03 Golf 1.9 purchasing opportunity...with broken timing belt

[VERCETTI]

Yeah I know another one of these.

I have the opportunity to purchase a 2003 Golf TDI with 78k original miles on original motor...carfax checks out. A mechanic got it as a trade in with some money for a repair on another car some years back. The mechanic told me it was in working condition and a friend was using it as his daily for a bit when the timing belt broke on it and had it towed back to his shop. He said he noticed the timing belt was broken and was going to continue to do inspection when he ordered the timing belt but he runs a busy shop and long story short the car never got worked on even though the timing belt has been on top the motor since then. I've probably seen the car sitting there for almost a year and a half. He said he will replace the timing belt and if any motor issues present he will fix them himself. He mentioned he would take it to the valves fixed and some other stuff. Hes asking for 4k USD for it. Body is in decent shape and the inside is pretty clean. Its kind of hard to negotiate with him at the moment because hes using the "45 mpg in this economy" argument in his favor but I was already thinking i was only gonna pay 3k cash only. Even less now that im reading about what happens to these cars when the timing belt breaks. Ill attach pictures.

If you guys can help me identify if this is an AHI as well please?

I feel like its a bad deal but how many cars have yall heard that are running fine to this day after something like this happens? I kind of want to repair the head myself and just lowball him because i know this kind of work is delicate.

https://volkswagenforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php?vin=9BWGP61J034073909

golf

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[BobnOH]

Sounds like you're educated enough to properly deal with this. Like you, I'd want to pay maybe a grand and fix it my ownself.
If he simply replaces the belt it might run fine, but likely it would manifest an issue in the first few months.
Having owned TDIs since 1999, my opinion is the "45 mpg in this economy" is all but insignificant. The cost of repair and maintenance more than offsets the savings on fuel. My partner has owned Hondas, a Gen.5 Accord and now a Gen.3 CR-V. Those things cost way less to operate.
A 2003 Golf, sold in North America is almost certainly an ALH. If you're not sure, just look at the motor, they are quite unique compared to the PDs, which have the injectors under the valve cover.

 

[VERCETTI]

Sounds like you're educated enough to properly deal with this. Like you, I'd want to pay maybe a grand and fix it my ownself.
If he simply replaces the belt it might run fine, but likely it would manifest an issue in the first few months.
Having owned TDIs since 1999, my opinion is the "45 mpg in this economy" is all but insignificant. The cost of repair and maintenance more than offsets the savings on fuel. My partner has owned Hondas, a Gen.5 Accord and now a Gen.3 CR-V. Those things cost way less to operate.
A 2003 Golf, sold in North America is almost certainly an ALH. If you're not sure, just look at the motor, they are quite unique compared to the PDs, which have the injectors under the valve cover.

yeah…its gonna be rough to get a car like for a grand in this economy. especially coming from someone ignorant when it comes to volks tdi who just sees the numbers on the dashboard and not the true meaning of anything else…

would you recommend me getting the head job done by him or someone else? do you know any resources that can help me with the head removal and installing and other things to look for while im doing this job?

 

[BobnOH]

I would recommend evaluating the head and related components. I once broke a belt at idle, big difference if it broke at highway speedsor under load, which you'll never know.
You said it's been sitting, leave it sit. $1000 is quite a bit for a not running car.
You wander into the Trust factor, most folks selling cars are less than honest. Just no way to know.
If I gave 4 grand for his repaired car, I'd want a one year warranty against future engine fail. Plus there are likely other issues.

 

[VERCETTI]

I would recommend evaluating the head and related components. I once broke a belt at idle, big difference if it broke at highway speedsor under load, which you'll never know.
You said it's been sitting, leave it sit. $1000 is quite a bit for a not running car.
You wander into the Trust factor, most folks selling cars are less than honest. Just no way to know.
If I gave 4 grand for his repaired car, I'd want a one year warranty against future engine fail. Plus there are likely other issues.

he’s actually a mechanic himself…he fixes almost every make of car from what ive seen. he said he would warranty his work and would sell me the car running of course. he said if something sounds bad with the motor he will fix it before he sells it to me. price would not change. other than that…the car looks fairly decent for its age.

i have to admit…when it comes to diagnosis anything inside the actual motor like this situation…i would be lying if i said i know what im looking at/what to look for. anything else im good with DIY my cars often from ac compressors to wheel bearings to sensors and a small but motors im curious about. seen some youtube videos about removing camshaft and what not and seems doable as far as taking it off and putting it back on but im not sure what im looking at.

such a good looking car…its a black golf too.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

"Timing belt just broke. Wants 4 grand".
LOL

if something sounds bad with the motor he will fix it before he sells it

LMAO.


IMO, wait for another one. "45 in this economy" is one thing, but the near future is uncertain. If supplies get severely pinched in the fall/winter, and diesel costs way more than unleaded, that's another thing altogether.

I agree with BobnOH. It's worth a gamble if you get it for a non-running price and try to fix it. But that mechanic won't go for that deal when he thinks he can get 4000 for installing a new belt and replacing a couple bent valves and giving it "the sound test".

 

[jmodge]

He hasn't fixed it in a year and a half, I wouldn't trust him to magically find the time now. Personally I would stay away from him and whatever "fix" he's going to do with it. Save your 4 grand toward something real.

 

[VERCETTI]

this one is gonna be hard to let go. i RARELY see any mk4 TDIs in texas and the ones i do they are super high milage and want more than what this guy is asking for

 

[VERCETTI]

I would recommend evaluating the head and related components. I once broke a belt at idle, big difference if it broke at highway speedsor under load, which you'll never know.
You said it's been sitting, leave it sit. $1000 is quite a bit for a not running car.
You wander into the Trust factor, most folks selling cars are less than honest. Just no way to know.
If I gave 4 grand for his repaired car, I'd want a one year warranty against future engine fail. Plus there are likely other issues.

could you elaborate on the head and related components?

do you think just buying a new head/rebuilt head would be sufficient to fix this issue barring the “components” are ok? do you recommend any reputable refurbished heads etc?

anybodys input is greatly appreciated

 

[Zak99b5]

If there was a timing belt “event,” the pistons hit the valves. No question.

Borsope in the glow plug hole to assess the piston tops. Pull the cam to inspect the lifters for cracking.

It’s possible that the car will run okay for a bit with a new belt, but in a few miles a fatigued valve could drop and trash the cylinder and piston.

It seems like you really want this to work out, but unless he gives you a year warranty on the motor, it’s a hard pass.

The mileage on the car seems tempting, but it’s still 20 years old. Plus miles don’t mean all that much on the ALH. Id buy a well-cared for one with 200k on it before this potential time bomb.

 

[Vince Waldon]

There's no way to know until the engine comes apart and things get carefully measured.

The bottom end often survives, but it requires careful measuring to confirm, and if a rod or two are bent the scope and costs to repair go way up.

The seller is in a conflict of interest; he's also the mechanic who will judge what's broken enough; "anything that sounds bad" is not a good sign.

This is not an instance for how things sound. And, the fact that he fixes all makes in models is probably a bug not a feature. Gasser repair rules don't always map into the VW diesel world.

If he (the mechanic) cuts corners on the fix down the road when a valve or rod he didn't replace finally lets go and grenades the block you'll likely be really challenged to go back to he (the seller) and get he (the mechanic) to repair it a second time.

The LAST mechanic I would trust when buying a used car would be the seller.... but just my opinion of course.

 

[VERCETTI]

There's no way to know until the engine comes apart and things get carefully measured.

The bottom end often survives, but it requires careful measuring to confirm, and if a rod or two are bent the scope and costs to repair go way up.

The seller is in a conflict of interest; he's also the mechanic who will judge what's broken enough; "anything that sounds bad" is not a good sign.

This is not an instance for how things sound. And, the fact that he fixes all makes in models is probably a bug not a feature. Gasser repair rules don't always map into the VW diesel world.

If he (the mechanic) cuts corners on the fix down the road when a valve or rod he didn't replace finally lets go and grenades the block you'll likely be really challenged to go back to he (the seller) and get he (the mechanic) to repair it a second time.

The LAST mechanic I would trust when buying a used car would be the seller.... but just my opinion of course.

“This is not an instance for how things sound. And, the fact that he fixes all makes in models is probably a bug not a feature. Gasser repair rules don't always map into the VW diesel world.”

my thoughts exactly. he might be a good gasser mechanic but diesel is a whole different ball game.

“If he (the mechanic) cuts corners on the fix down the road when a valve or rod he didn't replace finally lets go and grenades the block you'll likely be really challenged to go back to he (the seller) and get he (the mechanic) to repair it a second time.”

which is why im considering just letting him put the timing belt on (new one) and just try to get it for a much lower price and do the fix myself. some guidance is all i need.

 

[jmodge]

this one is gonna be hard to let go. i RARELY see any mk4 TDIs in texas and the ones i do they are super high milage and want more than what this guy is asking for

Mileage isn’t as relevant as you would think. Maintenance, history, and upgrades is what to pay attention to on these cars. They are engineered to be long lasting through the ability to replace wear parts. These cars are a hobbyist mobile, not really for the run of the mill car owners. You can screw yourself real easy by being too anxious

 

[jmodge]

which is why im considering just letting him put the timing belt on (new one) and just try to get it for a much lower price and do the fix myself. some guidance is all i need.

You are getting guidance, but I don’t think you’re buying into it

 

[VERCETTI]

You are getting guidance, but I don’t think you’re buying into it

you said it yourself; its a hobbyist vehicle. **** happens just like on this car. i really doubt im making the worst mistake every. i am buying somebody elses mess up that could be very costly but id be kicking myself more if i just didnt try.

i see a bunch of cylinder head sellers on google. im sure im not the only one who has encountered this issue. thanks for your input though.

 

[Vince Waldon]

which is why im considering just letting him put the timing belt on (new one) and just try to get it for a much lower price and do the fix myself. some guidance is all i need.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, but the time to fix whatever damage occurred due to the belt breaking is *before* the timing belt is installed. Timing belt installation is the *last* step.

Fixing things *after* the timing belt means pulling the new timing belt, rollers, and a bunch of single-use hardware off the engine in order to get to head and other parts that need to be removed, examined, measured, etc.

 

[Mongler98]

TLDR: PASS, car is only worth $600 max. don't get scammed.

i dont care what condition the car is in. if its not running and also more importantly if you think you can fix it, if it is not currently tagged aka not recently inspected and emission passed, the car is worth a few hundred bucks past scrap price. aka under a grand closer to 500 bucks MAX IF its in nice shape with new tires and what not.
do NOT get scammed into paying more than what its worth NOW. remember you make your money on deals when you buy, NOT when you sell.
unless the engine has been specked and the head is off and measured by a specialist , assume the engine is a total loss. so spending 4 grand on a pile of junk and putting another 2 grand into it is a break even. you would be lucky to sell this car for 5k running, maybe 6. your time is worth $ too.

 

[VERCETTI]

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, but the time to fix whatever damage occurred due to the belt breaking is *before* the timing belt is installed. Timing belt installation is the *last* step.

Fixing things *after* the timing belt means pulling the new timing belt, rollers, and a bunch of single-use hardware off the engine in order to get to head and other parts that need to be removed, examined, measured, etc.

i mean ideally i would like to hear the car running for a bit to see if any other issues dont arise, but i guess i should negotiate like it has all the issues in the world

 

[PakProtector]

I bought a not-running '02 with 172k miles for $2k and got waaaaaay lucky. I can't escape the idea I could do it again...lol That said, I have not...also LOL. Even now, a not runner with known serious damage is not an expensive car unless the buyer is a bonkers enthusiast. Fortunately I don't associate with such folks. Ever. (really LOL-ing now).

Go find out what its worst could be...ie likely two pistons, two rods, new bearings, a re-valved, rebuilt head with new cam and lifters( or maybe just new, black, nitrided INA lifters. Then see what it is really worth given a fair pile of your time getting it back together( forgot timing belt tools and VCDS to tune it once done ). I'd probably go $2k on the beast as is...but I am a bonkers enthusiast, and I have ALH engine parts in hand.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[Vince Waldon]

Very risky to run the car first... parts that are bent quickly become parts that break off and grenade the head and/or the block.

 

[VERCETTI]

Very risky to run the car first... parts that are bent quickly become parts that break off and grenade the head and/or the block.

i mean im reading posts that say that most dont fail again and really mess up the engine until 1,000-30,000 miles, where most damage becomes truly irreversible.

a lot of mixed information. thanks to everyone for the information. im gonna have to meditate a little before my next move.

 

[Mongler98]

i mean im reading posts that say that most dont fail again and really mess up the engine until 1,000-30,000 miles, where most damage becomes truly irreversible.

a lot of mixed information. thanks to everyone for the information. im gonna have to meditate a little before my next move.

whoever told you that is full of poo
if any damage is done in any way to any internal of any engine in any condition, it must NOT be run or rotated under anything other than hand energy until it is repaired correctly.
The car is a heap of scrap, plenty of them too. dont get scammed or waste your time.
offer $600 cash, as you need to transport it, so its going to cost you a grand just to start working on it. another grand to fix it, another to get it on the road. a $4k beater can be purchased running NOW with no major issues. so your time is worth $ too.

 

[VERCETTI]

whoever told you that is full of poo
if any damage is done in any way to any internal of any engine in any condition, it must NOT be run or rotated under anything other than hand energy until it is repaired correctly.
The car is a heap of scrap, plenty of them too. dont get scammed or waste your time.
offer $600 cash, as you need to transport it, so its going to cost you a grand just to start working on it. another grand to fix it, another to get it on the road. a $4k beater can be purchased running NOW with no major issues. so your time is worth $ too.

that information is on this same forum in history posts lol literally googling mk4 tdi 1.9 broken timing belt and a bunch of posts from tdiclub pop up

 

[VERCETTI]

thanks to everyone for your posts. hopefully i can post here again as a tdi owner some day!

 

[Mongler98]

not one capable person here who knows what there talking about would suggest you even try and start it knowing it had stressed valves or any internal damage. Not unless you are trying to damage things.
many people from 20 years ago might have said some stuff like that but not anyone who is worth listening to.

 

[peterdaniel]

It IS possible that it would run. BUT I promise you its a ticking time bomb. There is simply no way this engine has no internal damage. Mine broke before I bought it at 135K and it was running fine after the guy replaced the belt. I was suspicious. Pulled the valve cover and sure as sheet, two lifters had spider cracking.. Yep it was running perfect but it was getting ready to drop a couple of valves.

 

[VERCETTI]

It IS possible that it would run. BUT I promise you its a ticking time bomb. There is simply no way this engine has no internal damage. Mine broke before I bought it at 135K and it was running fine after the guy replaced the belt. I was suspicious. Pulled the valve cover and sure as sheet, two lifters had spider cracking.. Yep it was running perfect but it was getting ready to drop a couple of valves.

what did you do?

 

[jmodge]

what did you do?

Read posts 11 and 16 fully. They cover it well enough that you can look up the procedures

 

[Tdijarhead]

If the bottom end is undamaged “IF” then you’ll need at least to repair or replace the head. I saw you mention new heads were all over the internet. For the most part those are chinese heads which even though they are new will land you in the exact position that the car now has. A compromised head.

As has been pointed out a new or repaired head needs to be installed after the bottom end has been checked. Then after checking the pistons and installing a new or reconditioned head the timing belt goes on. Putting a belt on before those repairs and starting the engine will only make things worse or perhaps even destroy the engine completely by dropping valves. Here’s my daughters bug after a dropped valve. Apparently the previous owner had an issue that didn’t show up for about 30k miles.

ADCDD8BA-A6AB-4D36-B0CC-6A40CF1090EA

• Tdijarhead
• Apr 3, 2020

Idparts, metalmanparts, cascadegerman all have new heads. Franko6 is also a highly regarded member on this forum and he sells refurbished/new heads that by all accounts are better than the original. Don’t buy a chinese head and destroy the car if you decide to buy it.

Don’t pay more that $1-1500 for this car as is. Did you even mention if it was an auto or manual? If it’s an auto don’t even bother.

 

[PakProtector]

What I would like to see is the pile of similar cars to prove that the $600 suggestion is valid. IME, the $1500 is more like it. I'll take all that can be found at $1000 that match this one even slightly...

As it stands, do polish and de-rust-ify the pulleys or the belt is going to be unhappy wearing it off.

The auto/manual bit is not to be ignored. The conversion process is daunting for the un-initiated. Slightly costly...and IMO the auto is not worth the paper it is printed on.
cheers,
Douglas