02J Clutch Release Point Suddenly Changing and Slipping

[Chazhill14]

Hey everyone... I did a quick search trying to find something similar to this but I haven't really found anything that's the same as what I'm experiencing.

Background: 2003 Jetta TDI manual swap ~357,000 miles on engine and unknown on transmission. VNT17 turbo, 3 bar map, PP520 injectors, Kerma tune, 3in turbo back exhaust, South bed stage 3 daily clutch. About 70-80k on the clutch (If I'm remembering correctly... I don't have my maintenance book in front of me).

Scenario: I was driving home yesterday and stopped at a Bojangles to get lunch. Pulling out of the parking lot, I was letting out the clutch to get going and suddenly the clutch just dumped itself at the bottom of the pedal. It didn't stall or anything but I could feel something suddenly break or give out. I came to a stop at a red light and and I could tell that my clutch release point was now way earlier on the pedal release then it's ever been. Pretty much as soon as I start lifting the pedal up, the clutch releases and it does it quick. So I work on driving home and I could tell if I gave it any amount of throttle past driving like a grandma, the clutch wanted to slip (in any gear) but I couldn't smell anything. So I babied it home on the highway.

My thoughts: I've never had a clutch go out so quickly and in all gears especially since I was doing hard pulls (laughing a little because it's a 120hp car...) in 5th gear on the highway that very morning with no issues at all. It still shifts perfectly fine into all gears and nothing feels weird except for the clutch release point and the weird slipping. I'm wondering if a bad master/slave cylinder could cause this issue or if I possibly broke some fingers on the pressure plate? Anyone ever heard of something like this happening before?

 

[Nero Morg]

I have a South bend stage 3 as well, and when I initially put in in, the extra pedal effort blew up the hydraulics in the slave cylinder. Hopefully yours is similar. Could also be a bent release lever. At the time of clutch replacement, did you replace all the hardware?

I'd suggest trying this.

You can attach a brace across the end of the slave cylinder and the pedal should feel rock hard (I do this any time I have one out to prevent someone from hitting the pedal and destroying the slave).

I've had bad throwout "arms" and I've had bad DMFs have the same symptoms. Pumping the clutch pedal helped on the car with the bad DMF.

This was a measurement taken of a bad throwout arm:

This was after replacement (stock DMF in this car)

 

[Chazhill14]

I have a South bend stage 3 as well, and when I initially put in in, the extra pedal effort blew up the hydraulics in the slave cylinder. Hopefully yours is similar. Could also be a bent release lever. At the time of clutch replacement, did you replace all the hardware?

I've got new master and slave cylinder coming along with a new hydraulic line. I'm hoping it's something inside those that is messed up. I've never had a clutch system just go all at once like this so I'm shooting blind here. It should be here in a couple days and shouldn't take long to install. I'll check out what I can as well according to that post you linked. Thanks!

 

[PakProtector]

I can't help thinking that it is going to be inside the bellhousing. The clutch slips after the 'event', and yet it begins to grab right off the floor. That has the smell of a mechanical issue; hope your wishes come true and it is either slave or master.

Recall a few other diagnostic threads; with the slave out the fork should have some play. I'd want to take an extension( steel rod ), and push on the fork to see of the throw out bearing is still smooth. There is no harm to starting the car in N with the slave missing...you want to push on the fork( careful the pusher can't slip off into the rotating assy ).
cheers,
Douglas

 

[KrashDH]

I'll throw my guess in for the interwebs diagnosis competition. I agree with @PakProtector that it has something to do internal. Fork has failed or the retaining clip holding the fork to the ball pivot bent/failed. Also could actually be the stud itself gave way.

You have lost range of motion which really can only be traced to a failed slave or what we mentioned. Pressure plate (fingers) usually don't fail catastrophically like that, they wear our over time. You'll notice over a long while that the realease point gets closer and closer to the floor. But not all at once.

 

[Chazhill14]

Alright... here's an update. For all you short attention span, too long didn't read people... the pressure plate failed.

Here's what I found. Took the engine and transmission out. Couldn't find anything wrong. Clutch still looked brand new after 75,000 miles and 5 years in the car. Started looking more at the pressure plate and noticed a metal ring that goes around the outside of the fingers was sticking out more so on one side and not on the other. As soon as I touched it with a screw driver, I could tell it was loose and it was the culprit. I have no idea what it is, but it's obviously important and it's what caused the failure. I'll call southbend tomorrow because this isn't something that should happen on a mildly built car with a stage 3 clutch. I'll try to upload pictures when I'm back at a computer.

20210807_140436.jpg

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[Nero Morg]

Dang, well hopefully they send you a new clutch cover and reuse the clutch disc.

 

[PakProtector]

Dang, well hopefully they send you a new clutch cover and reuse the clutch disc.

Heck wid that...a complete replacement better arrive. I have some substantial issues with assembling used clutch components.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[03TDICommuter]

Alright... here's an update. For all you short attention span, too long didn't read people... the pressure plate failed.

Here's what I found. Took the engine and transmission out. Couldn't find anything wrong. Clutch still looked brand new after 75,000 miles and 5 years in the car. Started looking more at the pressure plate and noticed a metal ring that goes around the outside of the fingers was sticking out more so on one side and not on the other. As soon as I touched it with a screw driver, I could tell it was loose and it was the culprit. I have no idea what it is, but it's obviously important and it's what caused the failure. I'll call southbend tomorrow because this isn't something that should happen on a mildly built car with a stage 3 clutch. I'll try to upload pictures when I'm back at a computer.

20210807_140436.jpg

forums.tdiclub.com

i think that's the fulcrum point for the diaphragm spring. supposed to be captured and not move and obviously yours isn't in the correct spot. I have had diaphragm springs break on another make of car, but never had that ring get loose.

 

[Chazhill14]

Alright so here's an almost final update. I talked with SB and basically there's not much they said they can do for me since it's past the 12 month warranty period. They offered me a new PP for $400 instead of the retail of $600 but they said my clutch disk is worn 0.025" so I want to get a new clutch disk as well. I got pointed to a kit that has the same PP, throwout bearing, and disk as the Stage 3 daily but no flywheel so it's a little over $700 instead of over $1,000 for the whole thing. I guess a few hundred dollars saved isn't all that bad...

Also... They called it a "Pivot Ring". So I guess that's the technical name for it haha. @03TDICommuter, you were the closest!

 

[Nero Morg]

That's not too bad. Glad they're at least willing to do a little bit of a discount.

 

[Chazhill14]

That's not too bad. Glad they're at least willing to do a little bit of a discount.

Yea my thoughts exactly. They didn't need to do anything if it was out of warranty but they still offered to do something. I'm happy with that. I'm spending $40 more a week on diesel driving my truck over my VW so I'll get my money back quickly once it's fixed.

 

[PakProtector]

From a discussion with my son on turning up his ALH Jetta, 'Dad, it will just break sooner'...not that it would likely stop me, espescially not me at his age...LOL
cheers,
Douglas

 

[KrashDH]

Yea my thoughts exactly. They didn't need to do anything if it was out of warranty but they still offered to do something. I'm happy with that. I'm spending $40 more a week on diesel driving my truck over my VW so I'll get my money back quickly once it's fixed.

That's the whole reason I bought the TDI was to stop commuting in my Cummins!

 

[Chazhill14]

Final update everyone. I ended up pulling the engine and doing a lot of work to the car that was about due to be done anyway. I put another transmission in that I had (the old one was whining like the input shaft bearing was going bad), I put a new timing belt in, and I replaced the pressure plate, clutch, and throwout bearing. I got the car back together last night from all of that and everything is great now! No issues with anything so the new PP definitely fixed the original issue. All is right in the world again!