04 Jetta. noisy exhaust, black smoke, LOW power... thoughts??

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
Hey Guys...

Want to say hi, been reading for a few months, went through the search feature but have not found too many concise answers to assist with this issue..

a little new to the TDI arena, but have been a general mechanic (no, not a parts swapper) for 15 or so yrs.) I have NEVER paid someone else to do our work..







ANYWAY...here's the lowdown.

04 Jetta TDI
5 speed auto (rebuilt)
242k miles (well maintained)

new turbo & timing belt, wheel bearings @ 200k (just before we bought it.)



About 3 weeks ago, my wife hit a recessed (about 3" down below the rd) sewer drain...

wasn't down on power then, but asked her to take it easy anyway till we got home...



checked it that day with the stethoscope, and did not hear any extaordinary noises up top, or in the bottom end... figured it might be exhaust (hit the sewer grate, and figured one of the joints POST turbo was loose...)



Fast forward to about 4 days ago (she's been commuting to school) Wifey complained about slow getting on the highway, and smoking a bit...


I took it for a ride, and it smokes like my Cummins :rolleyes:, and is WAY down on power (this has been gradual over the past couple weeks...)to the point of letting off on the throttle @ 40-45 to get it to lockup the converter on flat ground, as soon as you get back into the throttle to maintain speed, it will downshift again...

It still seems to spool well (although harder to hear over the exhaust leak.

I took the intake tube off the intake, and all the noise is coming from the intake side ( up through the EGR...) sounds amplified...so i'm wondering if it's a manifold leak??? EGR leak??

A REAL pain, BTW to get up there and diagnose things...

Would excessive smoke, loss of power, and exhaust noise be a pre-turbo leak??




THANKS for any thoughts, etc.

J
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
did some checking yesterday...feel no air leaks post turbo, and the noise sounds low from up top, towards the PS of engine, and up top from the bottom...

is it possible to have an intake manifold leak???

or a leaking EGR that would cause a huge pressure loss?



would this throw a code??? ( gotta get it on a reader..)
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
Pull the valve cover and see what the cam & lifters look like. I think it's really a turbo piping issue (check around the intercooler carefully) but the cams definitely should be looked at with any PD.
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
How about the upper boost tube...is it snapped into the intake?
yup. i made that mistake 2 weeks ago. was still doing diag. then....touched the accelerator to 2500, and it blew off..

what a racket from the EGR!!! :eek:


Pull the valve cover and see what the cam & lifters look like. I think it's really a turbo piping issue (check around the intercooler carefully) but the cams definitely should be looked at with any PD.
After reading some yesterday and today, it's the next thing after this!!

Which oil do you guys typically use? i've had great luck with 5W40 syn rotella in the Cummins. was thinking of using this... bout due for a change.

I think a 1-2 micron filter will be added soon :D:D my goal is 500k+






just read codes:

PO101 - Mass air flow(been there for a little bit, but neither mileage or performance suffered previously... cleaned it, code went away for 1000 miles.


explanation: air duct tube damaged

probable cause large vacuum leak on engine or faulty mass sensor



P2413 - EGR system performance

explanation: EGR faulty Vacuum regulator

probable cause: faulty EGR valve or blocked EGR passages





other 2 codes were PO128 and PO671 coolant temp below operating range ( i think this was from earlier this year, and never cleared...)
and

cylinder glow plug circuit #1. never had an issue starting even in 10 deg weather.



I'm going to take a video.

J
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
yikes. look for a broken egr pipe.
I was wondering the same thing, but MAN, it's not easy to get my XL mitts down there...

i was almost thinking manifold leak, but that doesn't make too much sense... although maybe possible..

can the egr pipes blow out if the connections? ( i see the 'gasket' of copper wire, or something....)





Sounds real healthy, huh? ugh.


Would this be the time to eliminate the EGR?? i was thinking of unbolting the EGR pipe that routes to the cooler, and make a blockoff plate out of scrap alum to test that theory....should i then just leave it in?? (concerned about throwing codes..)


J
 

greengeeker

Vendor
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Cambridge, MN
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS
An exhaust boost leak will leave a soot tracer. Grab your little mirror and just take a look at the two flex pipes behind there. You're looking for a crack in the bellows, not a separated joint. You could delete the EGR, but you WILL end up with a CEL and I think you should solve this issue first.

I wouldn't rule out a boost tube coming loose. Take a good look at all the snap in connections. They can be a little oily, but a lot of oil suggests a boost leak at that locations.
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
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04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
GG- thank you. I would prefer to solve the issue 1st... need to get the car running correctly again.

inspection mirror is ready to go.

how many bellows? 2? is this a common place for failure?

buy new, or used, or???



the only boost tube that signified anything remotely oily was at the connection to the plastic pipe near the PS fenderwell. was not loose, or moved that i could see, and that is NOT where the noise is emanating. nor do i feel anything @ 2k rpm. (helper, of course..)

thanks...more tomorrow.

J
 

streeker02

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May 12, 2008
Location
Halton Hills
TDI
2003 Golf TDI
cracked EGR flexpipe is a common problem, they're not usually that noisy in my experience....

did you try removing the airbox lid? if you can hear that noise through the intake (ie louder with the airbox open), that's not good....time to pull the valve cover off :(
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
G, after lookin at the video, looks like we might have a bad R side motor mount, perhaps??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ber08mvVII





we never drive it hard, but that needs some help 1st of all..

i'm gonna pressure test the intake side tomorrow.

Have you checked the cam????

That sounds exactly like a bad cam. The "bupping" noise is the back pressure due to the engine cannot breathe. This goes with the black smoke and MAF codes.

Pull the valve cover ASAP and carefully check all the cam lobes!!!
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
what do you guys use for a gasket? anything but the dealer supplied unit? i've often used great stuff.

but I do prefer a rubber gasket.

or is the old one of the reusable type??

J
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
cracked EGR flexpipe is a common problem, they're not usually that noisy in my experience....

did you try removing the airbox lid? if you can hear that noise through the intake (ie louder with the airbox open), that's not good....time to pull the valve cover off :(
maybe *slightly* louder...but not much.. more of a 'different' sound. turbo pulls hard....sucks thy hand right in....i would think the air has to go somewhere.

Have you checked the cam????

That sounds exactly like a bad cam. The "bupping" noise is the back pressure due to the engine cannot breathe. This goes with the black smoke and MAF codes.

Pull the valve cover ASAP and carefully check all the cam lobes!!!

what am i specifically looking for, just worn lobes? or scuff marks, rounding etc??
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
http://myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/multi/camshaftInspection.htm

Watch the video toward the end. It sounds exactly like your car.

hmm..yeah, a bit...cept the noise is coming from the back of the engine...not the intake.




Cam looks good (some superficial stuff from the pictures...) although i may not be looking closely enough..

should i take the fuel pump rocker shafts off, and take a closer look????



how do I upload pics to the site??? or would i have to use an online picture service?


I may have found the 'carbon tracing' after removing the EGR again (didn't notice it when i cleaned it last month...) and the valve cover...sounds about the right area...





How does the turbo attach to the exh manifold, btw??? :confused: i don't see a flange under there...

J
 

GR40RCapri

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Joined
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Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
GreenGeeker- Would this be the soot tracer your refering to?? ( i wiped a small spot off with my finger and some carb cleaner...)


just under the EGR...didn't notice it till the VC and EGR came off.... (never noticed it 2 weeks ago when i took the EGR off to look at the intake...as when this all started....


Now some of the cam... i was actually debating on putting the dial indicator on there to check runout, etc... what is the lift of the factory cam??

the lifters looked good, as much as i could see, and not cleaning them off all the way.



It looked to be in good shape, but obviously used...

I'd presume flat spots on the lobe is what i'm looking for?




Also, it looks like the manifold and turbo are installed as a unit? as the hot side of the turbo is cast into the manifold? :eek:

The turbo has been changed 40k ago...could they have not tightened the bolts properly, or enough???


Thanks all.

J
 

GR40RCapri

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Joined
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Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
Also,

tried the (crappy) search function...

any articles, ideas, or a how-to that someone has done previously on pressure testing the intake side of things??


I might try the exhaust too, just to help find the leak without listening to the engine, or having to worry bout the heat.
 

greengeeker

Vendor
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Feb 8, 2006
Location
Cambridge, MN
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS
GreenGeeker- Would this be the soot tracer your refering to?? ( i wiped a small spot off with my finger and some carb cleaner...)


just under the EGR...didn't notice it till the VC and EGR came off.... (never noticed it 2 weeks ago when i took the EGR off to look at the intake...as when this all started....
No that is not the location I was describing but based on your second comment it sounds like you might have found the problem. Do you still have the oring installed on your egr valve?
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
We need a better look at that cam (& lifters). That thing is bupping.

Look at the lobe tips. There is a chamfer between the two perpendicular planes of the lobe. It is small and it should go all the way around the lobe. There should be no sharp edge anywhere on that lobe.

You will want to be able to turn the engine over to see the different lobes at different angles.

Eagerly awaiting more photos...
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
No that is not the location I was describing but based on your second comment it sounds like you might have found the problem. Do you still have the oring installed on your egr valve?
I'm almost positive I do ( checking again....)


We need a better look at that cam (& lifters). That thing is bupping.

Look at the lobe tips. There is a chamfer between the two perpendicular planes of the lobe. It is small and it should go all the way around the lobe. There should be no sharp edge anywhere on that lobe.

You will want to be able to turn the engine over to see the different lobes at different angles.

Eagerly awaiting more photos...

'bupping'....is that a technical term? LOLOL! unless this is a VW community word...ugh.


How do i go about turning the motor over easily???


Also, it's just strangely coincidental that it happened just AFTER she hit a recessed sewer grate.....
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
Last edited:

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
Bupping was a term originally used to describe a PD cam failure by aNUT in this thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=225918

aNUT got the word from me as I had long ago used the word to describe the sound that my fuel delivery truck engine made. Here is a thread related to that:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=148086

the term is now widely used to describe late stage PD TDI cam/lifter failure

Gotcha....

the more i think about it, the more i want to think it's cam ( may be more $$, but seems easier than turbo... ugh.


did you ever get the truck figured out??

j
 

GR40RCapri

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Joined
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Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
you guys were right :hiding:...

cam 'tis SMOKED...

let the car sit for 3 days(let all the oil drain back...), and pulled the valve cover again.

exh on cyl 3 is through the top of the lifter, and the lifter to the far right of the engine ( exh on cyl one? or intake? ) is getting concave....

cam looks horrid on these 2 lobes...


next step...cam removal... can i do this without special tools??

then, where to buy the cam??

thanks all!!!

Jay
 

turbocharged798

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Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
I figured that you weren't looking at it correctly.

I knew instantly watching the vid that it had a bad cam.

IDparts has a BEW cam kit that includes everything you need.
 

GR40RCapri

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Location
MA
TDI
04 Jetta TDI 5spd auto
I figured that you weren't looking at it correctly.

I knew instantly watching the vid that it had a bad cam.

IDparts has a BEW cam kit that includes everything you need.

yep...the 1st time it was JUST shut down a few minutes earlier...so everything was covered in oil when i looked at it the 1st time.



IDParts?? a member??
 
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