fuel delivery timing requirements as it should.

In first gear you have less time operating at "full beans" due to balancing wheel spin and more rapid acceleration to the red line from a lower gear ratio.
In third gear the acceleration rate may be slow enough that the fuel pump might able to keep up with the changes in advance and volume as the ECU commands.
But second,...second gear may have just the combination of rapid enough acceleration for the ECU commands to come faster than the pump mechanicals can respond.

I have had similar issues with the 1Z, but only when the air temperature was very cold, the engine were started after sitting for hours at that cold temperature, and I tried to accelerate as if the engine were fully up to operating temperature of 90C, not stone cold at -25C.
Once this happened (first gear "full beans"), I'd have to shut off the engine, wait a few seconds for the pump internals to return to their spring loaded position, and only then could I re-start and even idle without the mis-firing and chugging.
I'd consider running a diesel fuel cleaner through the system to see if that helped your condition.
Yes, I believe we are talking the same language Lug_Nut.

The only thing I have to add to the theory is that my 1Z had this happen while the original pump was on there with about ~200K on it and an OE replacement right thereafter, which has been on it since. I was able to duplicate it before and after the pump change. The plot thickens. I think there were some threads in the past that had touched on this topic but never really transpired. To be honest I was a little embarrassed to not have fixed it on my own 1Z.

It really think this is more a limitation of the earlier ECU's than anything. I surely welcome any further theories, I think the symptoms provided in the earlier threads provided by myself and Lug_Nut match, I think the OP has other problems...

The symptoms Lug_Nut and I are describing would occur on an otherwise nicely running TDI, correct mr. Lug_Nut?

It's a weird thing. I thought pumped up lifters ( oil pump relief stuck - seen it ) too causing the compression loss but I've never heard of an ALH having this happen and if the lifters were pumping up I would probably have some valve piston noise or something really bad, you know? The not that much clearance thing.

Well, I know enough now; and it's been hard let me tell you, but I just don't floor it to redline when the engines stone cold anymore... Not as much anyways... gotta make sure this bug is fixed, which I'm happy to report is and disturbingly enough I can't say what the actual fix was.
 

Little Pickle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Location
Spain
TDI
Seat Arosa 1z TDI 150bhp/320NM
Right this is getting wierder...

Warmer today..up about 10c from last drive, no mis-firing and the power is back!

This has me baffled.

Martyn
 
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mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
Ok my wild shot here:rolleyes: would be that your ip is one that came slightly advanced from the factory and that adding the slightly larger nozzles and chip combo has tipped the fueling maps over the edge when the colder weather arrives plus a defect with in the ecu..............its a lot of messing about but it can be done as i've had well over the 200whp with said same ecu but it would be made very much easier and with more drivability if one changed out the oe 1z ecu for the better AHU waste gate equivalent.
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
hatemi said:
Mojo: Did you have the crappy plastic ecu or 021AT aluminum?

Yep crapy plasic................but i sorted a later afn/ahu version for the new owner.:)
 

numbnuts

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
sunny brum uk
TDI
mk2 golf
Just to add my experience with the white smoke etc, i had went over all of my sensor plugs with dielecric grease and haven't had the issue since, and have been trying hard to make it happen for the last few days.:confused:
Probably just cursed it i bet:D
 
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