02M users, please sound off

[TDI4evah]

I've got feedback from one real, live, person who wishes he hadn't traded his 02J for an 02M.

The two issues he's had are:

1) The third wavetrac LSD is failing, and wavetrac simply stopped supporting him after the second one died. (I'm asking about LSD's in a different thread)

2) He has to shift out of 6'th a lot more than is either desirable or expected.

He's got PP764 nozzles, a VNT-17 hybrid (not specified; I presume it's a 17/22), and a rocket chip stage2+.

I'm wondering if the need to shift is due to torque not ramping up until 2200-2400 RPM with the RC tune? The whole point of 6'th gear is to get RPM down to the low 2000's, which realistically means 70+. If the tune doesn't get up on the torque curve until 2400 you've got to be driving pretty fast to use it.

So, any 02M drivers, please relate your experience; tunes, torque, RPM range, and whether you'd do it over.

 

[02DslPwr]

One of the beauties of the 02M is the 5th gear. I have a tallest 5th you can put in an 02J and I really wish there was a gear in between my 4th and 5th. 2400 rpm in 5th is about 80mph. 4th redlines at ~90mph iirc, so there a huge gap there. The 6th gear, if similar to my tall 5th, is really only good for cruising. If I ever passed someone with an 02M, I'd down shift to 5th. Sounds like the one guy you've talked to either has unrealistic expectations or doesn't know how these VW diesels work.

Even my father has said "wow, this thing needs a lot of rpms for a diesel". Well, when you are a 1.9L 4-pot, rpms and boost are just about all you have!

 

[Seatman]

I've heard from a couple of friends who don't like the gearing as much too, the 3rd and 4th are just in the wrong place sometimes and the only benefit seems to be motorway cruising with 6th.

 

[mrvermin]

I have had the 02M in my car for a while now and I really like it, mind you I do not have a LSD installed.

Driving impressions,

Inner City: in the inner city where speeds are slow (approx 40 to 60 k/ph) I can keep it in 3rd and not have to bother changing out. Acceleration between those speeds is great (with my currrent list of mods ).

Outer roads: At speeds between 70 and 90 k/ph I can leave it in 4th and cruise fine with good pasing potential. I can even accelerate through a highway onramp up to 110 k/ph (or higher) before going into 5th

Highways: if just cruising I can put it into 6th at about 110 k/ph and leave it. At 120 k/ph the rpm's are about 2000 and there is enough passing power so as to not have to downshift into 5th. The only reason I would use 5th on the highway is for "Spirited Driving Pleasure"

Now bear in mind that in Canada, most inner city road speeds are either 40 k/ph (25mph) or 60 k/ph (37mph), and Outer roads are either 70 k/ph (44mph) or 80 k/ph (50mph) while Highways max speed limits are 100 k/ph (62mph)..

In Ontario we also have the 150 over and you Loose it, so if the sign says 100 k/ph (62mph) and you go 150 k/ph (93mph), you loose your car, license and get a $10,000 fine on the spot....

MrVermin

 

[boertje]

I have 4 cars with the 02M. We usually only use the 6th gear if 70 mph and over and shift down on steep grades and to pass if needed. Running Malone stage 2 and various nozzles types. Personally I think the gearing is ideal to the point that I do not ever want another 5 speed with my type of driving which is mostly freeway.

 

[Fix_Until_Broke]

I put 160k on a 02J 5 speed, ~30k stock, ~100k miles with a 0.681 5th gear and ~30K with the 0.681 + 205/70/15's.

I've put ~10k miles on my 02M with Wavetrac thus far with the 205/70/15's

To sum it up, the 02M is like a stock 02J with another gear with perfect spacing and peace of mind that it won't blow up. 6th is a highway gear only. I'll use it down to ~50 MPH on level roads, but typically at 55+. It's a very expensive option (~$5k all done). I'm not able to compare MPG's between the two since an engine rebuild was done at the same time (different compression ratio, nozzles, porting, cam timing, transmission, etc)

I've run 3 seperate tunes (RC6, RC5, TDTuning) - all of them "out of the box" (no fine tuning done with any of the tunes). RC6 is by far the most responsive at low RPM's. The cruise control is much better with RC6 than the others, R520's help that a lot as well compared to PP502's

Below is a gearing comparison with 205/70/15 tires

And then from my previous dyno data (before the 02M), I plotted drive force for each gear. I'm making more power now, but the comparison is what's important.

 

[3L3M3NT]

I've been extremely happy with my decision to upgrade to an 02M. It's great to have that extra gear for highway driving with the drop in rpm's and the increase in fuel economy. It's also great having the extra gear if you do any towing, so you don't have such a large gap between gears if running a .681 5th gear.

Another advantage is the extra strength of the 02M gears, so you don't have to worry about damaging your trans when you start adding more power. That was one more reason to upgrade, since I had more mods planned for my car and I had already destroyed the stock diff in my 5 speed. Which brings me to my next point about upgrading to a LSD, since you'll have the trans out of the car it only makes sense.

I'm not sure why your friend has to shift between 5th and 6th so much? Could be ALH vs. PD
Like FUB mentioned you can usually leave it in 6th till about 55-60mph, then you should think about down shifting.
My car starts building boost at ~1600 rpm and is probably hits 20 psi by 2000 rpm and full boost by 2200-2300 rpm.

I would definitely recommend upgrading to a 02M trans if you can afford it and have more power mods in mind for the future.

 

[Whitbread]

I've got feedback from one real, live, person who wishes he hadn't traded his 02J for an 02M.

The two issues he's had are:

1) The third wavetrac LSD is failing, and wavetrac simply stopped supporting him after the second one died. (I'm asking about LSD's in a different thread)

2) He has to shift out of 6'th a lot more than is either desirable or expected.

He's got PP764 nozzles, a VNT-17 hybrid (not specified; I presume it's a 17/22), and a rocket chip stage2+.

I'm wondering if the need to shift is due to torque not ramping up until 2200-2400 RPM with the RC tune? The whole point of 6'th gear is to get RPM down to the low 2000's, which realistically means 70+. If the tune doesn't get up on the torque curve until 2400 you've got to be driving pretty fast to use it.

So, any 02M drivers, please relate your experience; tunes, torque, RPM range, and whether you'd do it over.

I do 6 speed swaps all the time for people and people love them. Never had a single complaint on the gearing. As others have said, the tall 6th with stock-ish 5th is great for towing. With a tall 5th in an 02J, towing sucks as you either have to drive like a mad man, or scream the motor in 4th.

Your friend needs a retune with his setup. He shouldn't be running 2+ on a 17 or 17/22. Should be 4 or higher. That's a big part of his feeling the need to downshift.

On the wavetrac, I'm a dealer for them and have yet to see one fail or have a single complaint. I've installed many of them in tdi's with well over 200hp and abusive drivers. For your friend to break 3 of them with barely above stock power, he's doing something wrong that none of my most abusive customers have been able to figure out.

 

[TDI4evah]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

I agree with everyone that 6'th is nice with 5'th where it is - especially if towing. Personally, I think 5 gears is enough if they're spaced a little wider than stock, but it would cost more to pick 5 ratios I like than to just get a six speed.

I also agree that it's got to be a much stronger transmission - right through to the wheels. I'm not sure how important that is at the 160 HP range - but I suspect it's more the torque that counts where breaking transmissions is concerned. I've heard stories of people running way more than 300 HP through an 02J. They don't, however, mention longevity, and I can't believe an 02J can take that much power for, say, a half million miles.

As for my friend 'breaking' the wavetrac ..... I'm sure he feels the LSD is at fault. He has an RC5 tune as well, and uses it on trips or when he wants to have fun, but uses the 2+ for day-to-day driving. He shouldn't be able to break any LSD with a stage2+, especially one in the stronger 02M. Is it possible it's just not installed properly with too much play somewhere or not enough clearance somewhere else? Improper lubrication or something?

As for shifting all the time, my guess is that it's the tune as much as anything. I've read here, somewhere, that RocketChip tunes tend to push low end torque less and to be a little more aggressive in the middle/upper RPM's. Corrections to that understanding very welcome! If his engine doesn't respond well until 2200 or so he'd have to downshift at every hill if he's not doing 80 or more. That's, obviously, just a guess.

My personal plan is DLC1019's, VNT17, probably a stage2 cam, and a custom Malone tune to emphasize low end torque and no/low smoke. I know that setup could do 200 HP, but I'll gladly give some of that up to not smoke and pick up a few MPG.

Lastly, while I have so many knowledgable people here, is there any long term danger to the lower end from spending a lot of time at high torque/boost and low RPM? I don't want to have a quieter engine and a few more MPG and need to replace all the bearings at 100K.

You guys rock! Thanks for the advice

 

[Nuje]

I'm just wrapping up my first serious road trip (the full length of I-5 from Canada to San Diego and back) with my 6sp, and there's no way I'd go back to my .681 5sp. setup if someone was offering one. Not even close.
Apart from yesterday where we were driving around 130km/h (80mph) through California central valley for a few hours into a stiff headwind, I've been averaging just barely over 5L/100km (47 mpg(US)). With my .681, I never did better than about 42-44mpg. Plus, the lower engine noise, and also having that 5sp. for a bit more passing power on the hills. And actually, at 120km/h (a little over 2000rpm), I have plenty of get-up-and-go even on the hills, in sixth.

Now, granted, i have T4 nozzles, a VNT17, and a Malone stage4 tune, so there's a fair bit of additional power there, compared to a stock setup, but with my '02 Golf, like I said, you'd have to pry that 6sp. 02M from my cold, dead engine block before I'm parting with that bad boy.

 

[Ryan VW 91]

I've had my O2M for about a full year now and love it. I use 6th quite often as I live out in the county where im cruising consistently at 60 mph. The main reason I bought the 02M in the first place was because I ripped my 02J apart, and since I have plans of adding more power in the future the 02M gives me the peace of mind that I don't have to worry about blowing another trans in the future.

 

[79TA7.6]

I do 95% of my driving between 60-65 and wandered if the 6sp would be good for me. It is good to hear others are using it in this manner too. I want so badly to do the conversion, but justifying the $2000 is hard to do right now.

 

[03Springer]

I do 95% of my driving between 60-65 and wandered if the 6sp would be good for me. It is good to hear others are using it in this manner too. I want so badly to do the conversion, but justifying the $2000 is hard to do right now.

FYI, I had the 3.16 R & P installed in my 02J and while it was apart a Peloquin LSD. It turns 2200 RPM at 70 MPH indicated. So 65 MPH would be near 2000 Rpm and 60 MPH would be between 1800 and 1900 RPM. Somethng to consider. I am very happy with this setup, it works perfectly for me as I tow occasionally.

 

[TDI4evah]

Thanks to everyone for chiming in!

Nuje, that's almost exactly what I have planned - VNT17, Malone stage4. I'm still digging through the nozzle wars to decide what nozzle to get. There are many choices for the power level I want (~150), but I want to get the best mpg possible as well, so things like spray patterns matter.

I don't want to start the latest battle of nozzle wars, so I'm not asking here, but if anyone wants to PM me what/who to buy or avoid I'm all ears.

03Springer, I thought about that. When I look at what the whole 02M conversion costs me when it's done (1500ish after selling the old tranny) it's not that much more than the 3.16 and the labor to install it. I also thought about a bigger tire; the combination can drop RPM by about 15%.

 

[boertje]

I do 95% of my driving between 60-65 and wandered if the 6sp would be good for me. It is good to hear others are using it in this manner too. I want so badly to do the conversion, but justifying the $2000 is hard to do right now.

I just acquired a 2002 bug 5 speed that I will not convert to 6 speed since it is unlikely that it will see speeds north of 65 very often. Now, the rest of my fleet cruise the Nevada I-80 on a regular basis. I could not imagine going back to anything less than my 6 speed transmissions under those conditions.
If 95% of my driving was 60-65, I don't think i would do it. With that said, having a 6 speed in my bug does stroke my ego.

 

[79TA7.6]

Jack, are you picking up all of the Bugs that I see on craigslist all the time? Anyway, we talked about the 6 speed thing for me, not gonna happen. But damn it, I still think I need to drive one of yours just to say I have seen what the hype is all about.

 

[Fix_Until_Broke]

I do 95% of my driving between 60-65 and wandered if the 6sp would be good for me. It is good to hear others are using it in this manner too. I want so badly to do the conversion, but justifying the $2000 is hard to do right now.

If you're looking for the best bang for the buck for low RPM crusing speeds, get a taller 5th gear and 205/70/15 tires the next time you need to replace them and get all of the highway crusing benefit for ~$500. Yes, there is a larger gap between 4th and 5th, no it's not a big deal - I drove like this for 130k miles and towed over 10k miles (sometimes really big heavy loads). It's not as big of a deal as others make it out to be in my opinion.

$2k is where the 6 speed starts - a box of parts at your door - you have not installed it, no new parts are needed (CV boots, broken speed sensor, clutch, rear main seal as long as everything is apart, etc) and the potentially weak shift forks are not fixed either.

By the time you put a new clutch, peloquin/wavetrack, fix the shift fork, replace a CV boot or two, install it, etc you'll have $5k in it.

The question to ask yourself is, is it worth $1500-4500 more to have perfectly spaced gears and a much stronger driveline.

I like my 6 speed, but for a daily driver that spends a lot of time on the highway, it's hard to beat the economics of a 5 speed with taller 5th gear.

 

[boertje]

Jack, are you picking up all of the Bugs that I see on craigslist all the time? Anyway, we talked about the 6 speed thing for me, not gonna happen. But damn it, I still think I need to drive one of yours just to say I have seen what the hype is all about.

No, I'll leave a few for other people buy haha. Just send me a PM when you are free and I will let you drive one of them.
What fix until broke said pretty well sums it up.

 

[Judson]

For those of you have got an 02m, how did you go about acquiring it?
If it's used, did you get it rebuilt anyway?

I'm just curious: there's a guy selling an 02m on the tex for only $250 picked up. I might buy it and store until I get the funds for the rest of the swap. (i.e. rebuild with shifter fork, quaife or peloquin, clutch, and etc.).

TIA!

 

[boertje]

You must find out what that 02M came out of. You want the ones that came out of a diesel. Codes are DRW, EFF, ERF, FMH for the 02M diesel geared version. These were not available here in north america. You can get a complete kit from a vendor on this site (ryanp in the UK). I have installed a number of these and have had no issues and i have not had them rebuilt either and would not do so unless I had more aggressive tendencies in mind for my car. If you want new, boraparts can help you as well.

 

[Fix_Until_Broke]

I bought mine from a member who decided not to put a 6 speed in, but he bought it from RyanP in England. I had it stripped, Wavetrac installed, shift forks fixed and everything looked over by Matt Whitbread. There's a couple other places that do it (one in Chicago I believe and I think Scott DeWitt does (or did) them as well).

I thought that BoraParts had new 02m's for sale at one point - not sure though, otherwise I think they all come from Europe since they were never offered in North America.

You want an 02M from a TDI as one from a gasser will not be what you want at highway speeds (RPM's too high).
Ryan's kits come with everything you need (clutch, axles, starter, bolts, shifter, slave cylinder, throwout bearing, tins, etc).

 

[Judson]

OK, thanks all. Good to know!