05 TDI Intercooler Fan

[BrianCT]

Not really worried about it, because in that kind of traffic you really don't need all of your HP either way.

When it really matters is you are running on the highway, full throttle.

I tend to disagree with you to a point but I understand your logic [though faltered].

City/Urban driving demands a lot on a diesel or any engine for that matter when operating a turbo charger. Please, take into consideration what an intercooler actually does for the turbocharger as your EGT's can reach easily into the very hot zone spinning that turbine 100 feet to 200 feet at a stretch light-2-light. It's not really about POWER, it's about maintaining proper power.

You have a fan that can draw air up to 4.5 miles per hour through a side mounted OEM intercooler at a stand still.

It's an advantage.
To maintain.
To maintain what you need to maintain.

All a plus.

Brian

 

[milehighassassin]

It's not needed. The money is better spent somewhere else, is all I am saying. I'm sure it helps, but way too expensive.


Also.... 4.5 MPH? That is all, hell the wind will more WAY more air around here.

 

[BrianCT]

It's not needed. The money is better spent somewhere else, is all I am saying. I'm sure it helps, but way too expensive.


Also.... 4.5 MPH? That is all, hell the wind will more WAY more air around here.

Have you filled your fuel tank lately? I paid $43.26 for 14 gallons of diesel today.

The fan can be bought for under $70USD. The work you can do in a GTG with simple tools. For the immediate you're capable of triggering the fan with a switch off the dash board directly.

I'd say that $120USD could get you a thermostat controlled trigging device and a fan with all the wiring included. Clean and to the point.

It's a far better cry then dropping $1,000USD on a front mount IC and the extra expensed of piping and rerouting adapteurs.

IMHO.
Brian

 

[baun]

instead of the tt vent i went the cheap route. i just cut slits in me stock wheel well and made it look like th tt one

 

[BrianCT]

instead of the tt vent i went the cheap route. i just cut slits in me stock wheel well and made it look like th tt one

Sharp dry-wall knife, 5 slits about 6" across and a paint HEAT gun, 2200W. Take a 6" dry-wall spatchela, apply heat as you push slits with spatchela. The slits melt slowly forward even with a ridge and form nicely.

Like budder [butter]

Brian

 

[Pelican18TQA4]

Having a fan stuck to the back of the intercooler can't be good for cooling airflow through the intercooler slats while the car is at speed. It's actually blocking a good portion of the cooling slats. I have no doubt that this would show nice air temp drops at very slow speeds or while stopped, but there's no way that it can flow more air through it at speed as can the factory one without any restrictions behind it.

 

[BrianCT]

Having a fan stuck to the back of the intercooler can't be good for cooling airflow through the intercooler slats while the car is at speed.

And what is attached to the back of your radiator, A/C Condenser? Do those two fans stop air flow at speed?

The intercooler fan actually turns non-[SIZE=-1][Parasitically] [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]as air flows at speeds. As the air passes over, through and around the intercooler at speeds you can see the fan turning like a wind propeller while air passes and glides without blockage. Once the heat builds and the sensor is triggered the fan kicks in and furthers the cooling.

Believe me, by September I will have a kit made that will hold a fan 2" from the surface of the intercooler [OEM] snug channeling hot air out and away when activated or spinning freely when it's not.

Brian
[/SIZE]

 

[milehighassassin]

Have you filled your fuel tank lately? I paid $43.26 for 14 gallons of diesel today.

The fan can be bought for under $70USD. The work you can do in a GTG with simple tools. For the immediate you're capable of triggering the fan with a switch off the dash board directly.

I'd say that $120USD could get you a thermostat controlled trigging device and a fan with all the wiring included. Clean and to the point.

It's a far better cry then dropping $1,000USD on a front mount IC and the extra expensed of piping and rerouting adapteurs.

IMHO.
Brian

Did you read the thread? He said under $200, which makes me think just a hair under $200. He will not make that $200 back in a year, maybe 2 if he lucky. If the gains are only in city driving, I'm not sure you will ever notice the difference in MPG gains. If you are talking about making a fan device, why not make your own FMIC? You can do it for around the $300 mark, 4 tops.

 

[BrianCT]

Did you read the thread? He said under $200, which makes me think just a hair under $200. He will not make that $200 back in a year, maybe 2 if he lucky.

I do not think that every improvement to engine efficiency should be calculated on a forecasted return on investment [ROI]. The intercooler fan actually is a means to assist longevity of the turbocharger and various related mechanics around the turbocharging system. It does not add any horsepower, it only maintains your ability to keep your horsepower under load conditions.

Think of it this way. You pull a trailer with a pickup truck. Does the owner of the pickup truck look at his return on investment for an auxiliary transmission and oil cooler for towing loads?

Answer: No. He buys the auxiliary transmission and oil cooler for perserving his motor and transmission during towing. He does not sit down and calculate that it's going to take him 9 years to make back his money on a more efficient operation during towing.

If the gains are only in city driving, I'm not sure you will ever notice the difference in MPG gains.

Again, my view-point is directed toward maintaining and assisting the longevity of the turbocharger and various mechanicals around the turbocharging system.

If you are talking about making a fan device, why not make your own FMIC? You can do it for around the $300 mark, 4 tops.

Why would I re-create a FMIC system when there are hundreds of engineers out there world-wide that produce FMIC for retail? I could do more harm then good winging a home grown system.

My points on the FMIC's system are clear. You're putting an IC-radiator in front of your existing engine and a/c radiators. It's sitting there in a row along with all the heat from those other two radiators and it also blocks a path to the needed engine radiator system. Other issues are the added piping, rerouting piping to and from the FMIC, the turbo lag from the extra plumbing air space in those systems and how much is too much?

I think what my points concerning an auxiliary Side-Mount OEM intercooler fan are

• A system that is already in place in free air flow away from engine heat

• A fan that only assists at moments the OEM SMIC can't under adnormal operations for budget minded individuals
  • • City stop and go
    • Uphill full power
    • Towing
    • Sprinted driving
    • Mildly chipped Sprinted driving
    • Easy of installation
    • Inexpensive system available on demand
    • Transparent leaving little complications
    • Anyone could install
    • No lag issues

 

[Driver_found]

I owned a Mazda 323 Turbo, and did the same thing. It worked very well. Adidtionally, I had a machinist buddy weld up a dual core intercooler using the original stock one, with another cheap stock one. End result was a big IC mounted in the OEM location (sort of), that allowed me to add about 3 more PSI boost, and the EGT temps stayed the same.

The fan I used was on a dash switch, and I just flicked it on when I wanted to really put my foot into it.

-Mike

 

[milehighassassin]

I don't see this fan helping out in lengthing the life of the turbo. An intercooler does not cool down the turbo ANY... It cools down the air charge entering the motor. Oil and or coolant is what keeps the turbo cool.


FMIC... Properly designed a FMIC is going to have very little noticable lag. Properly designed it is not going to block the air coming into the engine either. This has been done thousands of times. It is not rocket science. The hardest part is finding a quality core, there is a lot of junk on the market. Do some research and you will find them priced very well.

 

[hgeittmann]

I don't see this fan helping out in lengthing the life of the turbo. An intercooler does not cool down the turbo ANY... It cools down the air charge entering the motor. Oil and or coolant is what keeps the turbo cool.
quote]

Lower IAT's mean denser air, which means lower boost required to produce the requested MAF, which means the turbo is not working as hard to produce the same MAF, no?

 

[milehighassassin]

I don't see this fan helping out in lengthing the life of the turbo. An intercooler does not cool down the turbo ANY... It cools down the air charge entering the motor. Oil and or coolant is what keeps the turbo cool.

Lower IAT's mean denser air, which means lower boost required to produce the requested MAF, which means the turbo is not working as hard to produce the same MAF, no?

But in city driving (the only time this fan might help). It is not going to matter.

 

[kristifer]

What would one of these do? probably alot more in a short time, maybe like passing that a__hole on the freeway who thinks he should be in the fast lane at all times.

http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sc&cid=1

And for the turbo

http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=31

 

[SRV69]

FMIC kit

I hear a lot about the FMIC kit. Isn't this the one that goes for around $1000? Is it really worth it or should I be looking for a fan on my existing intercooler? Are there any other options because I would rather not spend lots of money for some fancy stainless or chrome pipe and put it rather toward functionality.

 

[BrianCT]

Is it really worth it or should I be looking for a fan on my existing intercooler?

Dunno.

A fan in front of the intercooler at stock side mount location can pull 600-780 cfm a minute. That's a lot of air. It's also a lot of air being drawn through a side mount OEM at times when no air is passing through a FMIC unit at stand-still.

When you're hot in a room do you raise the ceiling height of the room and widen the walls? Or do you just reach for a fan, switch it to HI and let the breeze cool you off?

That's just a question.

Brian

 

[SRV69]

I understand sorta what your saying. The analogy has some flaws though... For one the walls in the room are made out of aluminum which dissipates heat and its much colder outside than it is inside. More surface area for the intercooler will dump much more heat. You are correct if air sits around the intercooler than no matter what it wont be dumping as much heat. Has anyone tried and FMIC kit and had good results? if so what one, where did you get the parts? and how much did it cost to do piping and construct the entire thing?

 

[Googo]

And what is attached to the back of your radiator, A/C Condenser? Do those two fans stop air flow at speed?

The intercooler fan actually turns non-[SIZE=-1][Parasitically] [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]as air flows at speeds. As the air passes over, through and around the intercooler at speeds you can see the fan turning like a wind propeller while air passes and glides without blockage. Once the heat builds and the sensor is triggered the fan kicks in and furthers the cooling.

Believe me, by September I will have a kit made that will hold a fan 2" from the surface of the intercooler [OEM] snug channeling hot air out and away when activated or spinning freely when it's not.

Brian
[/SIZE]

The fan turns because it is inducing a pressure drop across the vanes as the air flows through it. Therefore it is parasitic since there is less of a drop in pressure across the radiator/intercooler meaning less air can flow through. Only thing I can really think is that perhaps there really is not alot of airflow through the smic to begin with even at speed and fan is spinning fast enough to either induce more air to flow through or fast enough to cause no pressure change. Would be nice if someone could get a flow meter of some sort behind the intercooler and see how much air flows at what speed comparing with/without a fan.

 

[BrianCT]

More surface area for the intercooler will dump much more heat.

I totally agree with this point and also agree with a FMIC system. What I do not agree with is a huge FMIC system sitting there when 1/2 of the year many of us experience really cold/wet/snowy weather.

You are correct if air sits around the intercooler than no matter what it wont be dumping as much heat. Has anyone tried and FMIC kit and had good results? if so what one, where did you get the parts? and how much did it cost to do piping and construct the entire thing?

Many have tried the FMIC systems and many have reported back really excellent results. Remember, the FMIC or any intercooler only maintains your horsepower and performance, it does not add horsepower.

For many of us out there who are not hugely chipped, hugely injectored, hugely modified its senseless to put a FMIC on a almost stock TDi. Why would someone drop $1,000 USD on a FMIC when they own a stock motor.

Okay, lets say you have a small crowd of club members here who have upgraded their injectors. Another crowd who upgraded their injectors and maybe are thinking about chipping?

What do they do? More fuel. Higher temps. Stock intercooler. Do we then dump $1,000 on a FMIC and all the plumbing just to get around the higher IAT's? Few add injectors and drive like grandma.

Don't think so.

But what if members for $100USD who are almost stock or mildly tuned add these fans to their OEM set-ups? The results would be a no-brainer. It's math. Logic of $100 vs. $1,000. Draw more air through a stock location when the need demands.

Another point to add. The New Beetle 2006 with the PD motors have come factory with the AudiTT slits in the right side fender wells. Has VAG been reading this forum?

A flow metre would be pretty ideal but I think doing dyno runs with and without the fan on an OEM set-up would give better indications. You'd have to do as many pulls on the dyno to show heat soak and drop in HP. Then ...same number of runs but clicking on the fan.

I spoke to Dick Shine of Shine Racing about this yesterday. He showed me several set-up using N02 sprayers, C02 sprayers, H20 sprayers... etc. I said why? Why not use an auxiliary fan behind the IC unit. He said no room. I said, "I'm talking side mount intercooler not FMIC."

Brian

 

[SRV69]

Thanks this is all really helpful. My thoughts now that I wont consider and FMIC or related kit until I find someone that was able to do it much cheaper than what is listed. I see a lot of intercoolers that are golf related some going for really low under $60. This leaves me with the idea that I either need to find someone who can bend piping and do a little welding... or find a muffler shop that will do the same but obviously much cheaper than $700.

I would really like to know if someone has tried something similar?

 

[Audiofyl]

muffler shops generally don't make mandrel bends which is what you'd want for a quality air flow setup. unless you purchase a set of mandrel bends with different angles and design it all yourself and just take it to a muffler place to weld it all up for you.

 

[djfourmoney]

My goodness there some dense people on the internet...

This trick is as old as side mount intercoolers are on a car.

This is trick normally employed by MR2 Turbo owners and its effective and it works. Its cheap mod anybody can do in an afternoon and is not a waste of cash.

If you think you don't have much air traveling through your side mount, you notice where the intecooler is located on MR2's?

FMIC is just eye candy. They work but aren't always better. My car suffers from HEAT SOAK in the stagging lanes at the strip with the factory installed front mount. So bad in fact, combined with running Cali 91 octane my car pulled MEGA timing and boost.

Even so its faster than 90% of the TDi's out there and I might end up installing a fan behind or maybe even in front of the intecooler.

Its a cheap and effective mod and it doesn't cost $200 to copy.

All your doing is keeping inlet temps down, why not a $100-120 fan setup? In my case its cheaper than a new W/I system I hav been eyeing to prevent lost of performance in hot weather.

Glad to see somebody using their noggin...

 

[mojogoes]

An MR2 and other rear/mid mounted engine are a different kettle of fish all together , and yes if an ic is getting very little in the way of air flow through it this can be considered a very good mod attaching a fan especially in slow/town traffic or while waiting for the start at the drag strip , but if your trying to say it will be more efficient than the correct sized large fmic then think again..........and yes there are some real To$$4$ on the net.

 

[scottab]

Having a fan stuck to the back of the intercooler can't be good for cooling airflow through the intercooler slats while the car is at speed. It's actually blocking a good portion of the cooling slats. I have no doubt that this would show nice air temp drops at very slow speeds or while stopped, but there's no way that it can flow more air through it at speed as can the factory one without any restrictions behind it.

The fan spins freely with no power applied.

 

[scottab]

I don't see this fan helping out in lengthing the life of the turbo. An intercooler does not cool down the turbo ANY... It cools down the air charge entering the motor. Oil and or coolant is what keeps the turbo cool.


FMIC... Properly designed a FMIC is going to have very little noticable lag. Properly designed it is not going to block the air coming into the engine either. This has been done thousands of times. It is not rocket science. The hardest part is finding a quality core, there is a lot of junk on the market. Do some research and you will find them priced very well.

Lower intake temp = Lower EGT = Lower overall turbo tempurature.

 

[pghPAtdi]

Hey Scottab,
any chance you have the p/n for the TT vent in the fender liner?

tks
Dave

 

[Audiofyl]

Lower intake temp = Lower EGT = Lower overall turbo tempurature.

so what you're saying is your egt ratings are lower when it's winter compared to summer? I find it quite difficult to believe that a 100 degree swing in the atmosphere would show up measureable on even an egt gauge.

 

[Slave2school]

It tis true. At least at work when we do an engine run you can tell the differences in the seasons with a turbo prop EGT, notably cooler in the winter and hotter in the summer. (There aren't usually too many hot starts in the dead of winter, for example). Cooler air in is cooler air out, no matter how you cut it even with our tiny little engines.

 

[scottab]

TT Fender well vent

Hey Scottab,
any chance you have the p/n for the TT vent in the fender liner?

tks
Dave

Here is the link for where I purchased mine from
http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=8N0821172B

 

[scottab]

so what you're saying is your egt ratings are lower when it's winter compared to summer? I find it quite difficult to believe that a 100 degree swing in the atmosphere would show up measureable on even an egt gauge.

Considering my EGT guage covers a range of 2500 degrees F` you are probably right. Does that mean there is no difference, or does that mean that my EGT guage does not register the difference?