1.2 / 1.4 TDI specs?

[TurbinePower]

So, I have a thought, a concept burning in my mind, that I'd like to take some time to see if it's even feasible (not financially, but in a "pull your hair out until you're bald" kind of feasibility) thing before I go bothering an importer.

I have this Dasher, see. She needs a full restoration to really get on the road, which gives me a remarkable opportunity to... modernize. Remarkably rust free, unhacked into, just with a sadly dead 1.5D and a well-beaten transmission. I'd like to make it one of the cleanest 30-year-old cars on the road when she's done.

I know that the early TDIs with the outrider type waterpumps are essentially drop in replacements for the early 4-cylinder watercooled engines, sans wiring. But I'd like to know more about these three cylinder engines.

I imagine, since they're pump-in-block PD engines, they do not share any kind of mounting points with the earlier block design. Does anyone know if they share their mounting points in common with any of the engines that are available in the US, perhaps the PD engines available here? Or some of the later 1.8T or 2.0 engines?

 

[Scott_DeWitt]

I'd bet money that the 1.4 will bolt up to any 1.9 transmission, however the 1.2 is in it's own, as it has a different transmission and bolt pattern.

The rest of the mountings will likely be custom.

 

[TurbinePower]

I'd bet money that the 1.4 will bolt up to any 1.9 transmission, however the 1.2 is in it's own, as it has a different transmission and bolt pattern.

The rest of the mountings will likely be custom.

Ah, I didn't realize that the 1.2 was off in its own little world. Scrap that, I can handle custom engine mounts or an adapter plate, but not both!

I know a gentleman with experience putting later 1.8T engines into older FWD VWs and Audis of the longitudinal variety; does the 1.4 share its mount bolting points with those engines?

The 1.4 seems to share a borexstroke with the 1.9TDI, if I'm reading these search results properly: both engines have a 79.5mm bore and a 95.5mm stroke. So, hopefully I could use US spec PD parts like pistons, injectors, rods and lifters? Thinking long term, as I plan on keeping these particular three VWs around for a long time to come.

 

[TurbinePower]

Figure I'll bump an old thread, since I never found an answer to my question of parts interchangeability between the US spec 1.9 PD engines and the Euro-sourced 1.4 PD.

The vehicle that the engine's going to go in has changed as a coworker and I are rebuilding the Dasher to replace his truck, but I'd like to put a three cylinder into my Fox wagon. That would free up a lot of engine bay room, allow me to run front mount radiators and intercoolers, and plenty of space for accessories and belts.

 

[TurbinePower]

Also, on a different note, anyone have the different specs for the rods and pistons on the 1.2 TDI? I know they're 76.5 bore, but what about things like rod length and crown height?

I have a crazy notion here. If I take a hydraulic 1.6 block and crank, a pump injected 1.9 TDI head, pump, headgasket, computer and injectors, and four balanced 1.2 pistons and rods, could I possibly put them all together and have a 1.6 TDI once the ECU had been reflashed?

I know that there will probably need to be some block machining to put a crank position sensor in, Probably some other things... but would it even be possible to assemble such a beast?

 

[SeththeRuthless]

Well, a 1.6D has a 76.5x86.4 boreXstroke, the same as the 1.2TDI. With that being equal, I don't know how the rod journals on the crank match up or whether the rods are even the same length or the pistons have the same height (pin centerline to the top). The only difference between the 1.5D and 1.6D was 6.4mm of stroke, and they used the same rods, just different pistons, so it's possible there is a combo out there that could work.

With that being unknown, I don't think there is any way you're going to get a 1.9TDI head on a 1.6D block. The oil drain-back holes and coolant passages are completely different:
1.9 TDI head gasket: http://www.fcpgroton.com/images/products/large/VW19HeadSet1.JPG
1.6D Hydraulic head gasket: http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~mw105397/dubdoctor/parts_site/idi_images/headgasket-hyd-fiber.jpg

What are you looking for in this oddball combo? If you're looking specifically for 1.6L of displacement and moderate power you're much better off just getting a 1.6TD from a late 80's early 90's Jetta, Passat, etc. It would be a direct bolt-in and they made up to 80hp and 112 ft-lb in some intercooled European versions. A lot of the Jeep conversion guys use them and it can't be that hard to get over 100hp out of them.

VW also has a new 1.6TDI four-cylinder they're using in the new Polos and other EU models. It's just a de-stroked 1.9 (79.5x80.5) and has the latest common-rail injection, etc. It makes up to 114hp and 184 ft-lbs. It would probably be pretty difficult to get your hands on though, it being a Europe-only model and only used for the last year or so.

 

[TurbinePower]

Hmmmm... while I will readily give you that the head gaskets are significantly different, follow my logic for a moment.

The AAZ (1.9L 4-cylinder diesel, Canadian market here in North America) can freely give its head to a hydraulic lifter 1.6 engine. The AAZ's laminated metal headgasket is considered something of a performance upgrade for 1.6TDs.

While all the ports and passages on the AAZ headgasket don't line up perfectly with the 1.6TD block, you can modify said block to drill out the extra holes so they match perfectly.

With that, I have seen at least one AAZ that trashed its head (Was being used in a Land Rover application and something went awry) and rather than sourcing a new AAZ head from Canada (US resident owner) the individual proceeded to swap AAZ pistons for 1Z pistons, and put a 1Z head atop it. It's now an TDI with an AAZ block, crank and rods with 1Z pistons, head and pump.

Since you can swap with light modification the AAZ headgasket onto a 1.6 of the proper pedigree (I have an MF engine block, hydraulic and TD), and you can mount an early TDI head onto an AAZ block with apparently minimal to no modifications (there are people who have been sold TDI headgaskets under the guise of AAZ headgaskets, you can tell because they have no reinforcement for the precup area), I believe I can probably make the double leap from 1Z to MF.

It all comes down to whether the crown heights, pin diameters and/or rod big-end bearing sizes are compatible between the two.

I'm not completely averse to having custom rods manufactured, though that would be highly expensive.

What I'm after with a 1.6 TDI would be the electronic fueling control, the native VNT control, and the no-fuel-while-coasting capabilities of the TDI without the mandatory super-complex exhaust systems of a CR engine. The early TDIs (1Z, ALH (Right?)) were simple to control and retrofit but provide an enormous step up over the purely mechanical 1.6 engines.

 

[SeththeRuthless]

You're right, the 1.9TDI gasket I posted is for an ALH, and now looking again, I see that the AAZ, 1Z, and AHU gaskets: http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/images/gallery/d/3914-2/headgasket1zahu.jpg are very similar to the 1.6D and 1.6TD (ME, MF, and JR). The combination you're envisioning might just be possible. I think the timing belt and accessory drives and brackets should swap between the 1Z, AAZ and older 1.6TD.

This really does seem like an interesting project; I'd like to know if you ever start on it. I still wonder, though, if importing a 1.4 might be an easier proposition. They appear to just be a 3cyl version of the 1.9, so I imagine a lot of parts interchange and when you need parts that don't swap, it can't be that hard to have them shipped from the UK or something. I know people on this board are able to get europe-spec engines.

 

[SeththeRuthless]

Oh, one more thing. The 1Z and AHU TDI's used a WG turbo, not a VNT. It is possible to swap to a VNT unit though: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=241939

 

[TurbinePower]

Oh, one more thing. The 1Z and AHU TDI's used a WG turbo, not a VNT. It is possible to swap to a VNT unit though: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=241939

I'd remembered that, but wasn't the last of the VE pumped TDIs a VNT turbo engine? Run a computer and harness off that engine with the older head and even older block...

Or I can just follow the link.

 

[TurbinePower]

You're right, the 1.9TDI gasket I posted is for an ALH, and now looking again, I see that the AAZ, 1Z, and AHU gaskets: http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/images/gallery/d/3914-2/headgasket1zahu.jpg are very similar to the 1.6D and 1.6TD (ME, MF, and JR). The combination you're envisioning might just be possible. I think the timing belt and accessory drives and brackets should swap between the 1Z, AAZ and older 1.6TD.

Most of the things swap between AAZ and 1.6TD, though the timing belt on an AAZ is actually just a smidge longer than the timing belt on the MF engines due to the extra bit of block height to accommodate the longer crank throw. The method of adjusting timing on an AAZ is different from a MF engine, but since I'll be using the TDI pump which does not need to be statically timed in a similar manner (right?) I can probably run a 1.9 bracket and pulley without having to worry about dorking with the pulley's adjustments.

This really does seem like an interesting project; I'd like to know if you ever start on it. I still wonder, though, if importing a 1.4 might be an easier proposition. They appear to just be a 3cyl version of the 1.9, so I imagine a lot of parts interchange and when you need parts that don't swap, it can't be that hard to have them shipped from the UK or something. I know people on this board are able to get europe-spec engines.

The issue there, and that's the other alternative I'm debating, is that there is a lot more macro-fab work to be done to get the 3-cylinder to mount properly, then also to move the radiator and such. Since the Fox (which will be the home of whichever engine I end up with) is a longitudinal setup, I might have clearance issues with where the 3-cylinder exhaust manifold puts the turbo. With a four cylinder 1.6 I have available to me many more manifolds with which to try different combinations, and I know from experience a couple combos that work without clearancing required (From watching turbo Foxen being built).

I guess it's a matter of how I want to do it. With the 1.6 I'd have some major internal parts that would need to be overseas sourced (pistons and rods) while most of the head parts are available here, also injectors, computer and electronic parts, turbochargers, and so forth. All of it fits in the stock locations on the Fox, with no custom brackets or engine adapters to be made.

With the three cylinder I get my internal engine parts locally (pistons and cylinders), along with things like valves and probably/possibly injector nozzles (PD, right?). However major pieces like the head, crankshaft, camshaft (PD cams...) and so forth must be sourced overseas. I'd mention block, but I don't think those are common replacement items.

With the three cylinder I do get my extra radiator and intercooler space (with the concurrent cost of more fab work, of course, and custom hoses) as well as additional engine bay space in general, but possibly have to do some clearancing for the turbo, a fully custom exhaust downpipe, and of course the necessarily "three cylinder in a four cylinder's space" mount fabbing.

It's a decision I'll start making once I look at how much each route may cost me...