11mm injection timing erratic

[KanPanic]

Hey guys my pump isn't following the specified timing all that well. No leaks drives fine daily. It maybe leaking by the timing piston. My tuner says we won't be able to control boost with the injection timing so erratic.

Here's what I've got and what I've done:
11mm pump (car was originally an auto 80k'ish)
Static timing slightly advanced just a little over the blue line
R520 injectors set up by DBW
New fuel filter
Pressure relief vale repaired and still together.
Ran a can of Diesel Purge through it.

Here's some logs: I divided the N75 and Cold start values by 10 so they would plot better along the left side axes.

Has anyone had similar issues?
Has anyone solved this by any other means than replacing the pump?
Does anyone think a lift pump would help?

Thanks

 

[kooyajerms]

Quick and easy fix before we start blaming the 11mm pump (I hate blaming that expensive thing). Hopefully this works for you.

Check your 3rd injector line and the plug and harness are all unchaffed, and working perfectly. Check them with an ohm meter too if you know how to do that. I had strange issues with timing that tuners kept telling me to check on. And it was the 3rd injector line that was chaffed where I couldn't see it (further down the harness). After that. My timing would meet requested, I wouldn't get a random hard stumble at 3000rpm (like I would hit the rev limiter wall, IT's SCARY). At first we thought it was the case valve, but it was the wire.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3628450&postcount=342

From this

to this

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6474086621_c27195c344_z.jpg

 

[Jettadoor]

I have a similar thing happening with mine.

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Most of the time it is jumping a couple of tenths of a degree but when more advance is called for it retards quite a bit before catching up. Especially at start-up. Since higher fuel demands under acceleration cause it to retard I'm thinking internal pump pressure but then it is all over the place at idle as well so there is prolly something else the matter as well.

I'm going to start by checking the #3 injector wires as kooyajerms suggests, maybe put some grease in the connector like in the maf. I couldn't find resistance specs for the coil. Then I will check out the cold start injector and wiring. I've got a new fuel filter to put in as well, I don't know if that could affect it.

Beyond that, if it's something in the pump I'll leave it as is, unless there is a way to check and adjust primary pressure like on the 1.6TDs. I can't notice anything while driving and I don't have your need for precision control.

I scanned my son-in-law's father's 2012 Jetta and the two lines were glued together so between a brand new car and one with 250,000 miles on it there is normal wear and tear to consider in my case.

 

[JFettig]

Any updates on this?

A friend of mine is having the exact same issue as the OP, graph looks almost identical!

I swapped #3 injector bodies, checked the #3 wires on harness side back to the ECU, still same problem.
Everything to fix this problem except for a lift pump has been done.

Any ideas?

 

[brum]

I'm running 11mm pump with .240mm nozzles without lift pump and I don't have issues. So the pump should be able to run fine even without lift pump. Mine is putting up to 18 degree advance.

 

[dieseleux]

Change fuel!
I see one time a very bad quality fuel make ecu fault code and car run badly.




Dieseleux

 

[JFettig]

This car has fueled up at multiple stations.

I have also tried completely different sets of injectors(nozzles and bodies). Timing with smaller nozzles didn't cause as extreme of behavior but its still there.

 

[dieseleux]

2 other option if i thing the pump are good.

1-some trouble in electrical harness (like kooyajerm say)
2-trouble with timming belt system (crank pulley, parasite vibration at high rpm, tensioner)

If all are good, change pump for 10mm (easy to find and low cost) and see if the trouble gone.


Dieseleux

 

[JFettig]

Injector and harness for #3 have been checked and injectors have been changed.
Timing components are new with the 11mm(less than 10k on this), not sure about parasite vibrations from the harmonic balancer.

Pump was used. I do have a questionable 10mm. I'd love to hear back what the OP did to resolve his issue before installing it. My time for swapping pumps is limited.

 

[DPM]

might be worth pulling the timing solenoid and having a look at it; maybe trying another?

 

[JFettig]

might be worth pulling the timing solenoid and having a look at it; maybe trying another?

Thanks, that is something I considered but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for. I haven't read much on it, I'll look around and pull the one off my spare to see what I can learn before pulling it off the car.(seems like the pump might have to come off)

 

[brum]

This car has fueled up at multiple stations.

I have also tried completely different sets of injectors(nozzles and bodies). Timing with smaller nozzles didn't cause as extreme of behavior but its still there.

Did you tested the case (internal pump) pressure? AFAIK pump case pressure is responsible for the SOI. So I would bet that this there is either a problem with the pump case pressure or something wrong in the SOI control inside the pump.

 

[JFettig]

I haven't measured case pressure however the retaining ring in the case pressure relief valve has been welded in(similar to keystone mod)

 

[VWDAVID]

Try it with stock ecu. Maybe its your tuner.

 

[JFettig]

Stock timing on WARP7 nozzles is too much advance, It would probably behave even worse.
Also, I'm pretty sure that actual timing following requested is out of the tuners control.

 

[bhodgkiss]

Did this get sorted please? Mine is now less controlled at higher revs with r520's but was fine with stock nozzles previously. Hmmmm

 

[Mikkijayne]

Bump. Any more thoughts on this please? I'm having the same problem

The ecu isn't reporting any faults so I trust the #3 injector connection is fine. Timing gear is <3K old.

Also I sold my 10mm pump so I can't swap back.

 

[jabcok20]

I have 11mm hybrid, timing cylinder from renault and 11mm plungr from renault , camplatede110. I placed start of injection by clock not by vcds. Then i add shims into timing and when vcds shows better values i leave that. I have now 8,5 bar at iddle but i want set it a little higher and put 0,1-0,2 shims because timing is too quickly on 1500 -2000 when i accelerate. And always remember ori set up of timing shims.

 

[jabcok20]

I make logs today, i don;t have lift pump yet but i buy one ori pierburg less pressure/ here is my log , what do you think?
http://vaglog.rtnet.pl/zeejay83_126488.html

 

[Mikkijayne]

That looks far better than mine. Max deviation from specified is only 3.5 degrees,and mostly much less. Mine is as high as 8 off spec

 

[Mikkijayne]

By way of explanation, this is how fubar my injection timing is:

 

[bhodgkiss]

Not good are your nozzles calibrated?

 

[jabcok20]

for curious here is my log with lift pump.
http://vaglog.rtnet.pl/zeejay83_126626.html

so i know what wrong part in pump i have. I ust change cylinder of the timing because i have too little flow there. Mikki maybe you have wrong part there too? From what pump you have timing cylinder there? And do you have wobble in timing on idle?? If yes , you have wrong cylinder. I have too litlle and you have to big flow.
In my logs you see 60-65% on 4000rpm so isn't it too less for race520? pump pressure 8,5/10,5.

 

[Mikkijayne]

My pump is the standard AHH one (038130107J). I haven't opened it up. I do have 4-5 points wobble on idle yes.

What part is the timing cylinder? Can I swap it from a 10mm pump?

Ben - could you get a log of yours so I can see what a good one looks like please?

 

[jabcok20]

So if you have 11mm pump ori so i think you have right cylinder. It must be value 028 in rear side of cylinder, i have different too little so i must change mine to like yours.
Do you have pressure jump? If not I think it is problem with timing . Show % from your n108 logs when you accelerate from 1300-4500.
here is number from AHH so you have proper cylinder
2 463 370 028 I think i have bigger value than 028 in mine because 1z have 012, afn have 021. Mine is from french pump 11mm.

 

[bhodgkiss]

Will try and post something tonight for you

 

[bhodgkiss]

My timing seems fine? This is R520's, calibrated properly and 10mm pump

 

[JFettig]

seems fine but you could use more of it on that little 10mm

 

[bhodgkiss]

Hi Jon,

I could use more timing?? Confused

 

[JFettig]

whats so confusing about that? you can run 18-19 degrees on the 10mm pump if you have the fuel cranked up.