squeedle
Well-known member
I'm about to have my first UOA done along with my 40k mile service. I'm mostly just curious to check if there is fuel in the oil. Seems reasonable to me for $20.
10K Blackstone Oil Analysis
- Thread starter 03-246
- Start date
rhouse181
Active member
No forum (including this one) is perfect and completely free of misinformation / group think... You just may like a particular forum because the group think aligns with your own personal beliefs. BITOG is simply another resource for someone without experience reading UOAs to gain additional knowledge. The onus is on the researcher to determine whether the source of information is credible and substantiated.
Therein lies the difficulty with online forums...
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Bob_Fout
Oil Wanker
I misread this as "seaweed contamination"
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
If seaweed is in the sump, it tends to clog the little sample tube. Those tubes are sooo small...I misread this as "seaweed contamination"
If you're sticking with the manufacturers recommended change intervals, the main reason for oil analysis is to detect abnormal contamination from coolant, fuel or dirt ingestion. It's also possible to catch abnormal wear patterns developing early, as we've seen multiple times with the PD engines. Specifically with regards to the latest TDI engines there are examples that show the VW 507.00 oils being severely depleted in 10,000 miles. These specific vehicles could probably benefit from reducing their oil change intervals by 20%-25%.
Aside from periodically tearing down the engine, doing an occasional oil analysis can be very beneficia -l if you understand how to interpret the results....
TS
Aside from periodically tearing down the engine, doing an occasional oil analysis can be very beneficia -l if you understand how to interpret the results....
TS
03-246
Well-known member
Still trying to follow the prescribed VW maintenance schedule but the latest oil analysis appears to confirm my original suspicions...10K is just too far to take an oil change based on our current climate, driving conditions, etc. Aluminum numbers are off the charts..iron is also quite high. Now that we are done with the freebie 30k maintenance I think I'll use same oil/filter but change at 5k. $80 - $100 extra per year seems like a small price to pay for engine longevity. Anyone else get similar results from their 10k oil analysis?
Just my .02c, high numbers on a UOA aren't necessarily an indication of an imminent failure, but in some cases they are. There was a guy who's Nissan Titan UOAs came back with ridiculously high iron numbers, he kept running to the dealer and telling them something was wrong. Of course they did nothing because it ran fine, he shortened his OCIs-the numbers didn't change. After his warranty expired his cams wore to such a degree that his truck wouldn't run properly and they had to be replaced, luckily he kept all of his UOAs and Nissan paid up-and replaced the whole engine. So my advice, shorten your OCIs-keep doing UOAs and keep the records, and if anything happens after your warranty expires-hopefully they will help you when you go to fight VW. Im not discounting anyone else's experience on here, but in the long run-we can only offer advice, none of us will give you money to make repairs!
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tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
At 25k miles, did a 5k analysis. Aluminum was 70. Blackstone recommended changing the oil in another 2k miles (7k interval, if numbers stayed the same).
Edit: TBN was 2.0
Edit: TBN was 2.0
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Riflesmith
Veteran Member
Not suggesting I know for sure, but consider this: The Passat with SCR has reduced levels of EGR. The engine is allowed to operate more efficiently, which results in NOx(and better fuel economy). The NOx is, of course, removed by the SCR in the exhaust system. NOx is also an acid gas. NOx blown past the piston rings into the crankcase is combining with H2O in the intake air and the H2O from combustion of the hydrogen portion of the fuel to make acids. These acids would not be as prevalent in engines without an SCR that require much higher levels of EGR to prevent NOx formation during combustion.
TBN depletion IS a big deal and should never be disregarded. There are other sources of crankcase acids besides sulfur content in fuel.
03-246,
The elevated levels of Al and Cr may indicate an issue with one or more of the piston rings and the associated pistons. It's possible you have a broken or misaligned piston ring that is grinding on the piston groove and or "lands". I'm not sure going to a shorter change interval is going to help. This wear signature doesn't indicate corrosion, the silicon is very low; the soot (solids) is very low. None of those appears to be a potential root cause for what we're seeing here.
Since you're under warranty and have been servicing the vehicle according to VW's schedule, I'd have the dealer look at this. Show these analyses to the service manager and ask them to do a compression test.
It really looks to me like something is binding up with one or more of the piston assembles.
The increase in Fe could be coming from abrasion of one of the cylinder walls too.
TS
The elevated levels of Al and Cr may indicate an issue with one or more of the piston rings and the associated pistons. It's possible you have a broken or misaligned piston ring that is grinding on the piston groove and or "lands". I'm not sure going to a shorter change interval is going to help. This wear signature doesn't indicate corrosion, the silicon is very low; the soot (solids) is very low. None of those appears to be a potential root cause for what we're seeing here.
Since you're under warranty and have been servicing the vehicle according to VW's schedule, I'd have the dealer look at this. Show these analyses to the service manager and ask them to do a compression test.
It really looks to me like something is binding up with one or more of the piston assembles.
The increase in Fe could be coming from abrasion of one of the cylinder walls too.
TS
As if a person is going to tear open their engine anyway if "this wear metal" or "that wear metal" spikes in their oil sample.
Unless you strip an engine down between oil changes and sanitize it (parts per million sanitize it) you are carrying over parts per million "contamination" into the fresh oil.
These oil "labs" have a good racket going with this $tuff.
Unless you strip an engine down between oil changes and sanitize it (parts per million sanitize it) you are carrying over parts per million "contamination" into the fresh oil.
These oil "labs" have a good racket going with this $tuff.
banshee365
Veteran Member
So is it safe to say that 10,000 is too long for the OCI? I have just over 8,000 miles on a '13 Passat. I wanted to change the oil at 5K on the new engine but talked myself out of it after reading on this board on how bad changing too early is and how 10,000 is nothing on this 507 oil.
So what's the deal? I sort of wished I changed it at 5,000.
So what's the deal? I sort of wished I changed it at 5,000.
You do what you think is best for your car. If you can afford to change it more often, then do it.
I used Delvac 1 in the 2011 JSW I had for 40k. Al and Fe were about 1/3 of those using 507.00 TBN was always around 3 at 10K.
banshee365
Veteran Member
Being able to afford it is not a factor. Maintaining my vehicles is nearly the same priority as paying my bills.
I want to know what is best for the engine. Some on this board are so die-hard to support running the 10k OCI's then some info like this come's along showing the oil shot at less than 10k.
Which is it? Are 5k OCI's more reasonable?
Banshee,
It depends entirely on the severity of your driving conditions. Worse case is short trip driving in very cold weather, or running the engine under high temp, high load conditions (For example, lots of mountain driving in hot weather, especially if you're towing a load.)
If you have a relatively long commute (> 20 miles), and the engine doesn't see a lot of cold starts or short trips, the 10k interval is fine. Use your best judgement....
It depends entirely on the severity of your driving conditions. Worse case is short trip driving in very cold weather, or running the engine under high temp, high load conditions (For example, lots of mountain driving in hot weather, especially if you're towing a load.)
If you have a relatively long commute (> 20 miles), and the engine doesn't see a lot of cold starts or short trips, the 10k interval is fine. Use your best judgement....
quadrun1
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2010
- Location
- Fairfield County, CT
- TDI
- past: 2013 Passat TDI SE 6M, 2010 Jetta TDI DSG
Is Delvac 1 safe for the catalysts/emissions equipment in a 2011 JSW??
The CJ-4/SM or SN, HD diesel oils have ~ 65% more sulfated ash than a VW 504/507 oil (1.0%, vs 0.6%). So your DPF would tend to plug that much faster - assuming comparable rates of oil consumption. Using a simple ratio, you have 10/6 the ash level. So you'd expect the DPF to go 6/10, or 60% as long before it needs service.
The 2.0L, TDI engines show significantly higher wear rates than earlier engine variants. But I expect this is due to differences in design & metallurgy. The wear pattern does seem to stabilize once you have 50k on the engine.
The 2.0L, TDI engines show significantly higher wear rates than earlier engine variants. But I expect this is due to differences in design & metallurgy. The wear pattern does seem to stabilize once you have 50k on the engine.
If it were mine, and the analysis showed the TBN was 0-Id do a 5k OCI and test it to see the numbers. If the oil still showed good TBN, Id extend it with the next OCI to 7500. I know some are fanatics about the 10k change, but look at it from VWs perspective-free oil changes every 3-5k for 3 years would cost them more. In Europe their OCIs are a lot longer, up to 15k in some instances. All that said, its YOUR car-Id go with 5k and work your way up.
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
Relatively higher wear product concentrations in 10k lube oil does not mean that the rate of generation was caused by some inadequacy of the oil. The rate might be constant through the sump load life, so more frequent changes might not change the wear rate at all.
These engines have lots of things the old ALH's did not, e.g., intake cam lash supressor, damp intercooler interiors, post-DPF EGR, balance shafts, twice as many valves, an extra cam, etc. Lots of sources of submicron metallic particles, reduced or in compounds. So just because the al and fe numbers are higher than an ALH, that does not mean the engine is eating itself prematurely.
These engines have lots of things the old ALH's did not, e.g., intake cam lash supressor, damp intercooler interiors, post-DPF EGR, balance shafts, twice as many valves, an extra cam, etc. Lots of sources of submicron metallic particles, reduced or in compounds. So just because the al and fe numbers are higher than an ALH, that does not mean the engine is eating itself prematurely.
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banshee365
Veteran Member
Thanks for the info. I only have 9k on my car. I havn't had the chance to even do a UOA if I wanted to. I'm already past the 5k that I would have normally changed my oil but was persuaded by the "10k OCI or you're wear will severely increase" club. This is the most crucial 10k miles this engine will ever have and I'm already almost there but on the original oil. I could care less about the free oil changes and would have changed at 5k at my expense no problem. I would really like for there to be a cut and dry recommendation as whether to follow VW's recommendation, run shorter OCI's, or maybe a hybrid like the PD had with a 5k oil change for the first then 10k after that.
tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
banshee: Pull some oil to be analyzed. It's simple, Blackstone has very quick turnaround. You'll then know the condition of your oil.
banshee365
Veteran Member
I don't vacuum from the top. I never bought the equipment for that. I always drain from the bottom. Maybe I'll have the tech take a sample in 1k miles. The car is only driven around 10-12k per year. At that rate I may do oil samples every oil change on this car.
Diesl
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2012
- Location
- Chicago
- TDI
- '78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
My local Ace Hardware had all kinds of plastic tubing, and the thinnest was a fuel-resistant (according to the label) slightly reddish-transparent line. I was able to thread that onto a syringe and take a sample that way. I had to disconnect, empty, and then reconnect the syringe several times. You want to almost fill the Blackstone container (which I didn't, and that's why they couldn't do the fuel contamination analysis part).
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banshee365
Veteran Member
I thought about that but I think that would affect the purity of your sample. For instance, I spoke with someone who measured parts of paint with a syringe and ended up with terrible blisters all over the place. It as determined that the release agent or oils from the rubber stopper contaminated the paint in a HUGE way.
As far as the TBN, I'm wandering if the Castrol LL03 is part of the problem. I found a VOA of the oil with a virgin TBN of 5.6. Seems a bit low.
As far as the TBN, I'm wandering if the Castrol LL03 is part of the problem. I found a VOA of the oil with a virgin TBN of 5.6. Seems a bit low.
You can buy an oil analysis sample pump and 25' of high temp tubing from a number of companies including Oil Analyzers. I've owned one for years and you can take a used oil sample wearing a suit without making a mess. I've done it for a friend in the parking lot after work. This will allow you to test before 10k if you'd like without removing much oil from the sump.
Ski,
I'd agree with you about the wear rates and what's "normal" for these latest engines. There haven't been that many analyses from the latest Passat engines posted. So it's hard to evaluate how the VW 507 oils hold up in them. The Jetta and Golf are doing fine with the 10k interval, with only a few exceptions. If you investigate further you can put this down to severe service, driving conditions.
Ski,
I'd agree with you about the wear rates and what's "normal" for these latest engines. There haven't been that many analyses from the latest Passat engines posted. So it's hard to evaluate how the VW 507 oils hold up in them. The Jetta and Golf are doing fine with the 10k interval, with only a few exceptions. If you investigate further you can put this down to severe service, driving conditions.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/garage-accessories/oil-analysis-pump/
The pump I've used for years...you can buy high temp, replacement tubing easily. It's basically like refrigerator icemaker tubing.
TS
The pump I've used for years...you can buy high temp, replacement tubing easily. It's basically like refrigerator icemaker tubing.
TS
I don't believe the speculation that using a higher ash CJ4 HDEO will shorten the lifespan of the DPF by 40%. From 0.6% to 1% is an additional ~3.5g of sulfated ash per L and in a new engine that does not burn oil through worn rings but only sees the normal crankcase vapour routed into the intake, the majority of the oil remains in the pan and never makes its way to the exhaust. It's a soot trap, not a scientific instrument as you would believe some tend to think.
Either way, I was willing to risk it for all around better wear numbers on factory OCIs.
Either way, I was willing to risk it for all around better wear numbers on factory OCIs.
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tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
Bannister: Tested in July 2012? Have you submitted a subsequent test to Blackstone?
Check your ash load. If it shows the typical 1ml/1k miles, this might help back up your own "speculation" that a 40% increase in sulfated ash does no harm to the DPF.
It might have been interesting to see what your ash load was before you changed to the Delvac.
Check your ash load. If it shows the typical 1ml/1k miles, this might help back up your own "speculation" that a 40% increase in sulfated ash does no harm to the DPF.
It might have been interesting to see what your ash load was before you changed to the Delvac.
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
I'm with Bannister. If engine does not use oil, then the higher ash content of the CJ4 oil does not seem relevant. Only matters if it is burned and goes through dpf. And those UOA numbers look great. And who knows, the 1% ash is a max limit, actual number might be less.