1988 audi 80 quattro to pd130

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Thanks Tomi. I bought the sensor from a company here called Aircraft Spruce, it's their 1/8" sensor (whitbread a member here on the forums posted his satisfaction with it).

I opened my Christmas presents this morning and let me say that my wife did an excellent job with the gift selection.



She made it herself, it's awesome. I asked her how she knew to put the red TDI letters (power), she said "well the car is maroon, so I made the letters red" :).

The old boot was actually an old black t-shirt that was ready to join the coals of garments past ;). This new one is pretty much the most awesome thing evar.

Jon
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Picture updates

Well here are some pictures that I said I would post on here.

Pictures of the grade 12.9 bolts and of them installed in the head.

Injector rocker arm bolts, OEM on right
M8X1.25X90mm 6mm allen headed bolt torqued to 44nm w/5w-30



Camshaft cap bolts
M6X1.00X54mm 5mm allen headed bolt torqued to 22nm w/5w-30



Installed in head




Now some more recent activities.

Intercooler piping ran and routed :D, I just ordered a race pipe, so as soon as that comes I'll have the map sensor boss welded onto it and the charge piping will be finished (I'm also going to paint the mild steel pipes too).


Here is the turbo intake pipe, It's from a 1.8t beetle with the quick connect cut off. I need to seal all the ports up on it permanently, but for now these temp plugs will do. (I will do a permanent fix before a hard run)

For those wondering, I'm not going to be running a maf sensor, so that k&n style filter won't damage it. I probably will be putting a better filtration device in the future though.

I filled up the power steering reservoir and checked it for leaks, so far it appears ok, but I can't pressurize it yet.

There is still a lot of small details that need wrapped up, but I'm feeling pretty good about how things are going.

Jon
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Some tuners are able to write the software to read and adjust the fueling totally based on the map sensor. From what I understand the maf sensor is used mainly for the egr and it's regulation, but I will not be having those systems. I havn't gotten the tune yet, but I'm saving up the funds for it.

I got all the gauges installed and mounted. I put them in one of those 3 pod holders on the a-pillar, it was one of those generic versions and doesn't fit very well or look very good, I tried to use a heat gun and customize it a little to fit better, but it doesn't look very good. It's functional though so I'll use it until a better solution is found. I put the boost gauge (0-30psi) up top, the egt gauge (0-1600F) in the middle, and oil pressure gauge (0-80psi) in the bottom spot.

With the oil pressure sender I put it in the oil galley plug in the back of the head kind of by the exhaust manifold. I might have to put some sort of heat shield between it and the manifold. I hooked up a mechanical gauge in the oem oil pressure sender's location and compaired the readings, there was about a 7psi difference (higher pressure at the filter housing) with cold oil and it got closer to the same (1-3psi differential) when the engine warmed up.

Jon
 

tomiisp

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Location
Slovakia, EU
TDI
1.9 TDI PD AWX
about that oil pressure sensor mounted in the plug in head, take care, there is usually lower oil pressure (about -0.5bar) than is in rest oil system (there is pressure limit valve between oil circuit and head).
Not remember what oil pressure gauge you have used, but Audi have dual oil pressure sensors, one part act as classic 0.3bar switch and second part as pressure sensor 0-5bar, this I have used and its mounted at oil filter bracket in original oil sensor mount hole.

MAF works as fuel injection quantity limiter(EGR and rest is secondary use), it limit fuel depend on airflow, you can simply change MAF map (aka smoke map) to ,,flat,, map (all values set to max. value), in this case your engine run like without MAF, but this have one problem, you still need have connected MAF sensor electrically, it is possible to turn off MAF in ECU at all but I dont know how yet :) In principle MAF is there only for controlling emissions(smoke) and for normal running of engine is useless :) without MAF=more smoke; no smoke=no fun :)

That engine management can be simplified like this :
- you put throttle to floor = 100% for ECU
- ECU looks in map: throttle vs injected quantity(IQ), for example map returns 40mg of fuel for 100%
- now ECU look in map: injected quantity vs required air quantity, ECU for example get here 1.3bar for 40mg
- now ECU have IQ and pressure, now it looks how must be turbo adjusted to produce this boost pressure, he get value and send this to N75 valve
now can be fuel injected BUT with a lot of smoke because turbo need some time to spin up and produce desired pressure (=amount of air to burn fuel at all), at this time MAF is in action, MAF is checking for income air flow to turbo and limit IQ to archive smoke at lowest level, when airflow raise to required amount (and turbo produce required boost) fuel can be injected at full amount.
Of course this is very simple description, there is a lot other values what affect this procedure like water temperature, air temperature(it affect density of air/air pressure/amount of air...),atmospheric pressure, rpm, real pressure in intake or need to be calculated (injection advance,required time of opened injector to inject requested amount of fuel, engine load..)
Of course EGR needs MAF also, there is checked how much air goes over MAF and compared with MAP vs IAT and calculated how much amount of fresh air can be replaced/filled with exhaust gases.
Take this as simple description for what is used MAF :)
 
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jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
I put the front bumper on it with all the trim pieces, I was a little concerned about fitment due to some modifications I made for the radiator/intercooler brackets, but everything fit good and looks right.

I received the race pipe from tdiparts/diparts, it looks good, i finished connecting it all together. I need to get the map sensor boss welded onto the race pipe, I'll do that on monday.

I took it for a short ride, about 1 mile and took it easy as there is no boost regulation as it is setup right now, but the low end torque seems pretty good.

I'll be getting it Mikel tuned too. It won't be a huge hp monster yet due to the 1749va turbo, but it's a start :).

Jon
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
I had my first boost regulated drive :). I received the race pipe and took it down to have the map sensor boss welded onto it. I had to extend the wiring to the sensor and then took it for a drive and made a couple of logs, they look pretty good, but I think that it is really holding the fueling back due to there not being a maf sensor, the highest I could get the egt to read was about 700F. That soon will change when it gets vwmikel tuned :D .

Jon
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
jjordan11 said:
I had my first boost regulated drive :). I received the race pipe and took it down to have the map sensor boss welded onto it. I had to extend the wiring to the sensor and then took it for a drive and made a couple of logs, they look pretty good, but I think that it is really holding the fueling back due to there not being a maf sensor, the highest I could get the egt to read was about 700F. That soon will change when it gets vwmikel tuned :D .

Jon
You should see that loader this week. :D
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Holy Crap!!!!

:D :D Well, I received the loader from vwmikel and sent him my file last night, he worked on it and sent me a modified file this morning. I got it loaded into the ecm and took it out. After warming it up I decided to give her a test and wow!!!! I can't imagine how it's going to be after I find a bigger turbo for this engine. All I can say is that it's definitely the fastest TDI in this part of Idaho that I have driven. Max EGT's were around 1200F and boost around 19psi, no smoke whatsoever. Mega props to vwmikel right now, I'm impressed.

Anybody that is thinking about this similar swap I would advise you to save your money for a TDI spec transmission. I took it for a drive at 60mph and the rpms were around 2700, definitely out of it's efficiency range. I need to start saving some money and contact Scott again :) .

I don't know if anybody wants to see it in action, if there is any demand I'll try to upload a video to youtube.

Jon
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Yeah, I'll have to agree about the torque. If/when I get a TDI spec trans I think it will be better. If I decided to go with a 01E TDI trans it could handle any amount of torque I could ever dream of throwing at it. My clutch (stock) is right at the verge of slipping, so with this setup (trans, turbo, & clutch) I'm maxed out.
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Well on tuesday morning I had a scare with the Audi. I accelerated rather aggressively and lit up all 4 tires then the car died and wouldn't restart. The previous day I had installed the alternator and didn't hook up the excite wire from the cluster as for some reason I had it in my mind that the ecm excited the alt. (I now know and won't forget that the cluster excites the alternator). Anyways when I reved the engine the alternator would self excite. I thought that there might have been a voltage spike that took out the ecm. I was checking all the signals that the ecm should receive and it got the 15 power, x-contact, and others. The ground ohmed out ok and the ecm wouldn't power up.

I called a couple people and sent out some e-mails in preparation of getting a new ecm delivered. I decided to re-check the car out, but instead of relying on my ohm meter I placed a small load on the ground terminals of the ecm's connector.

The harness/engine ground had come loose. Tightened it up and everything was good :). That was two days of depression that could have been avoided if I had put a star washer on that ground in the first place. And luckily I contacted Scott before he sent out another ECU.

Lesson learned, alternator hooked up correctly, and I'm back to enjoying the 80. So far I've put on about 200 miles on it and it's going great, I just hope it snows soon :D.

Jon
 

tomiisp

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Location
Slovakia, EU
TDI
1.9 TDI PD AWX
AWX not have 240mm stock clutch, AWX have 228mm clutch and 5-speed gearbox, AVF is the same engine as AWX, but have 240mm clutch because 6-speed gearbox.
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
I'm not sure which clutch I have. I will be upgrading the clutch when I replace the trans to a diesel spec. trans. I am still deciding between the 01A 5-speed and the 01E 6-speed, but one thing is for sure... It will have a very strong clutch, probably the clutch tdisynchro has in his Audi.

If I pull the engine or trans before then I'll measure it up.
 

tomiisp

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Location
Slovakia, EU
TDI
1.9 TDI PD AWX
there is some difference between 5 and 6-speed and they are some little painfull :)
Stock data:
AWX 96kW/285Nm,228mm clutch, 5speed gearbox
AVF 96kW/310Nm,240mm clutch,6speed gearbox
Difference between 5 & 6 speed gearbox components : different shifting mechanisms,different starter motor and of course complete clutch (flywheel,clutch plate,pressure plate)

Advantage of 6speed : more confortable, bigger clutch can hold more power at stock
Disadvantage of 6speed : only VW genuine gearbox oil (they are very sensitive to oil), dual-mass flywheel not have any single-mass alternative(!)

In short, 5speed have 228mm clutch and can be easily replaced by single-mass flywheel (from 1Z engine) and with good clutch plate can hold easily 400Nm, less malfunction ratio than 6speed gearbox.
6speed is more comfortable, but only dual-mass flywheel exists here.
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
jjordan11 said:
I'm not sure which clutch I have. I will be upgrading the clutch when I replace the trans to a diesel spec. trans. I am still deciding between the 01A 5-speed and the 01E 6-speed, but one thing is for sure... It will have a very strong clutch, probably the clutch tdisynchro has in his Audi.

If I pull the engine or trans before then I'll measure it up.
I've got a low buck clutch setup that TDIsyncro will be testing for me. It uses a used flywheel that has been modified to fit a 240mm clutch unit. It's about half the price of TDISyncro's ECS tuning unit. Southbend also have a nice single mass flywheel/clutch assy but it's still 228mm. I've got one of those on the shelf awaiting project 'W'.

Luckily between the 01E and the 01A you can re-use your 012 clutch setup. The axles, prop shaft, mounts, and shifter are 01E specific.

The 6 speed 01E offers lower gear ratios (numerically lower) than the 01A, and it's available with the 4.11 final drive. If I am remembering correctly the lowest 5th gear available on an 01A is a .67, the lowest 6th gear on an 01E is .56.

I believe the C4 TDI 01A comes with a 4.11, however I'm not sure if it has the B5 TDI 5th gear in it, I have not had much time to chase part numbers.

The stock flywheel on the AWX is dual mass. And there are 2 6 speeds, an 01E used in 2003/2004 and the 0A2 used 05 and up. Your engine was originally mated to a 5 speed FWD box that went to Nevada for a passat TDI conversion.
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Alright so along the lines of getting the higher speed rpms down it sounds like I have a couple of options. 01E 6-speed w/4.11 ring & pinion with axles, prop shaft (probably that 1 piece custom unit @ Scott's website), shifter, and custom mounts. 01A TDI 5-speed w/4.11 from the C4, but the 5th gear may be higher (numerically). 01A TDI 5-speed w/3.89 from a B5 with a different rear end to match the axle gear ratio. I've heard that a certain year of URQ might bolt in and still retain the rear locker.
My 80 has the 4.11 gears in it so the C4 would be the least work, but I'm wondering what the final drive ratio would end up as.

That flywheel/clutch setup sounds interesting, I'll have to give you a call soon. I'm thinking about selling my Jetta to fund some more madness :).
 
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Jonixins

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
RIX
TDI
Audi 80 B4
Hello, I like your project very much. Thats a great idea. I think you should consider 6 speed gearbox from audi C4 a6 quattro or S2/S4/S6.

Only I don't understand Why you did't use standart motor mounts from audi b4 tdi - they should have fitted those b3 holders perfectly.
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
Jonixins said:
Hello, I like your project very much. Thats a great idea. I think you should consider 6 speed gearbox from audi C4 a6 quattro or S2/S4/S6.

Only I don't understand Why you did't use standard motor mounts from audi b4 tdi - they should have fitted those b3 holders perfectly.
Or a 6 speed from a real TDI!

I think Jon covered the mounts in an earlier post.
 

Jonixins

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
RIX
TDI
Audi 80 B4
Yes, I ment about C4 tdi quattro, only forgot mentioning tdi :eek: . About mounts i haven't noticed.

anyway I like the project very much an I'll try to follow it.
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
That would have been nice to find some motor mounts that would have bolted up. Here in the States we didn't have that many options with TDI's in earlier Audi's. One of the main reasons I modified that driver's side mount too is that the larger AWX oil cooler hit the chassis mount. It really wasn't too bad to just modify though and so far it seems to be holding well with some very hard acceleration tests :D . I'll keep inspecting it to make sure the welds stay strong.

I'm going to be kind of out of commission with the Audi due to a blown turbo. It had been leaking oil from exhaust turbine and perhaps I didn't have the boost valve tightened down enough. Anyways I got the engine shut down before anything happened, so I'm looking for a bigger turbo.

Thanks for the interest :)

Jon
 

Jonixins

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
RIX
TDI
Audi 80 B4
Oh, you're right, forgot that you had almost only audi 90 with V6 engines.
I don't know how your roadworthiness tests (???), it allows custom made mounts? In most of EU countries it's forbidden, not without a specific projects.


What would be the option for turbo? Custom made exaust manifold with VNT20?
 
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